Vox Humana Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 I tend not to mix Diapasons and Flutes. But I sometimes mix a Dulcianna with a Flute or an Oboe with a Flute because you can get a different sound with the two together. A Diapason tends to be stronger than Flute so the effect isn't quite so good.That's a very interesting observation that hadn't occurred to me at all, but I'm sure you're right. I entirely agree that other 8fts tend to blend together well (though very thin strings can be a problem). Depending on the organ I sometimes mix a Voix Celestes with a Flute.Oh, me too! Lovely sound (on the whole). Is it bad practise to use Swell string + Voix Celestes + Suboctave and/or Octave coupler? I use it sometimes to get a 'wider' ethereal.I often use the célestes and octave coupler. As you say, very ethereal. Personally I have a problem with suboctave couplers. I do use them occasionally, but very sparingly and only where the problem of the missing pipes in the bottom octave isn't going to bite. When I do use a suboctave it's usually only with célestes, or more rarely something like 8ft and 4ft flutes, or another "thin" combination - anything more tends (to my ears) to add mud rather than richness. I would never put a suboctave coupler on a piston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 Incidentally - my catholic colleague across the road has a new instrument where you really CAN'T use all the 8's together, and it's the Sw. Hohlföte wot does it..... but you don't hear it at the console. But the voicer warned me....... interesting organ, have a look athttp://kirchenmusik-bistum-magdeburg.de/3910.html Under the picture there's a link to the "Disposition" Wow! Fantastic looking instrument. Very nice spec too. Cavaillé-Coll reeds on the Schwellwerk and a Naumburg Fagott on the Rückpositiv - nothing if not eclectic! In view of which it's funny that the Hohl Flöte shouldn't blend -and you say it was the voicer who warned you...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Wow! Fantastic looking instrument. Very nice spec too. Cavaillé-Coll reeds on the Schwellwerk and a Naumburg Fagott on the Rückpositiv - nothing if not eclectic! In view of which it's funny that the Hohl Flöte shouldn't blend -and you say it was the voicer who warned you...? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's what I call "Néo-classique à l'envers" (Inverted neo-classical): we had Néo-classique up to 1978, then Néo-baroque, and now Néo-classique again. Of course there are overlaps. We already have Néo-cavaillé-Coll; but who's next? Sauer? Willis? Hill? Harrison? H***-****s? Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Well, how about something really frightening: 'Quasi-Hope-Jones'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Well, how about something really frightening: 'Quasi-Hope-Jones'.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good Lord! We could try such combinations as Diapason Phonon+Tibia plena... Well, I'd go for a Neo-Hill instead! Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigel ALLCOAT Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 .. I've currently got 1.5 octaves of Claribel flute in there, on loan from Geoffrey Morgan, and it does make a lovely noise! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Is Geoffrey using CCP as a loan library? How really kind of him. Such a generous spirit, as always. What's the loan time, by the way? NJA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Adrian Yup, we've got a few side joints gone, particularly on the swell chests. Also the swell concussions are poor. Thank you. Thanks again - I'm still trying to find out what was actually in there originally. It looks like it was a Claribel flute from physical evidence, but a lot of the paperwork I have from '56 suggests that it was always a Gedeckt... I've currently got 1.5 octaves of Claribel flute in there, on loan from Geoffrey Morgan, and it does make a lovely noise! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry, Adrian, got you muddled with someone else a bit there! Not that we've ever met. Brain cells start dying from the moment you're born. Alcohol, head-banging and interference from 'one-handed-hobbyists' in authority also help kill them off at an increased rate. That's my excuse. Concussion bellows are useful things if they are air-tight. If they aren't, just sealing these off might well improve things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajt Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Sorry, Adrian, got you muddled with someone else a bit there! Not that we've ever met. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No problem at all! Even my parents get my name wrong, and I'm an only child! I'm obviously just not memorable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajt Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Is Geoffrey using CCP as a loan library? How really kind of him. Such a generous spirit, as always. What's the loan time, by the way?NJA <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, it's not from CCP It's a very kind loan of a rank that might have been destined for his house organ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Echo Gamba Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Yes - and on an English Baroque organ they sound just great. A Victorian or early 20th-century Open Diap and 8' flute is not at all the same thing. OK, maybe I should have used a less subjective term. I was thinking mainly of instruments with specification that date back to the era of the symphonic organ when registration was additive - i.e. you piled on the stops in the order that gave the smoothest crescendo (8's first, then the 4's, then the reeds, lastly the mixtures) and never bothered to subtract any. As I understand it the builders' goal was an "orchestral" sound. Wasn't it Willis who voiced his Geat Organs so that the diapaons were stronger in the bass, but the flutes stronger in the treble, so that, by using both together you get a more "singing" tone colour as you get higher, but a constant balance? On such an instrument it would be a very good reason for using both together, of course. I've not checked, but I think the proliferation of 8' Opens has everything to do with the symphonic style of registration I mentioned above. Not sure you find them so much at an earlier date, but, like I say, I've not checked, so I may be well off-beat here. It depends very much on the organ and the builder. According to Stephen Bicknell, some builders like Willis and Lewis voiced their diapasons and flutes to be used (and heard) together; others like Harrison & Harrison [and Walker?] did not. I played an old Compton pipe organ recently where the Swell was really an Echo organ and had very little impact when added to the Great. There's a lot of variety out there. Continuing my current pastime of looking back over old topics.... Regarding multiple Open Diapasons, apart from the "symphonic" question, was it not also simply to allow different "weight" of accompaniment - ie allowing the Great to accompany the choir using say No 3 and Principal (No 2 if there was one) nad a congregation, using the larger ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Echo Gamba Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 On my own church instrument I use all the foundation stops (except the Swell Vox Angelica) most of the time for playing mf and above. The combination of a building which has an acoustic ambience which makes the RFH sound warm and fluffy and a buried east-of-transept-dog-kennel position means that so-called Baroque registrations of one stop of each pitch for the choruses sound absurdly thin and top-heavy. I am extremely fussy about registrations on any organ which I play and frequently get pupils to play musical excerpts using my prescribed registrations whilst I go and listen in several key parts of the building. Whilst this is not quite the same as having a building full of people, it nevertheless gives a good indication of the effect in various parts of the church. Again, it is a case of individual instruments, buildings and organists. A previously-mentioned point regarding a Hohl Flute and a Diapason is interesting. The Hohl Flute, regardless of which builder (or pipe-maker) produced the rank, seems to be a notoriously bad mixer. Just about every example I have encountered sounds thick, oily and unpleasant (with the possible exceptions of one or two by Wm. Hill). There used to be a particularly nasty specimen at a church where I was previously the Assistant Organist. However, following an excellent rebuild (for a very reasonable sum) by Lance Foy, this Hohl Flute went on to perform the valuable service of keeping him and his family warm over the Christmas period. My experience of Hohl Flutes has been almost exclusively bad. ARE there any nice ones anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Morley Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 My experience of Hohl Flutes has been almost exclusively bad. ARE there any nice ones anywhere? William Hill's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsphead Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 William Hill's? Late 19th/early 20th Century Willis wooden hohl flutes. Very nice when under expression. AJS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Morley Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 In the early 20C, Jardine produced hohlflotes that were triangular open wood from Ten.C. The example here (froM 1913): http://npor.rcm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?...ec_index=N02254 is a very characterful stop. I would hazard a guess that a good many other similar ranks from this period and builder survive. (N.B: this organ has undergone limited restoration in the last five years, and its future would seem to be secure. This has happened very much against the odds. The church tradition is charismatic and the organ has not been the primary vehicle for leading worship for over 20 years. Additionally there are many other demands made upon the modest resources of a congregation who do their utmost to serve a community in which there are quite desperate social problems.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Goldrick Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 My experience of Hohl Flutes has been almost exclusively bad. ARE there any nice ones anywhere? The Great Hohl Flute at Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle in Australia has to be one of the finest of its type. The pipework is Norman & Beard 1906, incorporated into the superb rebuild in 1963 by J.W. Walker. [stoplist] played by Michael Dudman (fixed broken link) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Certainly some of the William Hill examples are quite good. There are even one or two musical ranks by Hele & Co. (not always the case with this builder); for example, the G.O. at Okehampton Parish Church contains a perfectly acceptable Hohl Flute. Whilst the organ was rebuilt by Hele & Co. in 1972 (under the parent company, which is why it possesses a Walker-style console), as far as I know this rank and its partner, a 4ft. Harmonic Flute were not revoiced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bennett Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 The Schulze at Armley has a particularly fine example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Echo Gamba Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 This seems as good a place as any to raise a point regarding "Octopods". I am thinking of the inumerable instruments (I played one for a funeral this morning) with a Great of Open Diap, Dulciana, 8' flute & 4' Flute. I know that a lot depends on the voicing of individual instruments, but were these envisaged as a "Great" of just the Open Diap, plus, in effect, a "Choir" of the Dulciana & Flutes, or was the 4' Flute expected to stand in for a Principal 4'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 I don't think it was either really. I am sure that such specifications were intended to be exactly what they are - an 8' flute to which you added one of the other two stops and lastly the remaining one. I think many organists of this era would probably not have considered using the Open Diap on its own - one octogenarian organist I know who preserves the early twentieth-century tradition of registration once took me to task for suggesting that one might use 8' and 4' diapasons on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Echo Gamba Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I think many organists of this era would probably not have considered using the Open Diap on its own - Good point - hadn't thought of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbarber49 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 My experience of Hohl Flutes has been almost exclusively bad. ARE there any nice ones anywhere? I like my Great Organ one! (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N03444) However I wouldn't be happy to have it as the only 8' flute - there is a stopped diapason as well. I use the Hohl Flute as a solo stop and sometimes to produce a warm 8' foundation tone. It also goes very well with the 4' flute. It doesn't mix so well with the (small) open diapason. By the way, can anyone suggest what I could use the Large Open for? How would it have been used in 1917 when the organ was built? It's so loud and unpleasant! I restrict it to occasional use, since it's there, for solos in hymns and for the last few chords in loud pieces in conjunction with the swell octave.) Stephen Barber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Echo Gamba Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I like my Great Organ one! (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N03444) However I wouldn't be happy to have it as the only 8' flute - there is a stopped diapason as well. I use the Hohl Flute as a solo stop and sometimes to produce a warm 8' foundation tone. It also goes very well with the 4' flute. It doesn't mix so well with the (small) open diapason. By the way, can anyone suggest what I could use the Large Open for? How would it have been used in 1917 when the organ was built? It's so loud and unpleasant! I restrict it to occasional use, since it's there, for solos in hymns and for the last few chords in loud pieces in conjunction with the swell octave.) Stephen Barber See my question here and replies (#96 onwards) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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