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Book on playing English Organs?


kropf

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I often approach organ literature from the 50's and on with care. Modern writing can put a lot of things right - so is there anything more up to date on this subject?

 

There were a lot of strange ideas about organ accompaniment appearing in the 50's and 60's, which can be proved by recordings, compositions and organ building from the period. Especially organ building in North America (Britain didn't exactly have much money for organ building in the 50's though some do of course exist. With neo-classical ideas starting to take hold, but mostly very Edwardian performance styles prevailing - it must have been a strange mixture.

 

Look at organs like - McEwan hall edinburgh. Willis 3 with essentially a positive instead of choir. Except it isn't really - just a collection of soft mutations. Couple this to compositions like JH Dixons 'baroque suite' which has mutations indicated in the registration instructions, but to be used in a very un-baroque way!! Also recordings like Guildfords Stainer Cruxifiction and Maunder Olivet to Calvary from the 60's which demonstrates a bit of mutation use in victorian music. This proves that things were changing, whilst most of the older practices remained.

 

Therefore - when the advice about not using to many 8 foots and not always using sw-gt, not using too much full swell etc is presented - I for one take it with a pinch of salt. I'd be much more interested in knowing how they accompanied in the pre war years. So is there any pre war literature on this subject ?

 

In my humble opinion, a lot of the badly registered accompaniments I've heard around come from people trying to register edwardian / victorian music in a way that they were taught to do so 30 - 40 years ago when classical ideas were in full swing. Too much upper work, thin choruses (ie 8,4,2 rather than 8,8,8,4) and poor use of the expression pedal all seem to be common failings...

 

What to do about it? Make sure we observe the great cathedral organists of today! The art of beautifully registered accompaniments lives strong. One can learn so much through listening. In fact - learning to register accompaniments is probably one of the best exercises for the organ pupil in my opinion. The registration changes are much more complex than in most repertoire, must always be subtle and smooth, and require great care of panning and execution. Learning to piston push your way though Stanford can teach you a huge amount about registering repertoire effectively.

 

 

best wishes - I need some sleep now. CD

As these books were published in 1949/1950 by authors aged 80 and 65 respectively, they are to all intents and purposes 'pre war literature' and so are innocent of the strictures you are charging them with. If you look at Conway's Handel score the registrations are all deliverable on a modest H&H or Willis from 1900 ish (no mixtures, only mutation a Gt 12th - and then just once for the hallelujah chorus). The metronome speeds are also miles away from the neo-Baroque.

 

I haven't found much other writing from this period than the odd (more recent) analysis of piston settings eg Southwark) - all of which fit with what Dixon & Conway wrote. I suspect this method of registering was largely a tradition that was passed on orally rather than published and is not quite what we now hear it to have been.

 

I would also suggest that rather than piston pushing one might learn a lot more by registering Stanford by hand (as he had to in general), restricting oneself to what was available at Trinity College when he was there, and analysing his published registrations - many of which call for the player to add Sw-Gt well into the piece (though it is not alwys clear when to remove it!). The best registrants I have have heard/seen always seem to have one hand on the stop jamb .....

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I haven't found much other writing from this period than the odd (more recent) analysis of piston settings eg Southwark) - all of which fit with what Dixon & Conway wrote.

Details of the Southwark combinations are printed in the 1909 "Grove" volume I linked to above (p.593 of the pdf file).

 

I suspect this method of registering was largely a tradition that was passed on orally rather than published and is not quite what we now hear it to have been.
This could well be. An elderly friend who began having organ lessons in 1935 once took me to task for using a diapason chorus on its own. For him an 8' diapason was never heard without the Stopped Diapason or 8' flute and, I suspect, similarly at 4' pitch. "I received very firm instructions," he wrote, "that one should start a build-up with the softest 8′ flue and then add 8′ flute, 8′ diapason, 4′ flute, 4′ diapason and Fifteenth – and one never thought of subtracting any stops on the way." The object was essentially to add stops in the order that produced the smoothest possible crescendo and it was up to the player to work out what was best on each organ. This meant that the Great Principal would come on fairly late in the procedure and the 2' stops and Mixtures quite possibly not at all because many players did not believe in such squeaky things. I guess the advice about never subtracting stops during a build up is logical enough when you consider you would inevitably need them again during any subsequent decrescendo.
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I would also suggest that rather than piston pushing one might learn a lot more by registering Stanford by hand (as he had to in general), restricting oneself to what was available at Trinity College when he was there, and analysing his published registrations - many of which call for the player to add Sw-Gt well into the piece (though it is not always clear when to remove it!). The best registrants I have have heard/seen always seem to have one hand on the stop jamb .....

 

===========================

 

 

Indeed yes, this is perfectly possible for many choral and organ-works. I recall accompanying a very fine choir singing Stanford in C with a two manual extension organ devoid of pistons, and with well practised dexterity, it was possible to make lighting changes of registration in the space of time required to take a lung-full of air.

 

The art of hand-registration is very much an art in itself, and I know of one theatre organist (for example), who tends to hand register everything, even when confronted with 200 + tabs.

 

Of course, it was always fun to watch Francis Jackson accompany the psalms at York, and many was the time he would elbow stops in, or walk around the stops like a manic spider; flicking this and that out at astonishing speed: sometimes pushing in stops with a thumb while simultaneously drawing stops with the fingers.

 

Wonderful to behold and admire!

 

The only thing I've seen comparable was the secretary of the school I attended, who could hold a conversation while typing, then continue typing with one hand while drawing open a filing cabinet and pulling out the relevant piece of paper.

 

 

MM

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Details of the Southwark combinations are printed in the 1909 "Grove" volume I linked to above (p.593 of the pdf file).

 

This could well be. An elderly friend who began having organ lessons in 1935 once took me to task for using a diapason chorus on its own. For him an 8' diapason was never heard without the Stopped Diapason or 8' flute and, I suspect, similarly at 4' pitch. "I received very firm instructions," he wrote, "that one should start a build-up with the softest 8′ flue and then add 8′ flute, 8′ diapason, 4′ flute, 4′ diapason and Fifteenth – and one never thought of subtracting any stops on the way." The object was essentially to add stops in the order that produced the smoothest possible crescendo and it was up to the player to work out what was best on each organ. This meant that the Great Principal would come on fairly late in the procedure and the 2' stops and Mixtures quite possibly not at all because many players did not believe in such squeaky things. I guess the advice about never subtracting stops during a build up is logical enough when you consider you would inevitably need them again during any subsequent decrescendo.

 

===================================

 

 

Another interesting comment which seems to agree with what I would do playing the organ at Halifax Parish Church. To obtain the seamless crescendo, it would start with Sw-Gt coupled, with perhaps just 8ft stops drawn on the Swell and the box closed, with just a single 8ft Flute on the Great. As the Swell box opens, the 4ft Flute is added and the box partially shut down again as Swell Piston 3 draws 8ft and 4ft Diapason/Flute stops. The process starts again, with the 2nd 8ft Diapason added to the 8ft and 4ft Flute, as the Swell box opens once more. The process continues with progressive power and brilliance being added to increasing fundamental and octave registers on the Great; after which, the heavier Great mixture and reeds complete the process of reaching 'fff.' Naturally, at all stages, appropriate pedal basses are dawn, (usually coupled to the swell organ at the very least). This is why many larger Harrison organs have a stop labelled "Pedal pistons on Swell Pistons," in addition to the more usual "Great and Pedal combinations coupled" stop.

 

Generally speaking, I don't think even the 2ft Great Fifteenth would ever be drawn for choral works, and the Swell Mixture and Reeds would be more than enough.

 

In the English way, the Swell organ is often quite dominant in terms of colour; especially on instruments built during the Edwardian period. (Many Victorian organs had much weaker Swell divisions). More importantly perhaps, the Swell organ is designed to blend fully with the Great, and that is especially true of organs by Willis and Arthur Harrison. So the Swell provides reed power on the one hand, and a restrained brilliance on the other; both of which may be tempered and balanced against the sound of the choral resources by judicious use of the Swell box.

 

I've found a few YouTube examples to demonstrate this, but I haven't sorted them yet. When I do, I'll edit this post and add them.

 

 

 

 

 

MM

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Indeed yes, this is perfectly possible for many choral and organ-works. I recall accompanying a very fine choir singing Stanford in C with a two manual extension organ devoid of pistons, and with well practised dexterity, it was possible to make lighting changes of registration in the space of time required to take a lung-full of air.

However, this might not have been so easy using the long-draw, mechanical action stop knobs most organists presumably had to cope with during the best part of Stanford's life. I often wonder how they managed.

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In the English way, the Swell organ is often quite dominant in terms of colour; especially on instruments built during the Edwardian period. (Many Victorian organs had much weaker Swell divisions).

Yes. I have recently been pondering exactly this in connection with this T C Lewis organ. The Great fluework and the pedal stops are quite magnificent, but the whole Swell organ is a wimp in comparison. It has been suggested to me that perhaps Hele toned the division down when he added the strings and the 16', 4' and 2' flutes, but I am not at all sure that he did. Why would he? Some "village" Willis two-manuals are (or were) similarly unbalanced. So it crossed my mind to wonder: is the more equal partnership between the Swell and Great a later development for which we can blame Cavaillé-Coll and his influence on Willis? Or isn't it that simple?

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===================================

 

As the Swell box opens, the 4ft Flute is added and the box partially shut down again as Swell Piston 3 draws 8ft and 4ft Diapason/Flute stops.

 

I call that technique 'clutch control' It's very useful indeed, and you can bring on that swell mixture or reed or whatever with absolute smoothness by nudging the swell pedal a bit before reopening. What I wonder is how you did that in the days of combination pedals only! - How else do you play the start of Balfour Gardiner's Evening Hymn smoothly?

 

CD

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There was a useful little dodge which modern setter systems won't do. Pistons set by switchboard had an 'neutral' option - if was out it stayed out, if it was in it stayed in. So if you had Swell 3 set to give you chorus up to mixture and the oboe on neutral, you could vary the build-up/cut-down by a bit of slick piston-pushing. If the oboe was out and you wanted chorus to mixture, you could do a quick 2/3, or if the oboe was set on a higher piston and you wanted chorus + oboe, you could flick another couple. I used to find this very useful at St. Magnus Cathedral, but these days it has a setter piston and similar dodges don't work. The old switchboards slid out from the sides of the console and you could actually change the settings while playing. I know it sounds complicated, but just occasionally it was handy.....

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I call that technique 'clutch control' It's very useful indeed, and you can bring on that swell mixture or reed or whatever with absolute smoothness by nudging the swell pedal a bit before reopening. What I wonder is how you did that in the days of combination pedals only!

... and in the days before balanced swell pedals.

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Yes. I have recently been pondering exactly this in connection with this T C Lewis organ. The Great fluework and the pedal stops are quite magnificent, but the whole Swell organ is a wimp in comparison. It has been suggested to me that perhaps Hele toned the division down when he added the strings and the 16', 4' and 2' flutes, but I am not at all sure that he did. Why would he? Some "village" Willis two-manuals are (or were) similarly unbalanced. So it crossed my mind to wonder: is the more equal partnership between the Swell and Great a later development for which we can blame Cavaillé-Coll and his influence on Willis? Or isn't it that simple?

 

 

=======================

 

T C Lewis was totally infatuated with the sound of Schulze in his early years, and probably remained so to the end. Think big diapason choruses, beautiful flutes and strings as well as terraced dynamics.....that was the Schulze style.

 

Armley is typical....hugely powerful Great, less powerful Swell, even less powerful Choir and extremely quiet Echo.

 

As time went on, the fashion changed, and it was Willis who showed the way forward with the powerful quasi-French Swell.

 

This influence was felt by all, including T C Lewis, and in my limited experience of Lewis organs, the Swells became stronger.

 

Once Lewis was absorbed into the Willis empire, the German roots more or less vanished, but perhaps the organ of Westminster Cathedral is a fine example of Lewis style flues and Willis style reeds.....that of course being slightly controversial. However, the man who paid for it (John Courage) had owned and propped up the Lewis company for some time, and the original intention was probably to employ Lewis to build the new organ there.

 

That's the history in a jam jar, but I'm sure it's a lot more subtle than that.

 

Basically, the more powerful modern Swell Organs started largely with Willis, (there were others doing similar things in Manchester), and most people copied the idea in some form or other.

 

MM

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There was a useful little dodge which modern setter systems won't do. Pistons set by switchboard had an 'neutral' option - if was out it stayed out, if it was in it stayed in. So if you had Swell 3 set to give you chorus up to mixture and the oboe on neutral, you could vary the build-up/cut-down by a bit of slick piston-pushing. If the oboe was out and you wanted chorus to mixture, you could do a quick 2/3, or if the oboe was set on a higher piston and you wanted chorus + oboe, you could flick another couple. I used to find this very useful at St. Magnus Cathedral, but these days it has a setter piston and similar dodges don't work. The old switchboards slid out from the sides of the console and you could actually change the settings while playing. I know it sounds complicated, but just occasionally it was handy.....

 

 

=================================

 

 

The beauty of the neutral position was the fact that you could have, in effect, more pistons than those which actually appeared.

 

Take a Great Organ with three 8ft Diapasons and two 4ft ones (Octave and Principal). By setting the larger Diapasons on say, the fourth of eight pistons, it was possible to skip from 3 to 5, building up a thinner chorus; the larger Diapasons set to neutral on thumbs 5 to 8, so that they remained drawn right up to 'fff'. By flicking 4 and then 5, 6, 7, or 8, it was possible to remove them from the chorus. It was also particularly useful on theatre organs apparently, but you had to know the instrument well.

 

I suppose the multi-channel combinations have rendered this use of neutrals obsolete, but I still quite like them.

 

MM

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If players want to know how to play an English organ - go to good teacher. The same applies to an organ in any country. Any reference to pistons/combinations/swell pedals/multi-channel/etc. etc. have to my mind, not a jot of interest about how to play an instrument because they do nothing for the making of music but just for the enabling. Fingers, feet, ears and musical taste (which changes just like taste in the design of most worldly articles from any age) is what needs to inculcated into the receptive mind of the musician. You can write books until the cows come home and when the next change in musical taste comes along they are then relegated to the shelves as historical documents. From Père Mersenne onwards we have the most remarkable documents but are to us now knowledgeable sources which must always be at hand. See how the Highway code has seen changes over the years. The high-tech gizmo's on present day cars still make them lethal weapons in the wrong hands. The same is true of organs although thankfully only music is murdered.

No matter how much is read and how much you watch, guidance into 'the paths of righteousness' can only come through sense, good taste, ears, technique and the discipline to practise all areas diligently as often as possible with proper guidance. We all never stop learning.

Certain 'wrinkles' in manipulating the British organ came about out of necessity, I often have thought. I could never understand why my first teacher when playing in the cathedral on a huge H & H and quite a distance from the choir created the 'plug-hole effect' at the end of pieces - especially big ones like the end of Stanford in C. But now I understand that it was the only way the choir knew when to stop as he firmly only believed that the choir was only conducted when unaccompanied. Even for BBC Choral Evensong he would play perhaps for the Psalms and let the Assistant play for other things. This was tradition. How many Cathedrals today can you see the choir sing without a conductor? Times change. But the choir was at times stupendous and utterly musical as all the musicians listened and after time were a cohesive musical machine.

Being a good accompanist stems from being a good pianist in this age and after having played all manner of Duos and songs not to mention continuo works with figures. How can we play Fauré on the organ if you don't play the songs? Likewise, is it really possible to conduct just the Requiem without first knowing some songs? Singing some in unison is a wonderful treat for any choir attempting to put that extraordinary lyricism into the Agnus dei. or the Libera me, Domine. (Try getting folk to sing some - if not all - of the Trois mélodies, Op.7). I am sure the Soloist will have done so if he is worth his fee!

Even playing the piano has changed. Mendelssohn rather baulked at the inability of the great Clara to play a chord without spreading it - so to stop her 'ruining' his music he actually wrote Spring Song for her so it would sound as she normally played! I would hope that most here might agree with me that for us to make worthwhile accompaniments for the Romantic service music we have played the Songs without Words during the formative years - just as the '48' and the Suites and Partitas were the staple diet of 17th/18th Cent. keyboard repertoire for us before approaching that for the organ. I was totally banned from playing/learning the organ until over 16 as it would not be good for me! But I think it fine advice in retrospect but not at the time! After playing the piano for a concert in a North German city with Norman del Mar I spied an organ in the hall and asked to play it. To my horror I couldn't even get it to work except by using the 'rolling pin' as I called it. Mr del Mar said he could never have truly conducted with the depth of understanding without first being an orchestral player. The organ is so often likened to an orchestra and thus, to me, to bring it alive and to stop it being just an extraordinary piece of design that has been honed over a couple of millennia we must stop it sounding as mechanical as it so surely is. By all means read about it and dream about them from seeing pictures and the like. Just as music is dead on the page we must bring alive the great musical monster and make it is musical and sensational as we possible can. To the end of time, we shall never get to the bottom of it all! I find it so heartening to read here the passion about the instrument, but if I am honest, it is the very least of my priorities. I am always wanting to be lifted by the musical out of the impossible.

 

Best wishes,

Nigel

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If players want to know how to play an English organ - go to good teacher. The same applies to an organ in any country. Any reference to pistons/combinations/swell pedals/multi-channel/etc. etc. have to my mind, not a jot of interest about how to play an instrument because they do nothing for the making of music but just for the enabling. Fingers, feet, ears and musical taste (which changes just like taste in the design of most worldly articles from any age) is what needs to inculcated into the receptive mind of the musician. You can write books until the cows come home and when the next change in musical taste comes along they are then relegated to the shelves as historical documents. From Père Mersenne onwards we have the most remarkable documents but are to us now knowledgeable sources which must always be at hand. See how the Highway code has seen changes over the years. The high-tech gizmo's on present day cars still make them lethal weapons in the wrong hands. The same is true of organs although thankfully only music is murdered.

No matter how much is read and how much you watch, guidance into 'the paths of righteousness' can only come through sense, good taste, ears, technique and the discipline to practise all areas diligently as often as possible with proper guidance. We all never stop learning.

Certain 'wrinkles' in manipulating the British organ came about out of necessity, I often have thought. I could never understand why my first teacher when playing in the cathedral on a huge H & H and quite a distance from the choir created the 'plug-hole effect' at the end of pieces - especially big ones like the end of Stanford in C. But now I understand that it was the only way the choir knew when to stop as he firmly only believed that the choir was only conducted when unaccompanied. Even for BBC Choral Evensong he would play perhaps for the Psalms and let the Assistant play for other things. This was tradition. How many Cathedrals today can you see the choir sing without a conductor? Times change. But the choir was at times stupendous and utterly musical as all the musicians listened and after time were a cohesive musical machine.

Being a good accompanist stems from being a good pianist in this age and after having played all manner of Duos and songs not to mention continuo works with figures. How can we play Fauré on the organ if you don't play the songs? Likewise, is it really possible to conduct just the Requiem without first knowing some songs? Singing some in unison is a wonderful treat for any choir attempting to put that extraordinary lyricism into the Agnus dei. or the Libera me, Domine. (Try getting folk to sing some - if not all - of the Trois mélodies, Op.7). I am sure the Soloist will have done so if he is worth his fee!

Even playing the piano has changed. Mendelssohn rather baulked at the inability of the great Clara to play a chord without spreading it - so to stop her 'ruining' his music he actually wrote Spring Song for her so it would sound as she normally played! I would hope that most here might agree with me that for us to make worthwhile accompaniments for the Romantic service music we have played the Songs without Words during the formative years - just as the '48' and the Suites and Partitas were the staple diet of 17th/18th Cent. keyboard repertoire for us before approaching that for the organ. I was totally banned from playing/learning the organ until over 16 as it would not be good for me! But I think it fine advice in retrospect but not at the time! After playing the piano for a concert in a North German city with Norman del Mar I spied an organ in the hall and asked to play it. To my horror I couldn't even get it to work except by using the 'rolling pin' as I called it. Mr del Mar said he could never have truly conducted with the depth of understanding without first being an orchestral player. The organ is so often likened to an orchestra and thus, to me, to bring it alive and to stop it being just an extraordinary piece of design that has been honed over a couple of millennia we must stop it sounding as mechanical as it so surely is. By all means read about it and dream about them from seeing pictures and the like. Just as music is dead on the page we must bring alive the great musical monster and make it is musical and sensational as we possible can. To the end of time, we shall never get to the bottom of it all! I find it so heartening to read here the passion about the instrument, but if I am honest, it is the very least of my priorities. I am always wanting to be lifted by the musical out of the impossible.

 

Best wishes,

Nigel

 

========================================

 

I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with Nigel in equal measure; possibly the result of being largely self-taught, if there be such a thing.

 

It is very easy to forget those early years, when we would make up imaginary specifcations or listen again and again to recordings, trying to work out what the organist was doing.....it's all part of the learning process.

 

If you want to drive a car, you need to know what the controls do, where they are and when they may be used to best effect....again, an easily forgotten memory to those who have mastered the art, but one which every learner has to go through.

 

The organ is a hugely complex instrument both mechnically and musically: certainly at the larger end of the spectrum, and when confronted with 300 stops in America, I had to stop to think very often. What were all those buttons and pedals for, and why did some of them crawl down the side of the pedal-board?

 

I can say with some certainty that I would be lost on a genuine Cavaille-Coll or Schulze console initially, and the learning process would not be an easy one. I have played both, but only in re-built form, with different consoles.

 

Now all this discussion was instigated by Karl Kropf, who may or may not understand all the subtle nuances of playing an English romantic organ in the English manner, and that is as much about the technical aspects as it is about the musical ones. I wouldn't know where to start on a big Steinmeyer or Walcker, and these organ consoles would teach me a lot about the romantic German repertoire, just as genuine baroque organs teach me about playing Bach.

 

I can't even agree about essential Mendelssohn, pianistic technique, accompanying Faure songs or learning the Bach 48, because I took a very different path indeed, which worked out all right in the end. My progress was almost entirely organ, starting with Stanley, moving to fairly easy pieces with pedals. I taught myself to play the pedals by working out how to play the "Variations de Concert" by Bossi, long before I could play a big work by Bach. As I said....a different way, a lot of listening to the masters of the organ, careful observation and a large amount of savage self-criticism.

 

Where I hope we would fully agree, is in the ability to move people with what is a very mechanical process.

 

Middelschulte said exactly the same thing to Virgil Fox.

 

As for Psalms, they so not need to be conducted. When I was a chorister, we took our lead from the head boys, and when I eventually filled their position, I would give the lead and others would watch for it.

 

Where I know that Nigel and myself would absolutely agree, is the fact that we never stop learning.

 

MM

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===================================

 

 

... This is why many larger Harrison organs have a stop labelled "Pedal pistons on Swell Pistons," in addition to the more usual "Great and Pedal combinations coupled" stop.

 

... MM

Forgive me for correcting you, MM, but in the interest of accuracy, this stop is always labelled (by H&H) 'Pedal to Swell Pistons' - it is not a transfer, but gives a second set of Pedal combinations, this time to match whatever is drawn on the Swell organ. Exeter Cathedral is one example. In addition, Alan Thurlow had this facility added to the organ of Chichester Cathedral, at the rebuild carried-out by our hosts here.

 

Pedant mode off.

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Forgive me for correcting you, MM, but in the interest of accuracy, this stop is always labelled (by H&H) 'Pedal to Swell Pistons' - it is not a transfer, but gives a second set of Pedal combinations, this time to match whatever is drawn on the Swell organ. Exeter Cathedral is one example. In addition, Alan Thurlow had this facility added to the organ of Chichester Cathedral, at the rebuild carried-out by our hosts here.

 

Pedant mode off.

 

 

===========================

 

Yes, my mistake....thanks for the correction. It's so long since I used them. :)

 

MM

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Dear Colleagues,

this thread developed much better than I dared to hope....

dear Nigel, I fully agree and understand what you mean. Well, I hope to own some taste und useful ears etc., and now, many days after starting this topic, I want to tell that it had to do with a performance of some Stanford organ pieces and certainly two of the wonderful Biblical Songs together with my wife (soprano she is, but I found it comparable to the originally intended tenor voice). And indeed, there are some indications of registration which need explanation or research on the organ(s) which CVS used in the period when writing this piece.

And I very frequently go through my growing number of recordings and Youtube clips wondering about the "how to" behind the music. The vocal labour is relatively easy to get through, but the accompaniment is a hidden thing. Short views of the organist, e.g. in the King's Carols Services, allow watching his use of manuals, of the pistons and the moving of drawknobs. If one would take time to compare those shoots with stills of the consoles, one could reconstruct the registrations.

Of course the primary way to learn all this would be to become a page turner and organ scholar, but this is geographically out of question for me. We went to five cathedrals and four evensongs in february, and for coming october our next trip of similar extent is scheduled, as I know, that printed information well not convince as a primary teaching method.

 

Most of you are aware that there are some churches/choir on the continent which dedicate themselves (occasionally at least) to hosting/performing Choral Evensong.

As we here in Rostock hope to be able to add our church to the list (though everything will be translated to make it a service, not a concert), as circumstances developed well for that the last four years, any learning on performance practice is very desirable for me. Behind first-hand real life experience, the youtube videos are much of help. So I will be very thankful for MM's commented clips...

 

Practically, some things (like MM's "clutch method" and other aspects of using the swell division) are known here, too, and have even been discussed in print. But for the music relying on divisional pistons, there is a barrier between our organs here and the English, though it can be overcome be the already praised hand-registration. Tonally, many instruments are quite different, of course. Mine here should fit not too bad to the coming challenge, because of his eclectic design of 1938. And if this organ really is fine at something, it is accompanying.

 

Thanks for the contributions so far!

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Dear Colleagues,

this thread developed much better than I dared to hope....

 

So I will be very thankful for MM's commented clips...

 

Practically, some things (like MM's "clutch method" and other aspects of using the swell division) are known here, too, and have even been discussed in print. Thanks for the contributions so far!

 

 

=================================

 

MM's struggling a bit!

 

I keep finding things, but nothing so far which is terribly valuable.

 

I'll stay with it and keep looking and then report back.........I thought it would be easy!

 

MM

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Dear Colleagues,

this thread developed much better than I dared to hope....

dear Nigel, I fully agree and understand what you mean. Well, I hope to own some taste und useful ears etc., and now, many days after starting this topic, I want to tell that it had to do with a performance of some Stanford organ pieces and certainly two of the wonderful Biblical Songs together with my wife (soprano she is, but I found it comparable to the originally intended tenor voice). And indeed, there are some indications of registration which need explanation or research on the organ(s) which CVS used in the period when writing this piece.

And I very frequently go through my growing number of recordings and Youtube clips wondering about the "how to" behind the music. The vocal labour is relatively easy to get through, but the accompaniment is a hidden thing. Short views of the organist, e.g. in the King's Carols Services, allow watching his use of manuals, of the pistons and the moving of drawknobs. If one would take time to compare those shoots with stills of the consoles, one could reconstruct the registrations.

Of course the primary way to learn all this would be to become a page turner and organ scholar, but this is geographically out of question for me. We went to five cathedrals and four evensongs in february, and for coming october our next trip of similar extent is scheduled, as I know, that printed information well not convince as a primary teaching method.

 

Most of you are aware that there are some churches/choir on the continent which dedicate themselves (occasionally at least) to hosting/performing Choral Evensong.

As we here in Rostock hope to be able to add our church to the list (though everything will be translated to make it a service, not a concert), as circumstances developed well for that the last four years, any learning on performance practice is very desirable for me. Behind first-hand real life experience, the youtube videos are much of help. So I will be very thankful for MM's commented clips...

 

Practically, some things (like MM's "clutch method" and other aspects of using the swell division) are known here, too, and have even been discussed in print. But for the music relying on divisional pistons, there is a barrier between our organs here and the English, though it can be overcome be the already praised hand-registration. Tonally, many instruments are quite different, of course. Mine here should fit not too bad to the coming challenge, because of his eclectic design of 1938. And if this organ really is fine at something, it is accompanying.

 

Thanks for the contributions so far!

 

 

My few pence worth:

 

As, I think, has been covered, the English style of playing very much depends on which period/style of music and organ are to be played. The piston thing, in my view, is a red herring as pistons are only as good as what is set on them (often, sadly, vertical choruses)! They can lead to extremely inartistic registration and the horrors that one used to hear eg. swell 8,4,2(mixture) coupled to great 8' flute - ugh! Those days, thankfully, seem to mostly be gone..

 

If we are talking about late 19/early 20c music, the important thing is to make sure that the fundamental 8' pitch is not obscured, balancing higher pitches with lower. The swell oboe (as with French Romantic repertoire) essentially goes with the 8' flues.

 

The Kings CD of Stanford choral music with James Vivian at the organ superbly illustrates how to register such repertoire. I would also recommend hearing Colin Walsh accompany at Lincoln. The old Southwark piston settings ( http://www.organrecitals.com/southwarkpistons.php ) are worthy of study The articles on the Gothenburg Willis: ( http://www.organacademy.se/blog ) (formerly just up the road from my Church at St Stephens Hampstead) make a lot of sense too.

 

The spec of the Abbot & Smith organ of Our Lady and English Martyrs in Cambridge, designed by Stanford is here: http://www.olem.freeuk.com/

 

Hope this helps a little

 

M

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What made you stop? :)

 

 

===========================

 

You're being wicked! B)

 

It never really stops, but you realise that the "inner voice" is not so much hostile as "amiably concerned," and it starts to say things like, "Well....that wasn't too bad."

 

Ultimately, self-critcism is a positive thing if it isn't allowed to become self-destructive, and I would think that all half decent musicians have it in abundance.

 

I recall the late Robert Andrews saying to me, "Some people make me sick. They get fat and lazy and self-satisfied and drink beer.

I'm a worrier and drink whisky, but at least I stay in shape."

 

Of course, it's time to die if you can't believe that the more you know, the less you seem to know.

 

MM

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=================================

 

MM's struggling a bit!

 

I keep finding things, but nothing so far which is terribly valuable.

 

I'll stay with it and keep looking and then report back.........I thought it would be easy!

 

MM

 

Thanks to mpk for his interesting hints. Dear MM and friends, perhaps to start with the already mentioned Evening Hymn by Balfour Gardiner

- a recording from King's offers a view of the organist making the decrescendo to the middle section. What exactly is happening there?

And: My OUP source of the piece does not show any registrations. Many recordings offer a tuba entry before the "Amen" - is this oral tradition or has HBG indicated this anywhere?

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Thanks to mpk for his interesting hints. Dear MM and friends, perhaps to start with the already mentioned Evening Hymn by Balfour Gardiner

- a recording from King's offers a view of the organist making the decrescendo to the middle section. What exactly is happening there?

And: My OUP source of the piece does not show any registrations. Many recordings offer a tuba entry before the "Amen" - is this oral tradition or has HBG indicated this anywhere?

 

 

This is my basic reading of what happens without having the King's specification to hand:

 

Gt and Ped Combs on so Pedal reduced with Great

 

Full swell coupled to Great 16, 8, 4 (2)

swell big reeds 16, 8, 4 off

great reduced in three stages to 8, (8)

swell reduced to 8 (4) oboe

swell (to oboe)

solo violes

 

Bear in mind that much is down to the balance of organ and building. A generous acoustic and fairly gentle voicing will allow seemingly seamless registration changes whereas much more precision is required in a dry building. The King's organ can be used fairly generously against the choir but if the same were done at my church they would be obliterated.

 

Also, the King's interpretation on the clip is a modern day one with a generous array of pistons at the disposal of the organist which would not have been available at the time this piece was written (1908).

 

I think the tuba solo is a kind of oral tradition. I imagine that such solos were not written in as relatively few organs have a tuba.

 

best wishes

 

M

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Thanks to mpk for his interesting hints. Dear MM and friends, perhaps to start with the already mentioned Evening Hymn by Balfour Gardiner

- a recording from King's offers a view of the organist making the decrescendo to the middle section. What exactly is happening there?

And: My OUP source of the piece does not show any registrations. Many recordings offer a tuba entry before the "Amen" - is this oral tradition or has HBG indicated this anywhere?

 

=============================

 

 

I'm in the middle of creating a detailed account, (as best I can), of what an organist is doing step by step while accompanying.....I had no idea it was so complicated!

 

I keep trying to set myself a deadline, but it should be up and posted sooner rather than later....bear with me.

 

With regard to registration markings, this is the problem faced by anyone who hasn't been through the Anglican system. Those who have, like myself, just know from experience and from things being handed down across the generations.

 

I suppose that's why tradition is so important.

 

MM

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This is my basic reading of what happens without having the King's specification to hand:

 

Gt and Ped Combs on so Pedal reduced with Great

 

Full swell coupled to Great 16, 8, 4 (2)

swell big reeds 16, 8, 4 off

great reduced in three stages to 8, (8)

swell reduced to 8 (4) oboe

swell (to oboe)

solo violes

 

Bear in mind that much is down to the balance of organ and building. A generous acoustic and fairly gentle voicing will allow seemingly seamless registration changes whereas much more precision is required in a dry building. The King's organ can be used fairly generously against the choir but if the same were done at my church they would be obliterated.

 

 

=================================

 

 

Even if the Arthur Harrison sound is now regarded as "old fashioned" in so many ways, one cannot deny the effectiveness of it when it comes to accompanying choral-music.

 

'mpk' is absolutely right about the seamless decrescendo and crescendo, but I would just make an observation of my own.

 

On almost all Harrison organs of that era, the fluework was in terraced dynamic style ie:- The great flues powerful (often VERY powerful), the Swell flues much more restrained, and the Choir flues very gentle. However, ALL the fluework will blend and interact wonderfully, with the result that even just the foundations can increase and decrease in power with what sounds like a seamless progression. In fact, the ONLY way a Harrison (or Willis) Swell stands on equal terms with the Great, is with the provision of very powerful, fiery reeds and usually a bright Mixture.

 

The organ at King's College is also unusual, in that the Great reeds (the usual 16ft, 8ft and 4ft Trombas), are enclosed in the Solo expression box; meaning that there is a sort of "super full swell" available based on these reeds; thus taking the expressive dynamic from ppp right through to fff.

 

As an instrument, one would never normally make an extended journey to attend an organ-recital at King's College, but to hear the organ being used to accompany the choir, is the stuff of international pilgrimage.

 

However, more will be revealed when I've completed what is turning out to be a treatise! :blink:

 

MM

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I think the tuba solo is a kind of oral tradition. I imagine that such solos were not written in as relatively few organs have a tuba.

It is an oral tradition, but, with respect, I don't think the reason was the relative scarcity of Tubas. Rather, from what I have been told, I believe it was once a quite common practice of organists when accompanying to "solo out" any short phrases that were sufficiently melodic and lent themselves to it. These solos could be soft or loud and in any part of the texture (though most commonly the top). It was all part of "orchestrating" the score.

 

Another well-known example of an unwritten Tuba solo is at the very end of Howells's Colegium Regale Jubilate, which I think stems from the old King's, Cambridge, Howells LP with Andrew Davies at the organ (and which presumably had Howells's blessing since he was involved in the recording sessions). The other place I have always fancied doing one is in the tenor part at the end of the Glorias of Howells's St Paul's canticles. This can be done if you play the Tuba part on the Choir, but it needs ample practice owing to the fact that it ends with you needing to play an uncomfortable fistful of notes with the same hand on the Great while still thumbing the Tuba part (there is no other artistic solution).

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