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Canterbury Cathedral & Manchester Cathedral, New organs


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#21 Martin Cooke

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 07:00 AM

Has anyone heard anything more about a new organ for Canterbury? I can't find anything.



#22 DHM

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 05:33 PM

Has anyone heard anything more about a new organ for Canterbury? 

 

Yes.  :)



#23 Martin Cooke

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 06:59 AM

Ah!... 

Is that it?!



#24 Neil Crawford

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:33 AM

has anyone seen this blog from 2006

 

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 01, 2006
My proposal for Canterbury Cathedral

 

 

This scheme is based on what is proposed for Canterbury Cathedral: a rebuild of the existing Willis organ in the Quire Triforium with the addition of casework and a fourth manual, a new four manual Nave Organ and the provision of an East-End Chorus.

The new Nave Organ is based on recent schemes adopted by Harrison & Harrison for new 40-50 stop installations in the USA. With regards to the fourth manual, given that this is a Nave Organ, I have opted for a Bombarde division rather than a Solo manual.

The entire scheme is based on the assumption that the contract is awarded to Harrison & Harrison. There are 3 reasons for this.

(1) Given that Canterbury have said they intend to recruit one organ builder to carry out both the rebuild of the Quire Organ and the building of a new Nave Organ, Harrisons are one of the few organ builders with the workforce capable of carrying out such an undertaking.

(2) Harrisons have demonstrated in recent years that they are capable of sympathetically rebuilding Willis organs, incorporating new material that blends in the with existing pipework. Examples I would cite include St David's Cathedral and the University of Glasgow Memorial Chapel.

(3) On a purely personal basis, as a long-time admirer of their work, I would like to see the Durham organ-builders be awarded this contract.

QUIRE ORGAN

PEDAL
Open Diapason 16
Violone 16
Bourdon 16
Octave 8
Flute 8
Superoctave 4
Open Flute 4
Mixture IV
Contra Posaune 32
Ophicleide 16
Fagotto 16
Posaune 8
Clarion 4

GREAT
Double Open Diapason 16
Open Diapason I 8
Open Diapason II 8
Claribel Flute 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Principal 4
Flute Harmonique 4
Twelfth 22/3
Fifteenth 2
Piccolo 2
Mixture IV
Fourniture IV-VI
Trombone 16
Trumpet 8
Clarion 4

SWELL
Double Diapason 16
Open Diapson 8
Lieblich Gedact 8
Salicional 8
Vox Angelica 8
Principal 4
Open Flute 4
Flageolet 2
Mixture III
Sharp Mixture V
Hautboy 8
Double Trumpet 16
Trumpet 8
Clarion 4

CHOIR
Stopped Diapason 8
Dulciana 8
Principal 4
Chimney Flute 4
Nazard 2 2/3
Blockflute 2
Tierce 1 3/5
Larigot 1 1/3
Mixture IV
Cremona 8

SOLO (enclosed)
Viola 8 (new)
Viola Celeste 8 (new)
Flute harmonique 8 (new)
Concert Flute 4 (new)
Piccolo 2 (new)
Cor Anglais 16 (new)
Orchestral Oboe 8 (new)
Corno di Bassetto 8 (new)
French Horn (new)
Tuba 8 (unenclosed)
Tuba Clarion 4 (unenclosed)

EAST END ORGAN (former Nave division)
Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Octave 4
Superoctave 2
Pedal Subbass 16

NAVE ORGAN (all new)

PEDAL
Double Open Wood 32
Open Wood 16
Open Diapason 16
Sub Bass 16
Violone 16 (Great)
Lieblich Bourdon 16 (Swell)
Octave Wood 8
Principal 8
Bass Flute 8
Fifteenth 4
Flute 4
Mixture IV
Contra Bombarde 32
Bombarde 16
Trombone 16
Double Trumpet 16 (Swell)
Tromba 8
Clarion 4

GREAT
Violone 16
Open Diapason 8
Gamba 8
Harmonic Flute 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Principal 4
Concert Flute 4
Twelfth 2 2/3
Fifteenth 2
Seventeenth 1 3/5
Mixture IV
Trombone 16
Trumpet 8
Clarion 4

SWELL
Lieblich Bourdon 16
Geigen Principal 8
Lieblich Gedackt 8
Salicional 8
Voix Céleste 8
Octave Geigen 4
Stopped Flute 4
Super Octave 2
Mixture IV
Oboe 8
Vox Humana 8
Double Trumpet 16
Cornopean 8
Clarion 4

CHOIR
Viola 8
Bourdon 8
Unda Maris 8
Principal 4
Open Flute 4
Nazard 2 2/3
Fifteenth 2
Blockflute 2
Tierce 1 3/5
Larigot 1 1/3
Mixture IV
Cremona 8

BOMBARDE
Open Diapason 8
Principal 4
Fifteenth 2
Mixture IV-VI
Grand Cornet V
Orchestral Trumpet 8
Contra Tuba 16
Tuba 8
Tuba Clarion 4
Trompette Militaire 8

Jeremy Jones 2006

#25 pcnd5584

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 07:59 AM

No - but I still wonder why no-one even batted a proverbial eyelid when our national cathedral lost its (admittedly leaking) 32ft. flue - yet at Gloucester, organ lovers were virtually threatening to chain themselves to the pipes to prevent the cathedral workmen sawing them up.


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#26 Colin Pykett

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:55 AM

I admire the intellectual capabilities (far beyond mine) of those who can apparently design organs by doing nothing more than scribbling down a list of stops in some room far remote from the building in question.  The late Lt Col George Dixon was one of these, as was his mate Cecil Clutton (and he could barely play a note, apparently).  I am glad that we seem to have moved some way beyond this dilettante phase of organ consultancy which was so prevalent in the Imperial British era of organ building - though there is still some way to go.

 

CEP


"You can never know everything about something. But you can always know something about everything" - Amit Kumar

 

www.pykett.org.uk


#27 David Drinkell

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 07:55 PM

It was a nice 32', too, of metal I think.

Dixon may not have been able to play, but he pulled together a lot of theory into a cohesive whole and no one can deny that the result, as realised principally by Arthur Harrison but also by every other builder to some extent, was a tremendously successful instrument in the opinion of the day, and one which is still infuential and admired.

Sam Clutton did learn to play in later life. I heard him play Guilain's Second Suite on his Mander organ at Blackheath, and he tried the organ in St. Magnus Cathedral during my time, having turned up unexpectedly one Sunday. In any case, he knew better than most organists of the time what various schools of organ building sounded like and his influence was good.

There are still some organ-playing advisors about whose idea of an organ is still heavily North German neo-baroque, and some organ builders who have funny ideas about specification and balance.

Although I'm sure Harrisons' would make a wonderful job at Canterbury, I very much admired the organ as left by our hosts at the last rebuild. It did the job it was meant to do very well indeed, and no one is going to tell me it ceased to sound like a Father Willis. It was a mistake to lose the Solo Organ, although the argument at the time was sound enough.

#28 pcnd5584

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 11:22 AM

It was a nice 32', too, of metal I think.

Dixon may not have been able to play, but he pulled together a lot of theory into a cohesive whole and no one can deny that the result, as realised principally by Arthur Harrison but also by every other builder to some extent, was a tremendously successful instrument in the opinion of the day, and one which is still infuential and admired.

Sam Clutton did learn to play in later life. I heard him play Guilain's Second Suite on his Mander organ at Blackheath, and he tried the organ in St. Magnus Cathedral during my time, having turned up unexpectedly one Sunday. In any case, he knew better than most organists of the time what various schools of organ building sounded like and his influence was good.

There are still some organ-playing advisors about whose idea of an organ is still heavily North German neo-baroque, and some organ builders who have funny ideas about specification and balance.

Although I'm sure Harrisons' would make a wonderful job at Canterbury, I very much admired the organ as left by our hosts at the last rebuild. It did the job it was meant to do very well indeed, and no one is going to tell me it ceased to sound like a Father Willis. It was a mistake to lose the Solo Organ, although the argument at the time was sound enough.

 

David, you make several excellent points - with which I would agree. I also wish that Allan Wicks had decided to retain the Solo Organ at Canterbury. Whist I take your point, I do know a few colleagues who have had to play choral services on the instrument and who state that it is really only a large two-clavier organ for this purpose - the Choir Organ is not quite so useful for accompaniment as it may be for playing some repertoire.

 

I can appreciate Colin's point regarding simply drawing up a desired stop-list for an organ in a building which may not be intimately known to the person drawing up the scheme. On the other hand, I can think of a number of  cases where a consultant drew-up a scheme (which was, ironically, nothing more detailed than a list of desirable stops, couplers and accessories) and which was built to the letter, as it were. In one case, the instrument was clearly inadequate from several standpoints, right from the day of its inauguration. It was necessary to spend many tens of thousands of pounds within a year or two, in order to attempt to make good some of the deficiencies. For the record, these shortcomings were apparent to all who played the instrument as first rebuilt; this was not merely some whim of a power-mad organist.

 

For the record, I think that the 32ft. flue at Canterbury was of wood. I believe that it was added around 1905 - again, if my memory serves me correctly, by Norman and Beard. As far as I know, the reason for removing it in 1978, was that the pipes leaked and were thus ineffective. Presumably they were past economic repair. Metal pipes would be extremely unlikely to leak - at least not in a way which could not be repaired successfully.

 

Whilst holding the post of Sub Organist at one of England's greater churches (not the one at which I am currently employed), my boss became objectionable and, as I felt, rather unreasonable for a few weeks. Out of spite, I did re-design the pipe organ on paper with nothing above a Piccolo on the G.O. and with a plethora of dull 8ft. flues on most claviers. It then occurred to me that it would be I who should have to play the wretched machine several times each week. Needless to say, the scheme was quickly discarded in the nearest waste-paper-bin.


Pierre Cochereau rocked, man


#29 Alistair McEwan

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:36 AM

Ive heard but not sure if true. Canterbury Cathedral have awarded Harrison & Harrison the contract for a new organ in the Quire perhaps including original pipe work?

Also Manchester will getting a Ken Tickell organ.

 

Anyone got any news?

 

 

Regards

 

 

Neil

 

 The completion date for the Canterbury H&H has not yet been made public.  According to Cathedral sources, the Manchester Tickell should be playable by Christmas 2017.



#30 swalmsley

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 05:33 PM

I imagine that even at today's prices this buys quite a lot of organ:

 

http://www.mancheste...ting-25-7200728



#31 Contrabombarde

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 10:29 AM

Goodness, that is a stunningly generous gift! Indeed, it's double the figure that the Cathedral originally had said a new organ could cost in a newsletter a few years ago. What will happen to the existing Harrison - is there much in it that is worth saving? How much of it still works? I heard it many times growing up but never played it, and always had the impression that it was a somewhat untamed monster compared to its more refined peers in Coventry Cathedral and the RFH. With such a generous donation, Manchester will have no excuse not to gain a world-class organ - and I have no doubt that any of our country's finest organ builders could deliver such an instrument.



#32 pcnd5584

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:53 PM

Goodness, that is a stunningly generous gift! Indeed, it's double the figure that the Cathedral originally had said a new organ could cost in a newsletter a few years ago. What will happen to the existing Harrison - is there much in it that is worth saving? How much of it still works? I heard it many times growing up but never played it, and always had the impression that it was a somewhat untamed monster compared to its more refined peers in Coventry Cathedral and the RFH. With such a generous donation, Manchester will have no excuse not to gain a world-class organ - and I have no doubt that any of our country's finest organ builders could deliver such an instrument.

 

Possibly so - but is the Harrison organ really that irreparable? Or is this another Worcester? From what I have heard, it sounds as if the intention is to dispose entirely of the existing instrument and start afresh. Whilst the present organ does have a somewhat unusual scheme (I thought that the stop-list immediately prior to its rebuilding at the hands of the Luftwaffe was better and more cohesive), it includes a vast quantity of almost certainly superbly made and voiced pipe-work. (There are, for one thing, two full-length 32ft. ranks - I wonder if these at least will be kept?) I cannot help but wonder if a rather cheaper solution would have been to restore and alter the existing instrument, replacing unused ranks - and those judged to be unsuitable for some reason. Surely it would have been possible to create a fine instrument from the re-use of much of the existing material. In any case, a fair proportion of the present instrument probably dates from 1952-57, since the previous instrument was grievously damaged.


Pierre Cochereau rocked, man


#33 GrossGeigen

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:51 AM

I believe much of the Solo is being retained, as well as a significant amount of the Pedal.

#34 pcnd5584

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:58 AM

I believe much of the Solo is being retained, as well as a significant amount of the Pedal.

 

Thank you for this, GrossGeigen.

 

However, whilst this does at least provides some re-assurance, surely there is plenty of material within the G.O. and Swell organs also worthy of retention.


Pierre Cochereau rocked, man


#35 Vox Humana

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:35 AM

However, whilst this does at least provides some re-assurance, surely there is plenty of material within the G.O. and Swell organs also worthy of retention.

 

That is as maybe, but with this sort of money sloshing around, where's the incentive? If you have a particular end result in mind, why not go straight for it with new pipework? I do note GrossGeigen's comment, however. I will be interested to see how Manchester use all this funding.



#36 sprondel

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 11:56 AM

Well, shouldn't that be an easy one? Do a reasonable, well thought-out rebuild/restoration for 1.5 or even 1.8 million, and set the remainder aside to support maintenance, a decent recital series along with the necessary PR work, an educational programme etc. If you spend it all on the product, and it finally sits there, not a single note has been played yet, let alone found its mark.

Best wishes,
Friedrich

#37 Vox Humana

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 12:21 PM

Yes, I was thinking they might invest a proportion.



#38 David Drinkell

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:51 PM

I hope they replace Norman Cocker's Tuba, which I believe was removed some years ago (there's another "Orchestral Tuba") and was in store at Durham.

 

Although I also believe that Cocker's Tuba Tune was composed for a different instrument - the Hill at St. Fin Barre's Cathedral, Cork.



#39 Stephen Barber

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:38 PM

I hope they replace Norman Cocker's Tuba, which I believe was removed some years ago (there's another "Orchestral Tuba") and was in store at Durham.

 

Although I also believe that Cocker's Tuba Tune was composed for a different instrument - the Hill at St. Fin Barre's Cathedral, Cork.

Out of interest, how much of it is Hill now?



#40 pcnd5584

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:41 AM

Out of interest, how much of it is Hill now?

 

Probably some of the pipe-work. The last time I played it, I was rather disappointed with the sound. Since then, it has been rebuilt. Whilst I can find a number of photographs of parts of the new instrument, I have so far been unable to locate a stop-list for the present organ. However, I think that there have been some substantial changes, including a new West End division and the re-siting of the Choir Organ, together with a new console. Does anyone have any further information on this instrument, please?


Pierre Cochereau rocked, man





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