Eight Stops

[Nick Bennett]

In 1897, a small church (seating about 150 say) ordering an organ from Harrison and Harrison got this sort of thing

 

Great:

 

Open Diapason 8'

Dulciana 8'

Harmonic Flute 4'

 

Swell:

Lieblich Gedackt 8'

Salicional 8' (from Tenor C)

Gemshorn 4'

Gamba Oboe 8' (from tenor C)

 

Pedal:

Bourdon 16'

 

Tracker action throughout. Three couplers.

 

The OD is so big it obliterates the rest of the instrument. The Gamba Oboe is a reedy flue stop - quite nice on its own or with the Gemshorn as a solo line.

 

There are at least two H&H organs of the same date with exactly this spec, and I believe I have found others (on the NPOR) with these stops plus a 4' Octave on the Great.

 

What I thought might be an interesting discussion is: what specification would you want nowadays if building a new organ costing about the same as it would cost to build the above specification?

[Pierre Lauwers]

The same with a Voix celeste.

 

Pierre

[Vox Humana]

Great Organ

Open Diapason 8

Tibia Clausa 8

Viol d'Amour 8

Swell to Great

Swell Octave to Great

Swell Suboctave to Great

 

Swell Organ

Diapason Phonon 8

Hohl Flute 8

String Gamba 8

Cornopean 8

Tremulant

Octave

Suboctave

 

Pedal Organ

Subbass 16

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

[heva]

This with a smaller scale diapason on the great and sub/super couplers.

[Pierre Lauwers]

This with a smaller scale diapason on the great and sub/super couplers.

 

....Or the same with an Open Diapason II of smaller scale.

 

Pierre

[Pierre Lauwers]

Great Organ

Open Diapason 8

Tibia Clausa 8

Viol d'Amour 8

Swell to Great

Swell Octave to Great

Swell Suboctave to Great

 

Swell Organ

Diapason Phonon 8

Hohl Flute 8

String Gamba 8

Cornopean 8

Tremulant

Octave

Suboctave

 

Pedal Organ

Subbass 16

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

 

Not bad at all !

Don't forget the 8' Quintadena with Hope-Jones style foundation,

voiced with a strong quint.

 

My own idea:

 

Manual I

 

Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason 8'

Dulciana 8'

Octave 4'

 

Manual II, enclosed

 

Aeoline 8'

Voix céleste 8'

Lieblich Gedackt 8' (wood, with two mouths)

Lieblich Flöte 4'

 

Pedal

 

Subbass 16' (from I Bourdon)

 

Pierre

[heva]

....Or the same with an Open Diapason II of smaller scale.

 

Pierre

 

Oh, that's what I meant.

[innate]

This discussion is making me feel a bit queasy. I grew up with a 1912 Norman & Beard with an almost identical stoplist to the OP, except with a proper Oboe (full compass), a Gamba (instead of the Salicional) that could slice cheddar, and a soft Salicet 4' instead of the Gemshorn. Tracker action (heavy) and a Swell Superoctave that was disconnected after it ceased to function properly. The Swell was not too bad, but the Great was hopeless for almost anything. Of course it was fine for practising notes but there was nothing in the sounds it made that encouraged me to keep playing.

 

It's been "modernised", which I'm sure will cause Pierre to shed a few tears, by the substitution of a Fifteenth for the Oboe and a Principal for the Great Flute (which wasn't a bad stop, just difficult to find much use for). Personally I would have put an 8' flute instead of the Great Dulciana. I would rather have had three 8' stops on the great that could be used in any combination rather than the stentorian OD and the characterless Dulciana.

 

The other thing is its size; it must be about 3m x 3m x (height) 4m. When I look at something like Streatley I am astonished and jealous!

[gazman]

Great Organ

Open Diapason 8

Tibia Clausa 8

Viol d'Amour 8

Swell to Great

Swell Octave to Great

Swell Suboctave to Great

 

Swell Organ

Diapason Phonon 8

Hohl Flute 8

String Gamba 8

Cornopean 8

Tremulant

Octave

Suboctave

 

Pedal Organ

Subbass 16

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

 

 

Mind you, you could have installed a Unison Off on the Swell - what a difference that would have made, and at what little cost!

[Colin Harvey]

It depends on the function of the organ. If it were primarily for choral accompaniment, maybe the schemes suggested above might be suitable, if limited for other parts of the repertoire. However, congregational accompaniment work really requires at least a 4' principal plus some variety in upperwork so I could not condone many of the schemes above. In addition, I think the value of having a half decent chorus on an organ should never be overlooked for large swathes of the repertoire. It is quite possible to come up with quite a respectable amount of subtle gentle colour with a useful stop or 2 in a swell box and a couple of well thought out foundation stops on the great.

 

As Nick seems to be talking about a small parish church setting with today's requirements (which are mainly congregational accompaniment with occasional, not-too-demanding choral work (we're not going to be dealing with a top-flight choir in 99% of cases here...), and a reasonable selection for a wide-ranging repertoire), my suggestion is:

 

Great Organ

Open Diapson 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Principal 4

Fifteenth 2

 

Swell Organ

Violin Diapason 8 (maybe stopped bottom octave)

Gemshorn 4

Oboe Gambe 8 (maybe from T.C. if space is an issue)

 

Pedal Organ

Bourdon 16

 

Swell to Great

Swell to Pedal

Great to Pedal

 

I think I could do everything on this organ - from playing a hymn with a full congregation to accompanying the annual Choral Evensong with Psalms and Stanford in Bb, to a Bach Chorale Prelude.

 

Those strongly voiced string stops that sound more like reeds are a good idea in small organs so I've included one here. They can be very effective and they're cheaper to make and don't need so much tuning and attention - so useful in a small organ that might only get attention once a year (if that). Without any reeds, tuning access doesn't have to be such a consideration in the organ, so it can be more compact.

 

Mechanical octave couplers are best avoided at all costs - they rarely work properly for very long (especially if we consider the likely tuning and attention of most small parish church organs) and they are very heavy.

[Guest Stanley Monkhouse]

Can I direct folk to NPOR N01300 St Martin Sherwood, Nottingham. I was organist here in the 1970s and 80s. It was most satisfying. John Ireland's chancel organ from St Luke's Chelsea, moved to Nottingham in the 1930s, and a fifteenth and a mixture added during the time of my predecessor. It works!

[Pierre Lauwers]

I think one day, in 100 years of so, a lad will write a book

about the "20th century Mixture mythology".

 

Some members of my forum asked me to organize a trip

to Angermünde next year, after the J. Wagner organ will

have been cleaned. Any takers ?

But be prepared to experience a schock.

 

Pierre

[AJJ]

Great Organ

Open Diapson 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Principal 4

Fifteenth 2

 

Swell Organ

Violin Diapason 8 (maybe stopped bottom octave)

Gemshorn 4

Oboe Gambe 8 (maybe from T.C. if space is an issue)

 

Pedal Organ

Bourdon 16

 

Swell to Great

Swell to Pedal

Great to Pedal

 

I think I could do everything on this organ - from playing a hymn with a full congregation to accompanying the annual Choral Evensong with Psalms and Stanford in Bb, to a Bach Chorale Prelude.

 

Those strongly voiced string stops that sound more like reeds are a good idea in small organs so I've included one here. They can be very effective and they're cheaper to make and don't need so much tuning and attention - so useful in a small organ that might only get attention once a year (if that). Without any reeds, tuning access doesn't have to be such a consideration in the organ, so it can be more compact.

 

Mechanical octave couplers are best avoided at all costs - they rarely work properly for very long (especially if we consider the likely tuning and attention of most small parish church organs) and they are very heavy.

 

Most of the organs I play around here are variations on this though with a proper Oboe 8 - as Colin`says, they are ideal for most things they are called upon to do.

 

AJJ

[Ian Ball]

Well I'm delighted with the organ I bought from Hall Green Christadelphian Church via Ebay last October, with a view to installing it eventually in our house. It was cleaned and rebuilt (unrestored) in the rear gallery of St Mary de Lode, Gloucester in June, by Anthony Hall and his team from Clevedon Organs. Very splendid it sounds too from its elevated position. Although the antithesis of the 18th century nave organ there (recently restored by John Budgen), the congregation love it and despite its gentle voicing, it is bright, musical and perfectly adequate in hymns. Under a choir it sounds much larger than it really is and has remarkable variety of colour and finesse.

 

The only addition I would make to reach the magical eight stops would be a Celeste (for home/choir use) or a 2' (for congregational use).

 

Great

Open Diapason 8

Clarabella (enclosed in Sw) 8

Flute 4

 

Swell

Gamba (bottom octave Clarabella, stopped pipes mitred) 8

Gemshorn 4

Oboe (full compass, heavily mitred) 8

 

Pedal

Bourdon (bottom octave mitred) 16

 

Few clues were revealed as to its builder, but some point to Wadsworth or Alex Young.

 

IFB

[bazuin]

Much as I can enjoy the kind of organs which started this thread, for multum in parvo organ building, Cavaille-Coll takes some beating. No-one suggested this as a possible stop-list:

 

http://lammert.boeve.org/site4.html

 

To briefly translate some of the Dutch, all the pipes are on one windchest, and almost all are enclosed. Note the lack of pedal stops, but remember that even in C-C's slightly larger organs (often of 20 or even more stops) the pedal stops are often all borrowed anyway. I have played the organ in the link, its extraordinary. It was sold by some monks in Antwerp who'd had it for nearly a century, because they wanted something neo-baroque.....

 

OK, this organ has 9 stops, but my memory is that the Clairon is a later addition (it is operated from a pedal next to the swell box).

 

Greetings

 

Bazuin

[john carter]

Much as I can enjoy the kind of organs which started this thread, for multum in parvo organ building, Cavaille-Coll takes some beating. No-one suggested this as a possible stop-list:

 

http://lammert.boeve.org/site4.html

 

To briefly translate some of the Dutch, all the pipes are on one windchest, and almost all are enclosed. Note the lack of pedal stops, but remember that even in C-C's slightly larger organs (often of 20 or even more stops) the pedal stops are often all borrowed anyway. I have played the organ in the link, its extraordinary. It was sold by some monks in Antwerp who'd had it for nearly a century, because they wanted something neo-baroque.....

 

OK, this organ has 9 stops, but my memory is that the Clairon is a later addition (it is operated from a pedal next to the swell box).

 

Greetings

 

Bazuin

Extraordinary... and delightful. What more could you want in eight stops? That is a real treasure.

JC

[Vox Humana]

Well, I was wondering whether I might prefer a Basson-Hautbois 8' in place of the Clairon and perhaps I might want the GO Bourdon available on the Pedals, but I could live with this little gem very easily.

[john carter]

Well, I was wondering whether I might prefer a Basson-Hautbois 8' in place of the Clairon and perhaps I might want the GO Bourdon available on the Pedals, but I could live with this little gem very easily.

Have you been reading my mind again? Those are just the thoughts I had after clicking the send button.

JC

[Pierre Lauwers]

The unbelievable mistake we belgians made by selling this organ abroad

is typical of the excesses of the neo-baroque period.

In the 70's it was akin to a "...ism", complete with Goulags

for the dissidents.

Whenever organs are sold abroad or destroyed, we deal with a sick Orgellandschaft.

 

(I lived in Waterloo when the Hyppolite Loret organ there was sold in the Netherlands (1).

Many others followed).

 

(1) The Loret organ was replaced with a Philicorda toaster, which "at least permits to play Bach".

No, this wasn't a belgian joke. They meant it seriously.

 

Pierre

[notebasher]

Much as I can enjoy the kind of organs which started this thread, for multum in parvo organ building, Cavaille-Coll takes some beating. No-one suggested this as a possible stop-list:

 

http://lammert.boeve.org/site4.html

 

To briefly translate some of the Dutch, all the pipes are on one windchest, and almost all are enclosed. Note the lack of pedal stops, but remember that even in C-C's slightly larger organs (often of 20 or even more stops) the pedal stops are often all borrowed anyway. I have played the organ in the link, its extraordinary. It was sold by some monks in Antwerp who'd had it for nearly a century, because they wanted something neo-baroque.....

 

OK, this organ has 9 stops, but my memory is that the Clairon is a later addition (it is operated from a pedal next to the swell box).

 

Greetings

 

Bazuin

 

Your post reminded me of this organ, a bit larger admittedly but one I've always enjoyed listening to

 

Orgue de Chœur, Rouen Cathedral:-

 

 

Cet instrument est dû à CAVAILLE-COLL qui, en 1896, l'installait dans le salon d'Albert DUPRE, père de Marcel DUPRE.

Les 11 jeux sont répartis sur 2 claviers manuels de 56 touches et un pédalier de 32 marches.

Les transmissions des notes et des jeux sont mécaniques.

 

Ce joli petit instrument a été offert à la Cathédrale par Marcel DUPRE en 1945, en remplacement de l'orgue DUCROQUET qu'un bombardement avait détruit en 1944.

 

La titulaire actuelle de cet instrument est Monika BEUZELIN-DABROWSKA qui succède à Annette AUBERT et à Jules LAMBERT, en poste pendant plus de 60 ans.

 

Composition :

 

Grand Orgue

 

Montre 8

Bourdon 8

Prestant 4

 

Récit expressif

 

Cor de nuit 8

Dulciane 8

Unda maris 8

Flûte 4

Trompette 8

Basson-hautbois 8

 

Pédale

 

Soubasse 16

Basson 16

 

 

 

 

http://www.saint-evode.com/3g-nd.htm to listen to this follow the link to Monika Dabrowska-Beuzelin at the bottom. This really is some organ for its size, I particularly enjoyed the playing of Jules Lambert, quite a few years ago now. There could be worse models than this for a small organ IMHO.

 

 

R.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Another possibility, but with nine stops, would be a flemish

baroque organ in a minimalist version:

(Orthograph quite variable!)

 

Holpype 8'

Prestant 4'

Fluyte 4'

Nasard 3'

Octave 2'

Terts 1 3/5' (not as wide as in french organs!)

Mixtuur 3r

Cornet 4 or 5r

Trompet

(Rossignol, tremblant)

 

Pedal: 12 pull-downs !

 

You would not believe how much music one can play on such an organ !

A perfectlly worthwhile option.

 

Pierre

[gazman]

Pedal: 12 pull-downs !

 

You would not believe how much music one can play on such an organ !

 

But not much of the best of the organ's repertoire? Bach, Franck?

[Pierre Lauwers]

But not much of the best of the organ's repertoire? Bach, Franck?

 

"Best" ?

 

There were many music sheets written before Bach !

And even after him, up to 1850, 9 organs built in Europe

out of 10 resembled my example. And, mind you, there

were even organists who played them...

 

Pierre

[heva]

These organs can play a lot; I've played 10 years on a (very late) 1-man. flemish baroque organ (Delhaye 1823). I've never missed the 2nd manual and/or separate pedal many colleagues said to prefer/need, the composition:

 

Prestant 16 disc.

Bourdon 16

Prestant 8

Holpijp 8

Quintadeen 8

Prestant 4

Fluit 4

Nasard 2 2/3

Octaaf 2

Veldfluit 2

Mixtuur V

Cornet V

Trompet 8 disc.

Trompet 8 bas

Clairon 4 bas.

Hobo 8 disc. (reserv.)

[Pierre Lauwers]

We both, Heva and myself, forgot to mention some stops

are divided between bass and treble, which increases

the versatility. For example:

 

Nasard Bass & treble

Terts Bass & treble

Trompet Bass & treble

 

While the cornet commences towards the middle of the clavier of course.

 

Pierre