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Bach, Heels And Tierce Mixtures


Colin Harvey

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I am totally in agreement with Cynic on this.

 

Incidentally, with reference to Blackburn, it is not only a superb eclectic instrument, but a beautiful musical instrument too. Whilst I realize that eclectic can be a dirty word to some, the only other way around this would be to have buildings with several different instruments inside them for different repertoire - one for French Baroque, another for Bach, another for French Romantic, another for Howells, etc, etc! Eclectic organs such as Blackburn really do have their place, even if the accoustic there makes the performance of contrapuntal music rather "interesting"....

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"As for Casparini, we don't have many of his organs in the UK, so that's not going to run very far as a topic, is it?"

(Quote)

 

Absolutely right !

But then, why play Bach in the UK at all ?

(You should be content with.....Ahem... :) )

Pierre

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===========================

 

Another sad fact, is that I've never heard a modern Mander organ. Have our hosts ever built anything in the North?

 

The only Mander organs I've ever played were the re-built/restored instruments at Sheffield Cathedral, Adlington Hall and St Philip's, Salford, and they're all going back a fair while in the history of the company.

 

MM

 

The new small 2 manual Mander at St Gile Cripplegate in the City of London is a must for anyone who is sceptical about (some at least) UK organ building. Superbly constructed, marvellous to look at and from a small number of stops a huge pallet of tonal possibilities is available. Look on our host's website for details & pipe scales etc.

 

From another builder (and despite some statements made above) I would also suggest we all watch with anticipation what is being done at Worcester at present. Check out the photos for a start.

 

AJJ

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Goede middag allemaal

 

[Deleted by moderator] I have no doubt that his former organ was ill-suited to its job and was purchased more from a stylistically idealistic point of view with insufficient understanding of its liturgical role. This has NOTHING to do with quality.

 

[Deleted by moderator]

 

Southwell in short:

 

1) The organ only serves the (fairly small) quire of the church, the nave is, acoustically, a separate entity due to the scale of the space under the tower. The organ does not have to accompany the congregation in the Nave, there is another organ to do that. Its primary purpose is to accompany the choir. So, why 50+ stops, 2 sets of strings, 4 manuals, fake 32s, a mounted cornet etc? Could it be, to quote Stephen Bicknell yet again,

 

[Deleted by moderator]

 

The organ could have had 25 stops, far more colour, a proper winding system, and still not have broken the bank....

 

2) Southwell were obliged to preserve the case of Mr Caroë, but as soon as you see the scale of the case you know that its far too small for 50+stops. Paul Hale and Nicholson knew this too, so they built an organ with no coupler chassis and no winding system, and shoehorned as many pipes into the case as possible. The result is a sound which is (sometimes unpleasantly) loud but, predicatably, has no breadth whatever.

 

3) The acoustical situation at Southwell is challenging, less than 2 seconds of audible decay time, and no bass response whatever. The organ needed to focus on its unison and sub-unison material (8' colour is, also, quite important to liturgical accompaniment in the UK?). Above a certain pitch the sound is intolerable. So the mixtures up to 29, 33 are quite ridiculous and SCREAM through the room. Predictably the organ has no 16' mixture which would have worked well in the circumstances.

 

[Deleted by moderator]

 

For the record, I've met Paul Hale a number of times, I find him kind, articulate and charming. I suspect he has achieved wonderful things with his choir at Southwell, they make broadcasts etc, which in such a rural setting seems to me a huge achievement. [Deleted by moderator]

 

"He does not have to like every organ but if he/she starts to list all those of which he/she does not approve, maybe s/he'll need a whole column because apparently there is hardly one in the UK that s/he finds any merit in!"

 

I ADORE:

St George's Cullercoats, Kelvingrove Art Gallery in Glasgow, St Stephen's in Edinburgh, Christ Church Port Sunlight, many other small Father Willis and Lewis organs I had the possibility to play. I know I would adore Lincoln, Truro, Southwark Cathedrals if I had the chance to hear them, (I'm smitten with the recordings). The most admired Romantic organ in the province of North Holland is a Nicholson organ from the 1880s in Schagen, 3 manuals, from a church in Worcester. It is utterly spellbinding. What do all these BRITISH organs have in common? The stamp of an organ builder with high artistic values building preserved to teach us, and future generations. Southwell does not represent a comparable artistic level to any of these organs.

 

The beauty of a forum like this is that while we don't have to agree, we can at least speak our minds and relay our experiences. [Deleted by moderator]

 

Greetings

 

Bazuin

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Guest Geoff McMahon
The beauty of a forum like this is that while we don't have to agree, we can at least speak our minds and relay our experiences.

 

The freedom to speak your mind on this forum is not a freedom to insult living persons (whether or not members of this forum) or attempt to belittle other participants or to indulge in what looked like deplorable professional jealousy. Hence all the moderator deletions in this topic this evening.

 

Moderator, Mander Organs

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I am totally in agreement with Cynic on this.

 

Incidentally, with reference to Blackburn, it is not only a superb eclectic instrument, but a beautiful musical instrument too. Whilst I realize that eclectic can be a dirty word to some, the only other way around this would be to have buildings with several different instruments inside them for different repertoire - one for French Baroque, another for Bach, another for French Romantic, another for Howells, etc, etc! Eclectic organs such as Blackburn really do have their place, even if the accoustic there makes the performance of contrapuntal music rather "interesting"....

 

 

============================

 

 

I'm inclined to agree with this, and the evidence for supporting the eclectic instrument is to be found in the musical success stories associated with many of them.

 

Without wanting to be controversial, I would suggest that the Bavo-orgel is as close to eclectic as it is possible to get without swell-boxes and heavy-pressures. I've mentioned St Moritz, Olomouc, which combines wonderfully the elements of "French" romantic sounds and has at its core, a genuine baroque organ of exceptional quality. There are many other examples in Hungary, the Czech Republic and now Poland since the building of some important new instruments.

 

Even a vintage monster such as Sydney TH is an incredibly versatile beast.

 

I just do not see a problem with eclectic instruments if they are done well, and Blackburn is a towering example of the genre.

 

What is the problem? Is it simply fashionable for certain colleges and universities to tread a very specialist and often extreme line, at the expense of musical effectiveness?

 

Blackburn is an organ with a superb Great Chorus, a well developed Pedal organ and a very complete Positive. Those three divisions are ideal for contrapuntal music, but the acoustic does jumble things up a bit. That is hardly the fault of the organ-builder or the voicers (Walter Goody and Denis Thurlow). If to this spectacular chorus-work were added French -style reeds and a modestly potent chamade, plus mild strings, and they blend beautifully with everything else; is this not a musical bonus, which makes the organ wonderfully adaptable and authentic "enough" to be utterly convincing musically?

 

Surely, one of the great lessons of history, (that should make Pierre's day), is the fact that the organs which Bach played were not instruments of extreme clarity, but instruments which included registers bordering on the romantic and distinctly colourful?

 

Say what we will about the wonderful North European baroque tradition, it is a style of classical instrument which is actually VERY restricted to specific repertoire from a specific era, and that is glaringly obvious when organists try to play other repertoire on such instruments.

 

Of course, all styles of instruments have their place, (even those by Hope-Jones), but I would much sooner sacrifice a little severity of style for a little more flexibility, and like Larry Phelps, I believe it is perfectly possible to build an eclectic instrument and yet not stray away from the ideals of the classical tradition.

 

MM

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============================

 

 

What is the problem? Is it simply fashionable for certain colleges and universities to tread a very specialist and often extreme line, at the expense of musical effectiveness?

 

 

MM

 

Hi

 

Given the number of organs per square mile in Oxford & Cambridge, it's perhaps not to much of an issue - as long as everybody doesn't go for the same style!

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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About "musical effectiveness", we might compare with "culinar effectiveness". We could,

for example, have all in one plate, and present something like this:

 

"Pâté de foie gras with oysters and salmon with beefsteak and french fries with a rice

accompaniment, with vegetables, ice cream, apple pie, all on the same plate with

chantilly"; served with a mixture drink made of white Marlbourough Sauvignon,

Stellenbosch Pinotage, Amaretto and Coke (all in the same glass also).

Effizienz !

 

Pierre

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Hi

 

Given the number of organs per square mile in Oxford & Cambridge, it's perhaps not to much of an issue - as long as everybody doesn't go for the same style!

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

 

============================

 

I would agree, were it not for the fact that some of the organs in Cambridge and Oxford have been built in a style which is wholly inappropriate for the buildings in which they are placed.

 

Others, such as Queens' Oxford or New College, are absolutely priceless.

 

Without naming names, there have been times when even I have found myself yearning for the sound of an Arthur Harrison organ rather than an imported one, and a choir which knows how to sing with some degree of restraint.

 

MM

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About "musical effectiveness", we might compare with "culinar effectiveness". We could,

for example, have all in one plate, and present something like this:

 

"Pâté de foie gras with oysters and salmon with beefsteak and french fries with a rice

accompaniment, with vegetables, ice cream, apple pie, all on the same plate with

chantilly"; served with a mixture drink made of white Marlbourough Sauvignon,

Stellenbosch Pinotage, Amaretto and Coke (all in the same glass also).

Effizienz !

 

Pierre

 

==============================

 

 

What's wrong with this? A culinary masterpiece if you ask me.

 

The Chinese would love it. In the Netherlands, they do odd things such as serving cold-ham and peaches.

 

As for the drink, have you never heard of being "Punch drunk?"

 

Bring it on!

 

MM

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"have you never heard of being "Punch drunk?""

(Quote)

 

What's this ? :)

 

In Belgium we say: Krimineel zat, Krimineeldoodzat, bourré,

rond comme une queue de pelle, plein comme la Pologne, etc,

etc, etc.

As for the meal, OK if you like it. We could imagine even better

in Belgium should you want -Have a good travel assistance!-

 

Pierre

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Dear members and moderators

 

I would like to apologise should any of my comments in this thread have been taken personally by anyone involved either directly or indirectly with this discussion. I have tried throughout this discussion to keep the discussion away from petty comments, however, clearly the moderator felt that that this could have been read in an offensive way. I believe the discussion about the artistic level of much organ building in the UK is long over-due and I'm clearly not alone in this. However, none of my comments were intended to question the professional integrity (which I have no reason to question!) of anyone either actively involved in this forum or otherwise. I have no reason, whatever, nor was it my intention to indulge in "deplorable professional jealousy".

 

Greetings

 

Bazuin

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"I believe the discussion about the artistic level of much organ building in the UK is long over-due "

(Quote)

 

I think the UK has never been "phased" with the rest of Europe; it was a relief for me, in the 70's,

to travel in Britain while Belgium was a "neo-baroque minds only" area.

But now if the fashion differs in the UK, this does not mean it is "better" or "worse" than ours,

nor has it anything to do with the quality of the work.

 

I think if we can suggest something there, from abroad, then let us help them to stick

to their own things, that is, the british tradition ( from the Renaissance to now, no matter

as all periods are interesting and important).

 

The problem is not "artistic level" ; what means "artistic level" ? Everybody has his/her own answer.

And a fact is both Belgium and the Netherlands are very interested with british organs, old or new;

there are excellent builders in the UK like there are in B and NL, and also some less well inspired

ones, like in Belgium and the Netherlands too. "C'est la vie"...People are the same everywhere.

 

Pierre

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============================

 

I would agree, were it not for the fact that some of the organs in Cambridge and Oxford have been built in a style which is wholly inappropriate for the buildings in which they are placed.

 

Others, such as Queens' Oxford or New College, are absolutely priceless.

 

 

MM

 

What are your feelings on the Reiger in Christ Church Cathedral? Am interested as my 8 year old Son is going there as a chorister in September. I will probably be hearing it a lot!!

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What are your feelings on the Rieger in Christ Church Cathedral? Am interested as my 8 year old Son is going there as a chorister in September. I will probably be hearing it a lot!!

This one divides people - I like it a lot, even though as a former chorister there myself I bemoan the loss of the previous Harrison (but not its crudely extended case).

 

Paul

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Guest Cynic
This one divides people - I like it a lot, even though as a former chorister there myself I bemoan the loss of the previous Harrison (but not its crudely extended case).

 

Paul

 

Of course, the Reiger also has a very much extended case - this one extends vertically in a very un-Father Smith way, the former just had a pot-bellied choir organ! The sideways extensions were pretty well managed, another such is the enlarged Renatus Harris case at Newcastle Cathedral where the enlarged case is quite simply the best thing about the instrument.

 

I am prepared to concede that the Christ Church organ is a well-made instrument and that the fluework is most effective in a wide variety of music. Once the reeds are drawn however, I cannot find anything there to enjoy as a musical experience. Those reeds might be fine in a resonant building, but IMHO in there they simply have a brash power which may give excitement but also induces ear-ache. They positively scythe through the tone of that very fine choir too.

 

This is not the only imported instrument where I have found this - another high-profile offender is the Klais at St.Lawrence Jewry. Pace others with much more experience of fine organ building than myself, I have yet to hear any imported from EU reeds that blend as well in small acoustics as our home-grown ones do.

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I am prepared to concede that the Christ Church organ is a well-made instrument and that the fluework is most effective in a wide variety of music. Once the reeds are drawn however, I cannot find anything there to enjoy as a musical experience. Those reeds might be fine in a resonant building, but IMHO in there they simply have a brash power which may give excitement but also induces ear-ache. They positively scythe through the tone of that very fine choir too.

 

Interesting. I have not heard nor played this instrument, but was there about three weeks ago having given a recital at Queen's College the day before. On the day that I visited Christ Church they were tuning the reeds. I thought that the reeds sounded quite raucous, and I wasn't in any way taken with them.

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Interesting. I have not heard nor played this instrument, but was there about three weeks ago having given a recital at Queen's College the day before. On the day that I visited Christ Church they were tuning the reeds. I thought that the reeds sounded quite raucous, and I wasn't in any way taken with them.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

 

You never did tell us what you thought of the Frobenius at Queens'.

 

I have been expecting raptures.

 

MM

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---------------------------------------------------

You never did tell us what you thought of the Frobenius at Queens'.

 

I have been expecting raptures.

 

MM

 

I'm sure you can guess what I thought of it, MM! :P

 

It's a gorgeous, musical instrument. Every voice is lovely, everything blends, the balances are perfect, every single stop makes a difference and everything sounds wonderful, apart from the Stopped Diapason on the Great which surpasses wonderful! And it is also one of the most intimate organs to play - it becomes a part of you.

 

Mrs. Gedeckt came into the organ loft with me on the day before the recital with the idea of seeing the organ before she went into town to do some shopping. Unfortunately, due to a slip up on the part of the organ scholar, we got locked in the organ loft for about four hours before somebody appeared in the chapel for me to ask to fetch a key in order to let us out. Well, it was unfortunate for my wife who was denied her shopping, but I was very happy to be locked in with the instrument for such a long time!

 

Actually, on reflection, it was unfortunate for me too coz I had to spend hours shopping with her the next day! :unsure:

 

Unfortunately, the day before the organ recital was the first time I was able to play a pipe organ in a couple of months or so after surgery (but THAT pipe organ - what a fine instrument to which to return!), so I wasn't quite on the form which I would have hoped to have been. Nevertheless the audience seemed to enjoy it greatly though. And it fitted my all-Bach programme like a glove!

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'Agree with all HG says above - 'had considerably longer than I should have had on the QC Frobenius during an Organists' Association visit a few years ago - it even made my playing sound good. Amazing immediacy of touch etc. We did new College too - 'liked that. Christchurch was a bit odd - not quite what I expected - though Clive Driskill Smith played it well.

 

AJJ

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I'm sure you can guess what I thought of it, MM! :P

 

It's a gorgeous, musical instrument. Every voice is lovely, everything blends, the balances are perfect, every single stop makes a difference and everything sounds wonderful, apart from the Stopped Diapason on the Great which surpasses wonderful! And it is also one of the most intimate organs to play - it becomes a part of you.

 

 

==============================

 

Not many organs are more or less perfect, but that instrument must come very close.

 

Thos.Frobenius really was one of the great tonal artists of his generation, but even by his own standards, I think he must have been very, very pleased with what was created at Oxford. In my view, "easily the best organ in town."

 

MM

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