Who Decides Who Gets To Play What Organs And Why?

[Guest Roffensis]

Hi

 

There is a significant price difference between producing pre3ssed CD's and CD-R's, which can make small runs uneconomic - especially now that the price of blank CD-R's is so low.  I haven't had cause to check recently, but a year or so ago, you needed a minimum run of 250 pressings before a duplicating plant would even take the job on, and it was more like 1,000 before it starts to make financial sense.  I suspect that we will increasingly see CD-R's used for short-run, specialist recordings.  Most modern CD players will recognise and play CD-R's - it's really only the first generation machines that were problematic.  If you have a player that doesn't read them, then maybe it needs cleaning and setting up (or replacing, which may be cheaper!)

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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CDRS are not as strong as pressed cds. The lacquer is "sticking" merely to the dye which is burnt when recorded on. They are certainly inferior to a pressed disc, and companies DO charge as much for them if you check. Certain companaies go to lengths to obscure this, silver discs etc, but you can tell. There is also not as much detail on such a disc.

Sincerely yours in Christ our saviour,

Richard

[Guest Roffensis]

Well, that is certainly interesting!

 

Are there any extant recordings of Joe Levett playing at Rochetser? (Anything - not necessarily Whitlock.) I assume that they would have to be private recordings, or possibly re-recordings.

 

It would be most interesting to hear the old organ - particularly the 'old-world' charm. I would agree that Chichester has this in abundance and I would very much like to hear an old recording of Rochester.

 

I would certainly concur as regards Chester - although I would like to hear an old (pre-1969) recording of that instrument. I regard Hill as one of the finest builders ever to emerge from the UK. Certainly, there was generally a much greater sense of structure and balance than either a Willis (where the reeds are everything) or a Harrison (where contrasts are the order of the day).

 

I am aware that I am generalising - there is obviously more to a Willis organ than the chorus reeds, but, having recently again played Salisbury at night, once whilst the reeds of the Pedal, GO and Solo Tuba ranks were silent (due to re-leathering) and once when the wind supply had been restored - the difference was incredible. Without the reeds, (save those on the Swell), Salisbury is lacklustre and impotent.

 

Now, whilst the same could be said of many other organs, Hill choruses are so utterly musical and cohesive - even exciting - that the reeds become a useful adjunct, a colouring -  rather than a huge jump to a big climax.

 

I still like Truro, Salisbury, Ripon, etc - but for different reasons!

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I have a good few old recordings of the old organ, you can always email me ok!!

Richard.

[Tony Newnham]

CDRS are not as strong as pressed cds. The lacquer is "sticking" merely to the dye which is burnt when recorded on. They are certainly inferior to a pressed disc, and companies DO charge as much for them if you check. Certain companaies go to lengths to obscure this, silver discs etc, but you can tell. There is also not as much detail on such a disc.

Sincerely yours in Christ our saviour,

Richard

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Hi

 

I'm well aware of the differences between CD & CD-R - One of my "part-time" occupations is doing a bit of recording, including one Christian conference where last year we sold more CD-R's than Cassettes. I also agree that there are some reservations regarding the structure of CD-R's - but there can also be problems with pressed CD's if the sealing isn't perfect, allowing the reflective layer to become damaged. I can't see, though, that there is any difference in the amount of information on discs - it's a digital signal that has to conform to "Red Book" standards - 16 bit 44.1kHz sampling, same for CD & CD-R. Assuming the mastering process doesn't lose anything, there should be no difference.

 

My comments on price were refring to the blanks/raw material - I should have made that clear. Retail pricing is another can of worms!

 

The fact remains, however, that for many low-budget, small-run recordings, pressed CD's are uneconomic because of the minimum run requirements.

 

Another possible advantage with CD-R's is speed of turnover - I can have live recordings on sale within minutes of a concert finishing, assuning that there's no editting required (and there are companies that specialise in this sort of thing).

 

Have a good Sunday

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

[Peter Allison]

Maybe we should all copy our Old recordings, and swap them with eachother using psysudo names so we can't get caught out, ONLY JOKING, got that from an 18 yearold who does a lot of pier to pier file sharing and has hundreds of low quality mp3's

[pcnd5584]

Maybe we should all copy our Old recordings, and swap them with eachother using psysudo names so we can't get caught out,  ONLY JOKING, got that from an 18 yearold who does a lot of pier to pier file sharing and has hundreds of low quality mp3's

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I am glad that you are only joking - it is comparatively easy to trace assigned IP addresses - a pseudonym would be about as much use as a chocolate chastity belt.

 

Speaking as one who has played the organ on a few commercially-produced recordings, I would be distinctly annoyed if some misguided person were to copy it (using digital or analogue means) and subsequently post copies on the 'net.

 

Personally, I find it much easier to listen to any recording if I know that it was produced legally.

 

 

Incidentally, would that be Bournemouth to Boscombe piers? - or do you mean 'peer'....

[Guest Roffensis]

I am glad that you are only joking - it is comparatively easy to trace assigned IP addresses - a pseudonym would be about as much use as a chocolate chastity belt.

 

Speaking as one who has played  the organ on a few commercially-produced recordings, I would be distinctly annoyed if some misguided person were to copy it (using digital or analogue means) and subsequently post copies on the 'net.

 

Personally, I find it much easier to listen to any recording if I know that it was produced legally.  

Incidentally, would that be Bournemouth to Boscombe piers? - or do you mean 'peer'....  

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Probably Brighton, and we all know what happened to that!!

[pcnd5584]

Well, quite....

 

lmao

[Peter Allison]

I am glad that you are only joking - it is comparatively easy to trace assigned IP addresses - a pseudonym would be about as much use as a chocolate chastity belt.

 

Speaking as one who has played  the organ on a few commercially-produced recordings, I would be distinctly annoyed if some misguided person were to copy it (using digital or analogue means) and subsequently post copies on the 'net.

 

Personally, I find it much easier to listen to any recording if I know that it was produced legally.  

Incidentally, would that be Bournemouth to Boscombe piers? - or do you mean 'peer'....  

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Yes, I was only joking, I still go and buy the cd's of my choice over the counter at Bank's in York, ( even at their prices ) even though I can get "copies of most of them, but they are not the same as owning the "real thing" so to speak Its the same with pc software, I still went and bought the full Publisher 2003 office suite, I would certainly not like the copyright people breaking my door down at 3.00 in the morning. My spelling is not as good as it used to be I am afraid

[pcnd5584]

No problem!

 

It has to be said that we do get over-charged for our recorded music in the UK. In the US, things are a lot cheaper. In fact, even in France, the prices are less.

 

Ah well, as you say, better to be safe than sorry.

[Peter Allison]

PS,

does anyone know what might be the definative Whitlock Sonata recording, I thought it might be the Robert Gower one recorded at Selby Abbey on the Abbacus label, or Graham Barbers Coventry one on LP

[pcnd5584]

PS,

    does anyone know what might be the definative Whitlock Sonata recording, I thought it might be the Robert Gower one recorded at Selby Abbey on the Abbacus label, or Graham Barbers Coventry one on LP

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There is a recording of the sonata as played by John Scott, on the Hyperion label. However, the Gower recording is pretty good, I think.

[Peter Allison]

No problem!

 

It has to be said that we do get over-charged for our recorded music in the UK. In the US, things are a lot cheaper. In fact, even in France, the prices are less.

 

Ah well, as you say, better to be safe than sorry.

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I found on one of my Parisian trips that the boxed set of Widor Symphonies (complete) played on 10 C - C organs, was nearly £10 cheaper that the UK. I have been stung once or twice on paying uk taxes on some US product though

Peter

[pcnd5584]

I found on one of my Parisian trips that the boxed set of Widor Symphonies (complete) played on 10 C - C  organs, was nearly £10 cheaper that the UK. I have been stung once or twice on paying uk taxes on some US product though

Peter

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Would that be the version as played by Pierre Pincemaille, Titulaire at S. Denis? If so, I think that it is a stunning series - the organs sound excellent and his playing is almost always brilliant.

[Peter Allison]

There is a recording of the sonata as played by John Scott, on the Hyperion label. However, the Gower recording is pretty good, I think.

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Yes pcnd, I have that one, I think I am a bit of an anorak when it comes to that bit of music, its probably one of my favourite pieces, and I have a few recordings of it including a live recording of John Scott playing it at Southwell minster a few years ago and Amphion released Roger Fisher playing it at Lincoln, Martin Monkman recorded it in the nave but used a section that my friend, David Rogers recorded in the choir

Peter

[Guest Roffensis]

There is a recording of the sonata as played by John Scott, on the Hyperion label. However, the Gower recording is pretty good, I think.

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Fisher did a good one at Lincoln, but for my money it is the Selby Abbey one, pretty good if you ask me!! Just the right sound for it.

R

[pcnd5584]

Yes - I would agree with Roffensis. The Selby Abbey organ always sounds good. Even after the regular tinkering with the mixtures - particularly on the GO and Solo organs. As for Robert Gower - in my view, he is an excellent exponent of the works of Whitlock.

[Peter Allison]

Would that be the version as played by Pierre Pincemaille, Titulaire at S. Denis? If so, I think that it is a stunning series - the organs sound excellent and his playing is almost always brilliant.

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Yes, it is rather good is't it, shame that Pincemailles recordings of toccata's at St. Denis does not sound as good, the microphone(s) are much to close. Got to start saving for a Soundfield mic so I can "have a go"

[pcnd5584]

Yes - my only reservation is that he changes the prescribed registrations - in one case, drastically. The Scherzo in the 2me Symphonie, is marked to be played with reeds 8p and 4p on GPR, with a similar sound on the Pedale, with all Tirasses. However, Pincemaille uses 8p and 2p flutes and basically misses the bright, commanding effect which would have been afforded by the reeds.

 

I have recently recorded the entire symphony (together with other repertoire) on my 'own' church instrument and I use the prescribed registration - I also managed to play it three seconds faster than Pincemaille!

[Brian Childs]

does anyone know what might be the definative Whitlock Sonata recording, I thought it might be the Robert Gower one recorded at Selby Abbey on the Abbacus label, or Graham Barbers Coventry one on LP

 

 

Hi,

 

In the absence of a recording made or approved of by Whitlock, and I do not know of the existence of any such, I am not sure that such a thing as a definitive recording can exist, if by that is meant a reference performance which replicates what the composer wanted/intended more closely and accurately than any other. So I am listing below all the commercially released recordings of the Whitlock sonata of whose existence I am aware and leaving it to others to tell you what is (1) good; (2) not so good; (3) left out !

 

 

PLAYER ORGAN RECORD LABEL

 

Roger Fisher Chester Cathedral Wealden Studios

 

Roger Fisher Lincoln Cathedral Amphion

 

Graham Barber Coventry Cathedral Vista

 

Graham Barber Downside Abbey Priory

 

Robert Gower Selby Abbey Abbacus

 

Jeremy Filsell St Luke's, Chelsea ASV

 

Mark Lee Bristol Cathedral Regent

 

Wolfgang Rubsam Chicago Uni Chapel IFO

 

Paul-Martin Maki Church of Heavenly Rest, NYC JAV

 

John Scott St Paul's, Cathedral Hyperion

 

Colm Carey St Agnes & Ascension

washington DC Signum

 

Christoph Keller Altenberg Dom Sicus Klassik

 

 

If anyone wants further details about any of the above I can probably supply them.

 

Regards,

 

Brian Childs

[Tony Newnham]

and really a national archive, downloadable but paid for would be a solution. Producers will often have their own "babies" and particular interests. A accessible archive will probably never happen, but note that it does for film......

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Hi

 

I doubt that a paid-for archive would work. We looked at the option of charging a nominal fee for access to NPOR, but research showed that very few people would be willing to pay! It might be worth enquiry what the National Sound Archive actually does have in it's collection, though.

 

An ongoing project on NPOR is the Historic Organ Sound Archive - recordings of some the historic organs (currently in East Anglia) - warts and all. There are 4 organs "on-line" at present, with another batch due to be added at any time. Go to the "new" NPOR web-site and click on the HOSA link.

 

The organist is Anne Page, recording engineer Peter Harrison - and despite the mpeg coding, they are an interestuing listen.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

[Guest Roffensis]

Yes - I  would agree with Roffensis. The Selby Abbey organ always sounds good. Even after the regular tinkering with the mixtures - particularly on the GO and Solo organs. As for Robert Gower - in my view, he is an excellent exponent of the works of Whitlock.

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Selby needs a good restoration and reversal of all that needless tinkering, a glance at the before and after specs will reveal some right mistakes. I would LOVE to be the consultant!! Still a lovely job though.

[MusingMuso]

Selby needs a good restoration and reversal of all that needless tinkering, a glance at the before and after specs will reveal some right mistakes. I would LOVE to be the consultant!!    Still a lovely job though. 

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Mistakes or not, I recall this organ as it was before. Reversing everything would result in the previous mistakes.

 

Always a glorious sound, it nevertheless suffered (and still suffers) from bad siting, "the distant rumble of thunder" from the triforium and possibly the most ineffective Hill Tuba in history.

 

This was always an organ less than pure in it's origins, and it would be a brave consultant who decided upon an ideal restoration rather than an attempt to improve what is there. The problem will always be the siting of the instrument I'm afraid, because the side aisles are quite small and the nave isn't terribly wide.

 

Of course, a new free standing Mander at the crossing would be nice, but I feel sure that someone would say it spoiled the view!

 

MM

[pcnd5584]

Well, I was thinking more of the out-of-character alterations to the Solo Organ, for example. Hill was not generally known for including Spitz-Principals, Blockflutes, mutations and a high-pitched Cymbal on his Solo divisions!

 

Then there is the Chimney Flute, Larigot and the two chorus mixtures in the Swell Organ - also not, I suspect, original Hill - mostly alterations from the 1970s - often a bad decade for enlightened organ restorations.

 

However, as you say, it is still a good instrument. Fernando Germani was quite fond of it too, I think!

[MusingMuso]

Well, I was thinking more of the out-of-character alterations to the Solo Organ, for example. Hill was not generally known for including Spitz-Principals, Blockflutes, mutations and a high-pitched Cymbal on his Solo divisions!

 

Then there is the Chimney Flute, Larigot and the two chorus mixtures in the Swell Organ - also not, I suspect,  original Hill - mostly alterations from the 1970s - often a bad decade for enlightened organ restorations.

 

However, as you say, it is still a good instrument. Fernando Germani was quite fond of it too, I think!

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Re: Selby Abbey.

 

On reflection, I used the wrong words in suggesting "previous mistakes."

 

What I really meant was "previous inevitabilities" due to the siting of the instrument in the side aisle of the choir. I remember how muddy the organ could sound down the nave, and yet sounded absolutely wonderful at the console. This was AFTER the H,N & B re-build.

 

The Choir was so far distant from the nave, it truly was a Choir organ only, and even the Solo registers struggled to be heard. I believe they turned the Solo around to face West, (perhaps it was just the Tuba?) and of course, the brighter stops added in the 1970's are actually quite good, and make a difference to the overall balance and effectiveness of the instrument.

 

It IS a wonderful instrument to be sure, but the best place to hear it remains at fairly close quarters....it's a strange building acoustically.

 

MM

[Guest Roffensis]

Well, I was thinking more of the out-of-character alterations to the Solo Organ, for example. Hill was not generally known for including Spitz-Principals, Blockflutes, mutations and a high-pitched Cymbal on his Solo divisions!

 

Then there is the Chimney Flute, Larigot and the two chorus mixtures in the Swell Organ - also not, I suspect,  original Hill - mostly alterations from the 1970s - often a bad decade for enlightened organ restorations.

 

However, as you say, it is still a good instrument. Fernando Germani was quite fond of it too, I think!

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Practically all of his recordings of Selby were resissued, the only thing that escaped was (I think) a couple of bits of Frescobaldi. All the Franck, Widor and I think Reger came back out. I might be wrong, I know I have it on CD. Not a very different sound to now, but some odd changes, a Vox Humana went I think?

Richard