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  2. I have not heard them all by any means of course, but quite a few around the globe. However my vote would still go the Bath Abbey Tuba Mirabilis 8' (20 inch.) It replaced the original HNB Tuba circa 1914 shortly after WW2. A few quieter characteristic stops were added at the same time. On his return from war service (RAF) Ernest Maynard had these installed. A booster blower was added at the same time for the Tuba. In the wonderful acoustic of the Abbey (including the stunning fan vaulting of course) the new Tuba sure rocketed around the building. HNB placed it so well too with the pipes just showing themselves poking above the main swell box, and voiced brilliantly. With the addition of the Solo Octave coupler it was just wow! But sparingly ??!! (Ha ha maybe!) I had the privilege in the 60s of taking the brilliant blind organist Andre Marcel, to the loft. He drew each stop in turn on the instrument checking all prior to his next day recital. On drawing the Tuba Mirabilis (yep after I first indicated the booster blower switch, he played a short passage! "Magnifique" was his very audible response!! I believe this magnificent stop was "tamed" rather (along with much more) by Klais in the 90s. Sure we gained some reasonable balanced courses, but still a lot was lost. Oh yes, I know I will be shot at dawn!
  3. Today
  4. Well, as an alternative to Widor V (and breaking the rule about playing individual movements from organ symphonies) how about the Finale from Vierne’s Symphonie 3, already mentioned? The big pedal entry there is, I suggest, as exciting as Widor’s - possibly more so as it comes so dramatically following a gradual build-up on manual reeds. But, of course, this requires a large cathedral or concert hall organ with the necessary resources. People who dislike transcriptions might like to reconsider in the case of W T Best’s arrangement of Mendelssohn’s Overture to “St Paul”. Again, it needs a suitably wide-ranging organ - and a virtuoso player! I have heard it three times played by Thomas Trotter. The same thing happened every time - there was an immediate audience reaction to the opening section. Twice was at Birmingham Town Hall, where much of the audience would be aficionados (and, incidentally, always runs into several hundreds - a full house is one thousand, and I experienced that once with people standing!), but perhaps the more telling experience was at the opening of the new Tickell organ at Manchester Cathedral, attended by all the great and the good of the north-west, Lord-Lieutenant and every mayor from Lancashire it seemed. It was a ticket event and I sat in the ‘additional seating’. I’m pretty certain that organists were very much in the minority in the audience of several hundreds. My impression was that many people were out of their depth, possibly slightly bored, until the opening bars of “St Paul”. The audience visibly stirred, and sat up! And listened! The drama comes towards the end of the Vierne, but at the very beginning of the Mendelssohn. Either recipe might catch people’s imagination.
  5. Brizzle

    Room 101

    Someone said, in the audience preferences thread, that the general public have largely been ignored, and I wholeheartedly agree. I think we’re probably at the stage where we need to concern ourselves less with what we think is good and want to play, but what our audiences want to hear. Given that the Classic FM yearly poll contains broadly the same repertoire each year, we ought to be able to identify some organ repertoire that the general public (and not just other organists) want to listen to. It’ll probably be the Widor Toccata and BWV 565 to start with, but if we can follow it up with well-written and attractive music that stands up to comparison with the best of music in other genres, then we might be able to begin to address our low audiences and the general disdain shown toward the organ and its music.
  6. How should a recitalist make an emotional connection with their audience? How can you create a sense of joy? A computer can play a piece perfectly via midi but I wouldn't want to go to a recital given by a computer. Likewise I haven't enjoyed some recitals that were note perfect (to my ears) given by an organist hidden away in an organ loft. One of the challenges for many organs is that the audience don't get to see the performer. Video relay can help but how many venues have a good enough projector to show a sharp bright image on a good sized screen with multiple cameras so you can see the hands and feet, but just as importantly the face of the recitalist? For me a good programme should blend familiar with the less well known and unknown and play to the strength of the instrument. A performer who lends their own interpretation to a well known work will help keep it interesting. (I think Olivier Latry's Bach To The Future album is brilliant). Finally it is a sad fact that nowadays many people have a shorter attention span than on years gone by. Couple that with the often uncomfortable seating found in churches could mean that some of the longer pieces of repertoire will have audiences shuffling in their seats. Some people say a recital should always contain some Bach, others don't like transcriptions. For me a good recital doesn't have to contain anything other than something that can make me sit up and say 'wow!'.
  7. "One could ask 50 organists for their thoughts on any piece and probably get 51 opinions. It's a very interesting discussion though." Yes, it is interesting, and the same seems to apply to any other discipline. Physicists and mathematicians are regularly asked to vote for their most beautiful equation. (FWIW, Euler's identity often comes out top or very near to the top of the list ... ). 'Beauty' pervades all human experience. It's fascinating that even in something so apparently black-and-white as physics or maths, exactly the same emotions are aroused as they are in music and all other endeavours.
  8. An interesting comment from Vox Humana and maybe as a player of organ concerts and attendee at pop festivals I can certainly identify with some of what he describes. Maybe not communal dancing and tribalism in my case but there is a difference where the music is part of a total experience. One also experiences this at the proms and similar events and I can’t help thinking that a problem with organ music stems from some organists. Events such as the International Organ Festival at St Albans draw crowds as do the IAO festivals etc. but many organists do exhibit certain ‘head in the sand’ tendencies and yes cliquiness regarding repertoire and programming. Having taught music to 11 - 18 year olds for 40 years I can attest to the fact that young minds at least are receptive to all genres of music but effort needs to be made to introduce etc. The same can be said about church music...but that is another story. A
  9. handsoff

    Room 101

    John's final sentence is exactly the point. Human tastes in all things are entirely subjective and opinions are just that; opinions. It was recently said in another thread that Dupre's music was, to paraphrase, mostly poor and shouldn't be played at public recitals. A personal opinion and one with which I strongly disagree but nonetheless as valid an opinion as anyone else's. Most organists I know don't like the first movement of Vierne 1 but I simply love it; brooding, dark and hugely atmospheric, and part of a cohesive symphony. One could ask 50 organists for their thoughts on any piece and probably get 51 opinions. It's a very interesting discussion though. PS I'm not fond of that toccata by JSB but the fugue is, in my opinion, thrilling.
  10. Yesterday
  11. Not wishing to be intentionally disagreeing, but I love the Reubke sonata. One of my favourite pieces. As I understand it, he died before his time and had he lived for longer I'm sure he would have produced many more brilliant pieces. As for Widor, he wrote an excellent mass. Again, one of my favourites. Still, as they say, there's no accounting for taste!
  12. Vox Humana

    Room 101

    I don’t like the Reubke either, but, as my teacher would have said, that’s my problem, not Reubke’s. I just dislike heavy Austro-German Romanticism as a genre – a result of having had a friend at the RCM who used to drag me to hear Wagner operas and Bruckner symphonies (amongst other things; I got my own back by dragging him to David Munrow’s gigs). I have much more time for the ‘classical’ German Romantics like Schumann and Brahms. At least the Reubke is a very fine work, which is more than I can bring myself to say about the bulk of Liszt, whose music is a triumph of effect over substance (pace some gems among the softer piano pieces). Yet Liszt, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler and the rest of them are exceedingly popular with many concert goers, so I hesitate to consign any of them to room 101. If I were to make an exception it would be Liszt’s grotesquely bombastic and vacuous piffle on BACH.
  13. Oddly, I find the Reubke sonata about the only memorable German Romantic piece, amongst enormous swathes of WBD (worthy but dull...) The entirety of Rheinberger's solo organ output springs to mind, which is a pity, as his concerti are well worth hearing, and his music for organ and strings is great. Believe me, I have REALLY tried to like Rheinberger's sonatas, but...
  14. I’m not sure what you mean by Widor’s ‘socialite’ achievements. He was thought of highly enough as a musician to become Minister of Beaux Arts. I can’t think of an organist having held an equivalent office in this country. (Before anyone mentions Edward Heath, I discount him in this context.) But as we are being brave today, I fully share your view of the Reubke Sonata, but would never have dared to say that here. But then, the big Reger works are anathema to some members here, as inexplicable to me as ‘our’ view of Reubke would be to them.
  15. Brizzle

    Room 101

    Widor is becoming a divisive character! Whatever his administrative and socialite achievements, I don’t think we can escape the fact that much of his music isn’t considered to be any good. Widor lived alongside Delibes, Massenet, Debussy, and Ravel, and even overlapped Poulenc for 34 years; his non-organ music (and there’s plenty of it!) hasn’t found a place in the canon amongst the works of these other composers. (And it is possible for organist-composers to have to done so; Saint-Saëns has a number of widely-performed non-organ works, and Franck’s Symphony still gets an airing often enough, although less so since the height of its popularity in the 60s). We hold up Widor’s symphonies as the epitome of organ composition in the French Romantic style, whilst admitting that very few of them, if any, are consistently successful all the way through to be attractive to musicians and listeners away from the organ world. If, as Germani suggested, they should only be performed in their entirety, then we’d have to subject our audiences to some fairly second-rate music. Pretty much all of it could go in Room 101, I think. Despite this, I would probably suggest keeping the Symphony 5 Toccata - it isn’t a great piece, but it is popular with non-organists, and if it is a way of introducing the general public to good organ music, then jettisoning it would be an own goal. In addition to the Toccata, I’d keep the first and last movements of Symphony 6, the Moderato cantabile from No. 8, and the Andante sostenuto from the ‘Gothique’ symphony. I agree that Vierne’s third symphony is his best, but I’m not sure of its appeal beyond the organ loft. I’m not even sure I’d want to hear the whole thing in one concert. My own pet hate is the Reubke Sonata, which sounds to me like 25 minutes of interminable, dreary diminished chords. I can’t be unbiased about it, but I suspect when non-organists say that they find organ music ‘boring’, this is exactly the kind of piece they have in mind. To replace it, I submit the third of Karg-Elert’s ‘Symphonische Kanzone’, with its gently unfolding fugue, serene Kanzone, and an ethereal epilogue with a violin and female singers. It’s still ‘serious’ music, but I have a gut feeling that it would appeal to any general public looking to explore organ repertoire further.
  16. May I gently suggest that the justified indignation about pejorative remarks aimed at amateurs and reluctants (of which I am, or was, one) doesn’t warrant a counter-attack on professional organists as a breed. We are lucky to have some of the finest in our small country. I won’t name favourites, save to say that before the present lockdown it was possible to attend concerts and recitals around the country performed to the very highest standards to respectably-sized audiences. My experiences do not echo some of the pessimistic comments above. As an added bonus, in the last 12 months I had the good fortune to hear, and briefly meet, Thomas Ospital and Philippe Lefebrve from Paris (including a sensational improvisation by PL), and Richard Elliott from Salt Lake City. Three outstanding performances by gifted and charming people. I have encountered several ‘hiccups’ in professional recitals - but no more than three or four times in 50 or more years! - and they were not all the organist’s fault. A couple of ciphers, and one memorable occasion at the RFH with Ralph Downes, no less. He started the Franck second Choral, and after a few bars there was a marked pause; he continued briefly and there was a second more pregnant pause. He then turned to the audience and said “I’m terribly sorry, ladies and gentlemen, I will start again”, which he did, and gave a faultless performance. Yet again, I strongly commend www.organrecitals.com both for advertising events and for planning to attend recitals. It’s an amazing and valuable resource. Before present circumstances there can never have been such a wealth of live-performed organ music available. Let’s hope that normal conditions will return soon.
  17. Last week
  18. On the subject of Organ recitals, in the past ten years I suppose I have been to a few in this country and the UK! Two spring to mind. Both by ex-cathedral organists - who shall be nameless. The first was in a concert hall with about 20 people in the audience. The player played fistfuls of wrong notes, made no attempt to talk about the music he was playing and the programme notes were less than useless! It was dreary. The choice of music was dreary and it did absolutely nothing to endear anyone to go back again. The second was in a Parish church. It was quite full. The recitalist, as with the previous player, played fistfuls of wrong notes but he endeared himself to his audience with a 'good yarn' before each piece and it was a thoroughly enjoyable affair. And, on the subject of coughing! I remember sitting opposite Pau Casals when he was playing unaccompanied Bach. It was a wonderful experience and one that I will live with for a very long time. But at 'hairy' moments, if Casals ever had hairy moments, he would suck frenetically on his pipe!!
  19. Yes Stanley, I'm sorry, but I have to agree with SL here! But never having been one to let go once having got a rat between my teeth (a bit like Stanley in this respect I think, and I know he won't mind me having said so), how abouts a bit of the truth about at least some professional organists? I'm of an age when I was lucky enough to be have been able to attend the weekly organ recitals at the Royal Festival Hall on Wednesdays at 5:55 (because I spent 7 years at King's just across the river in the 1960s/70s). So twixt then and now I've attended an awful lot of them, and not only in this country either. Here's just a sprinkling of the less impressive memories. I'm naming only those who can't sue me. It's far from a complete list. Jacques van Oortmerssen: shuddered to a dead stop in the middle of 'the' toccata at the Royal Albert Hall. Slow hand clap at the end. So embarrassing but, as the unknown guy sitting on my right said, "I'll be asking for my money back". Robert Joyce: casually let his foot produce an extended pedal drone, which is not in any edition I've seen, during the Pastorale of Guilmant's 1st sonata at Llandaff cathedral. Knowing glances between knowledgeable members of the audience. A cathedral organist, not performing on his home instrument, who accidentally brought on full organ (or something approaching it) in a quiet movement of a Mendelssohn sonata. To be fair, it might have been his registrant who was performing near-lunatic acrobatics at the console. (And as an aside, how many other instruments need more than one player? Might this have anything to do with the low esteem in which the organ is held by many other musicians?). I could go on - at length. However to counter all this, we need to remember that the perfect renditions we hear on recordings are largely synthetic and unrepresentative of reality. The average CD contains over 1000 edits. Some recordings are produced by snipping the best bits out of, and then replaying via the instrument itself, several MIDI recordings which many modern pipe organs facilitate. None of this is ever made clear to Joe Public who has to shell out hard earned cash to buy the result. Prior to the days when such things could be done, Walter Alcock at Salisbury Cathedral was said to cough discreetly when his blemishes appeared on his 78 rpm recordings when friends persuaded him to play them. We simply cannot demand this level of flawlessness in live performances and it is unreasonable to expect otherwise. But by the same token, I would respectfully ask that some of these self-styled paragons of virtue might therefore temper their criticisms of the amateur, without whom Christianity as we have come to know it in countless thousands of churches and chapels across this country would be the poorer. There is a parallel forum to this one where there is currently and regrettably not much activity, but quite often amateur organists (who typically style themselves 'reluctant pianists') ask for, and receive, a lot of assistance from kindly professionals without a hint of the cant which I am afraid sometimes surfaces here. Wouldn't it be nice if the reluctant pianists felt able to join our ranks?
  20. as you wish SL. I'm not paid! Anyhoo my points still stand.
  21. Can I, with the greatest respect, Stanley, suggest that this is a fallacy - being an amateur, I mean!!!!!
  22. Well, Colin, I like amateur organists - usually for the right reasons. They - we (I am one) often know better than professionals how to control a congregation in hymns. It helps if you cut you teeth in Wesleyan chapels of course. What I particularly like about us is the usually uninhibited opinions that may not always reflect current ideology but nevertheless speak the plan unvarnished in substantial measure. Regarding the cliqueiness of the organ world - yes it is, and judging from the contributions on the British Organ Facebook page, the young ones are worse than the old ones. Less tolerant too. It was ever thus I suppose. My wife tells me I could be a pompous gobshite when I was young. I strongly suspect it's a disappearing problem. I've written before on this board and elsewhere of the likely future of the church, and therefore of organs and church music. In short, outside the cathedrals and some major churches, there isn't one. Read the church blogs, follow General Synod and look at those currently being ordained. Be careful about following General Synod - it can be a symptom of psychosis.
  23. 'A professionally qualified organist wrote yesterday on this forum of the cliqueiness of the organ world. How right he is.' I suppose that is to a certain extent true. However, if I sleighted the poor amateur organist then please accept my apologies, it was not intentional - Hans Keller once came up with a very true comment something on the lines of 'the love of music is most apparent in the amateur musician even if you don't necessarily hear it'. Nevertheless I'd suggest that there are some basic standards which I'd regard as essential. One or two current threads are pointing out quite clearly that the current reputation of the organ world is in a bit of a parlous state. I'd agree but I might take the opportunity to make some points which have become apparent to me over the past 20 odd years. Hymn Singing – right from the outset I was fortunate to have an excellent teacher at a local Baptist Church (I should point out that I've no particular allegiance to the Baptists, it was the nearest one and I was in a scout troop there). He was not a regular recitalist but he knew how to teach well, a very pleasant, kind and humble man who was meticulous in his service playing. He would practise hymns himself, memorise the tunes, pencil in registrations and keep a rock-steady tempo. It was an excellent start and those particular skills were imbued in all his teaching. Nothing was left to chance. Words were paramount and I was encouraged to memorise the tune and follow the text (same went for Psalm chants later on of course). And yet, I'm sure we've all heard / suffered the megalomaniacs hell bent on drowning out the singing, the shape-shifting tempo pullers intent on adding a drawn out ritardando at the ends of final verses and other such transgressions. As Rowland quite rightly says this is the organists number one job. It's not a sideshow, its what they should do – lead, inspire and support the spiritual act of worship and if that can be further enhanced by tasteful musical means then all the better. It's not rocket science to support and to lead a hymn. I'll add here that I never left any post as the consequence of an altercation with any member of the clergy – it was always other organists who were the troublemakers (like the one who would not permit music in major keys during Lent!). What is to be done about encouraging take up? Study at degree level has shrunk with no courses now at the RNCM, a severely depleted organ department at Huddersfield (which is where I studied – it has a first-class concert organ and the new Phipps organ to boot, what on earth is happening there?). Churches and organs are routinely locked (yes, I can see why but it's an important reason). Where they are accessible you might then find and over-zealous organist who won't allow his (sic) precious instrument to be made available. Practise then becomes well-nigh impossible. I fondly remember the encouragement I received from some well-known cathedral organists – Richard Lloyd at Durham who I approached to 'have a go' on the Cathedral organ there and was most welcoming. It was something on the lines of 'I'll just drop the latch to the loft on my way out and no-one will bother you for an hour or so' with a huge grin! John Sanders at Gloucester was similarly helpful (by then I was teaching and had a big Founders' Day service every year and wanted some practise time). Michael Tavinor when Precentor at Ely, a fine organist himself but he was very complimentary when I visited with another choir even though I suspected he could have easily played better than me. Does this still happen now – I do appreciate that with large and paying visitor numbers it's not as simple. I stopped playing around four years ago (mostly due to a debate I lost with a paint scraping tool!). But even then the robed choir was a thing of distant memory, congregations were shrinking and there was, as now, little or no organ music broadcast by the BBC. I'm of the opinion now that it's almost too late to rescue anything from the fragmented remains, the odds are stacked quite firmly against the organ world. I feel somehow that many of us have stood helplessly by whilst this demise came to be.
  24. I find it odd to hear the pejorative remarks aimed directly or indirectly at amateur organists. We've had quite a few of them on parallel threads recently, and there are hints on this one as well. It often seems that this breed of musician is thought to be uniquely associated with the instrument, and as though amateurs do not exist in connection with any other. It's nonsense of course. Of those who attempt to learn any instrument, how many become professional in the sense that they succeed in making a living by playing it? Surely the answer has to be only a minority in all cases? Therefore, why single out and pillory the poor amateur organist when the majority of those who play all other instruments are also amateurs? The answer, of course, is that it is only the courageous amateur organist who has the temerity (please read this as guts) to regularly play in public for the benefit of their community. To do something useful, in other words, and often for nothing - quite unlike the professional I might add. But by doing so, they necessarily reveal their shortcomings for all to hear, and to be reviled for it. A professionally qualified organist wrote yesterday on this forum of the cliqueiness of the organ world. How right he is.
  25. In defence of Widor Well, we discussed this on an earlier thread, principally about Widor’s much slower tempo in his recording of the Toccata at St Sulpice when he was well into his 80s. Some of us here (maybe a minority) felt that Widor’s interpretation (of his own music!) imparted a dignified grandeur which other performances simply don’t achieve or come near. Although he didn’t observe the rule at Selby, Fernando Germani was on record as saying that individual movements from the organ symphonies should not be played alone; they were part of the whole and to be heard in the context of the other movements. BWV 565 and the Toccata from Symphonie 5 (on its own) have undoubtedly become the most hackneyed. Where organists, and the likes of Classic FM, aren’t succeeding is shown by the fact that the public at large knows little, if any, of the rest of the organ repertoire. I’m afraid I couldn’t pull the lever on Widor! A fascinating man and life; lived through the Franco-Prussian War with dreadful privations, was effectively Minister of Beaux Arts with responsibility for evacuating the Louvre in WW I, Knight of the Legion of Honour, organist of St Sulpice for almost 64 years, etc., etc. Now if you had nominated Léfebure-Wély ... ... I can’t bring myself to nominate a replacement for Widor V, but highly recommended would be Vierne’s Symphonie III, with its haunting Adagio and simply stunning Finale.
  26. My goodness, such heresy on an organists’ website! I will concede that the former organist of the famous public school near my home made an error of judgement some years ago when we had an ‘open day’, not just for the arts but for all local activities of every kind. People were encouraged to circulate round the city and sample everything on offer. For some of them this particular performance may well have been their first (maybe only) encounter with the organ. The programme was ‘The Art of Fugue’ complete (or as complete as it gets). My heart sank as this was an obvious opportunity to evangelise on behalf of the organ. I heard the late Anthony Caesar, former Precentor of Winchester Cathedral, assert that J S Bach was “God’s Messenger”. It was not a matter of any doubt for him. But, of course, the interpretation and playing had to be totally committed. (Incidentally, he proudly claimed that as a boy in the 1930s he had crawled through the bottom C pipe of the Winchester Father Willis 32’ open wood!) As for “dreadful dull, slow, soul-less playing of hymn tunes”, this is down to the organist. Some of us here have to grapple with small, ancient and basic, sometimes intractable, instruments. It’s the organist’s job to overcome the negatives, and to provide at the very least reliable rhythmic playing, enhanced as best he or she can by the resources of the instrument - and with commitment to this very important element of parish liturgy. At parish level, this is arguably the organist’s number one job. Apologies for the apparent sermon. Piet Kee’s CD performances of Bach and Buxtehude at Haarlem and Alkmaar are to be treasured. I haven’t heard the Roskilde recording.
  27. Way off topic warning: Wonderful performance of the b minor. The organist plays the acoustic as much as the music. Very proper. SL writes "Bach organ music can be incredibly boring". Indeed it can, and the b minor often is. The sectional nature of Buxtehude, Bruhns etc appeals to me more, and on the right instrument at the appropriate tempo, can be hair-raisingly exciting. Listen Plet Kee's Bruhns G major at Roskilde. How anyone can survive that without being turned to jelly I don't know(OK slight exaggeration but not much).
  28. Phoneuma

    Room 101

    As there seems to be some cross-referencing between two recent threads (BBC Organs and Organ Recitals : Audience Preferences) I thought I'd start one off which might be worth debating. There seems to be some consensus that there is some repertoire which we might consider to be less than attractive for general audiences. I'd suggest there is also quite a lot of music which is also overplayed and I'd like to kick off by suggesting my nomination for Room 101, a piece I'd be glad never to hear again in a recital. However, I'm also suggesting that we should suggest something we consider more worthy to take its place, let's try to be positive I'm mindful that there are some sacred cows out there in print which should remain forever but here is my own nomination for the abattoir – Widor's ubiquitous Toccata. Now, I realise that its sheer sonic impact alone is almost a reason for including it. I remember (as many others will) the impact it had upon playing the Germani/Selby LP for the first time. But, as time passes I came to realise that its not really a very good piece at all. I'll pass on the 'it's the prototype for the French Toccata' on the grounds that if it is then it could have been a lot better. What is there to admire in a piece that relies heavily on an over-repetitious RH figure which is then doubled by the pedals as a so-called pedal theme? And on and on it trundles, with such predictability that even a first-timer at an organ recital knows what's going to happen next. Even the (probably) easier Boelmann Toccata has much more variety and certainly more interesting harmony and modulation - it seems to have fallen out of favour as well and I don't know why, it's a fine Toccata. Just before I pull the lever on Widor I might also mention I attended a recital a few years back where it was played on this organ (!) https://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=D06838 Anyhow – my own nomination to replace the Widor would be Franz Schmidt's Toccata in C. It's one heck of a technical challenge and I suspect that's why it's not programmed more frequently. But what a delightful piece. Clearly delineated themes, a logical Sonata form structure which I think is pretty straightforward for an audience to follow and some very interesting and taxing tests of dexterity (it would be fun for the audience to watch on a big screen, I think they'd be impressed).
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