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St. Mary's, Southampton, Willis Iii


ajt

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What do you want to swap it for? There is a Flute Triangulaire at Bradford on Avon. Most of it was lying around the pews for ages while John Coulson decided whether or not to put it all back together again. Ultimately, he decided not to and Michael Farley finished it!

 

My swopsies cupboard is currently limited to a Hele Stopped Diapason, beer, or money. You might be able to have a yukky zinc gedact if you want!!!

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Guest Barry Oakley
...I regret to say, the sort of changes that David Coram recounts were sometimes carried out by Willis 4 - there were several stops like this (odds and ends cut down to make 'more fashionable' sounds) at the Victoria Hall, Hanley before the latest rebuilding by HN&B.  Don't get me wrong, however, I thought it was a worse instrument (musically speaking) after HN&B did their work.  The standard of this rebuild was a huge disappointment considering so much money had been raised and such a splendid effort was made locally to see the organ put straight (due in large part to the leadership of the late John Norris of St.Paul's Newcastle-under-Lyme).

 

To cover myself: It is possible that V.H.H. has been properly regulated since I last played it which was around the time of the re-opening. At that time, I could not find a single even reed stop on the job and was not suprised to find out from HN&B's men that they did not (by then) have a reed voicer on the permanent staff.

 

To my ears, Paul, I think the latest rebuild by David Wells has eradicated any regulation problems. It can, though, see some of the reeds drift in tuning during the course of a recital, especially during the Spring. But altogether I find full organ somewhat coarse.

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Amogst my collection of random organ detritus, I have (spare) exactly the sort of Willis 3 Claribel that was probably on this Great to start with - it is a triangular flute, open from Tenor G up.  Dear ajt If you find that's what it was, and you want one, we might be able to do a swap.

 

Sounds great to me! Will have to be a way off yet - got a lot of other work to do first!

 

When did you last play VHH? I used to play it quite regularly in the mid-90's, don't remember feeling passionate either way about it.

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There has clearly been a great deal of horsetrading in there but NPOR curiously silent about most of it.

 

Hi

 

The reason rhat NPOR is silent is that no one has told us of the changes!!!

 

If you have reliable information, PLEASE let us know, and we can update the survey(s).

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

(NPOR Editor)

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The other weird thing is the Pedal soundboard - top F sharp and G are on off note chests.  A secondhand soundboard perhaps?  The bellows weights have a chequered history and at least two of the reservoirs are to HN&B pattern of the era.

 

Hi

 

More likely a change from 30 to 32 note compass at some point in the organ's history?

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Hi

 

The reason rhat NPOR is silent is that no one has told us of the changes!!!

 

If you have reliable information, PLEASE let us know, and we can update the survey(s).

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

(NPOR Editor)

 

Dear Tony

 

I sent some information in to the NPOR, by email at least five or six weeks ago, regarding the disposal of the old organ (and specifically what has happened to the case) in St Peter, St Albans. I did this for openness and clarity and in order to avoid speculation, especially as a local newspaper reported the case's disposal incorrectly and I consequently had to deal with a certain amount of correspondence about it!

 

Unfortunately, as yet it has not been added to the website.

 

Andrew

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For some unknown reason the Gt Open Diap 1 is off the soundboard - not derived or extended anywhere - an afterthought?

 

By the sounds of the description of this organ, I think it is must be distancing itself from some neighbouring ranks or slinking off for good.

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There was another of these enclosed 32' reeds on a similar-sized Willis 3 at St.Judes' Thornton Heath near Croydon. A very fine organ in a church with practically no acoustic at all.  It was very fine indeed - if you like that sort of thing, of course.

 

By all accounts that organ (no longer in the church) was bought lock stock and barrel by a certain Mr.Carlo Curley.  It will be very interesting to see what he decides to do with it!

 

Originally purchased by a local blacksmith(?) with lots of money, I seem to think. I could be wrong.

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Dear Tony

 

I sent some information in to the NPOR, by email at least five or six weeks ago, regarding the disposal of the old organ (and specifically what has happened to the case) in St Peter, St Albans.  I did this for openness and clarity and in order to avoid speculation, especially as a local newspaper reported the case's disposal incorrectly and I consequently had to deal with a certain amount of correspondence about it!

 

Unfortunately, as yet it has not been added to the website.

 

Andrew

 

Andrew,

 

I've just received an e-mail from Frances at the NPOR, who says that they have a very large editing backlog, so things are taking several weeks to be updated.

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The Website is just fine now, with the pictures and the Howell's MP3.

The people on my forum are very interested with it. a french organ builder

says the pipes are splendid, especially the reeds -of course, it's a Willis-.

Keep these jobs, they are interesting for us abroad.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

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The Website is just fine now, with the pictures and the Howell's MP3.

The people on my forum are very interested with it. a french organ builder

says the pipes are splendid, especially the reeds -of course, it's a Willis-.

Keep these jobs, they are interesting for us abroad.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

 

Thank you! I think that was a compliment :angry:

 

If there are any specific bits of the organ you'd like to hear, e.g. the reeds, then I'm happy to record them...

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Thank you! I think that was a compliment :angry:

 

If there are any specific bits of the organ you'd like to hear, e.g. the reeds, then I'm happy to record them...

 

This would be very usefull as samples to have french people understanding

what a british organ is; a majority did never hear one.

Besides the reeds, the Diapasons (from 8' alone to full chorus), the Flutes, the

strings (with Vox angelica, which is different from a Voix céleste) would make

fine demonstration samples we could link to and discuss.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

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This would be very usefull as samples to have french people understanding

what a british organ is; a majority did never hear one.

Besides the reeds, the Diapasons (from 8' alone to full chorus), the Flutes, the

strings (with Vox angelica, which is different from a Voix céleste) would make

fine demonstration samples we could link to and discuss.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

 

Will try to do that tomorrow - I think David Coram's kindly going to spend another day inside the beast...

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We noted there is a reed pipe pictured with both weighted tongue and leathered

shallot.

Is this original or a later means to correct a problem?

 

Pierre

 

I'd be surprised if it's original, but these are questions that I need to answer. I'm due to meet the current "maintainers" (quotation marks intentional) in January, when I officially take over, so I'll hopefully find out then. My guess is that it's something they did in 1994 when they did some rebuilding work following a roof leak.

 

For an organ that is reputed to be untouched, there are quite a few anomalies!

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For an organ that is reputed to be untouched, there are quite a few anomalies!

 

The NPOR suggests the pipework comes form 'a number of sources' including an organ from Stirling - could this possibly be the reason for some of these anomalies?

 

AJJ

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Andrew,

 

I've just received an e-mail from Frances at the NPOR, who says that they have a very large editing backlog, so things are taking several weeks to be updated.

 

Hi

 

That's correct - it's a task reminiscent of painting the Forth Bridge! We had a substantial backlog before the recent move of office and concurrent introduction of new software, but we are trying to prioritise situations like the one mentioned earlier. All of the editors are volunteers, so inevitably things take a while to get through the system - we are doing our best! At least the new software should potentially make things a little quicker, once it's up and running properly and we've inroned out a few bugs and got used to it!

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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If I remember, I heard a story that the Gt Gedact was HWIII's only concession to the neo-baroque organ, which was making itself felt in the RFH organ, completed in the same year.

 

The organ at Southampton is made up of at least a couple of organs...

 

Excellent pictures - well done! and Good Luck!

 

Must have a beer sometime, Adrian and have a chat...

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If I remember, I heard a story that the Gt Gedact was HWIII's only concession to the neo-baroque organ, which was making itself felt in the RFH organ, completed in the same year.

 

The organ at Southampton is made up of at least a couple of organs...

 

Excellent pictures - well done! and Good Luck!

 

Must have a beer sometime, Adrian and have a chat...

 

The gedeckt was definitely a clarabella originally, and the cymbel mixture was definitely a vox humana originally.

 

We had the console covers off today, and the original printed wiring/stop layout cards have been crossed in pen with the new stop names.

 

I take no credit for the pictures, by the way, except for providing the camera and the key to the organ. Mr Coram was the one delving round the organ, for which I can't thank him enough. The reeds are now mostly in tune, too!

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have been following the postings with interest,- I was a pupil of Cecil Williams in the early 1960's and also assistant organist for a while. He was responsible for me taking up music professionally so I have fond memories of my time there. I would love the opportunity to renew my acquaintance with the instrument. It would no doubt bring back memories, some of which I probably would prefer to forget,- blind 'full organ' pistons to name but one!

I seem to remember Cecil Williams saying that he was heavily influenced in his tonal design of the instrument by the organ in All Saint's, Portland Place. As a music student in London I certainly remember a very close resemblance in the specification, including the inclusion of the dulzian & waldhorn reeds on the swell!

The gt, Gedeckt & sw. Mixture were already in place by 1959 but I remember CDW commenting on the change. The choir was designed to include a 'solo' section, I believe funds would not run to a 4th manual.

As a sideline,- I believe Henry Willis 1V also installed the sound amplification at the same time as the organ!

My address is Diapason@blueyonder if I can be of any further help.

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I have been following the postings with interest,- I was a pupil of Cecil Williams in the early 1960's and also assistant organist for a while. He was  responsible for me taking up music professionally so I have fond memories of my time there. I would love the opportunity to renew my acquaintance with the instrument. It would no doubt bring back memories, some of which I probably would prefer to forget,- blind 'full organ' pistons to name but one!

I seem to remember Cecil Williams saying that he was heavily influenced in his tonal design of the instrument by the organ in All Saint's, Portland Place. As a music student in London I certainly remember a very close resemblance in the specification, including the inclusion of the dulzian & waldhorn reeds on the swell!

The gt, Gedeckt  & sw. Mixture were already in place  by 1959 but I remember CDW commenting on the change. The choir was designed to include a 'solo' section, I believe funds would not run to a 4th manual.

 

Great to hear from someone who knows something about the history of this instrument!

 

What was your impression of it when you were playing it regularly? I'm particularly interested in the wind side of things - I've heard claims that the blower was never large enough to support full organ, but I find that hard to believe.

 

These days it's still a lovely comfortable console (I would hope that apart from wear and tear, it's no different from what it would have been in 1959), but remarkably unreliable, largely because of electrics, but increasingly because of wind too. (The swell chests are splitting, someone's punched holes in the pedal leatherwork to stop ciphers, and the concussions are all split, plus the blower is knackered, and the the trunking from it has crumbled)

 

I've just come back from a practice session, where the OD2, Tromba 8', Gt Mixture and Gemshorn were all "missing" (wind problems at the stop machine end), the Sw. Clarion comes on about 5 seconds after being drawn, the low pressure Sw stops have a D# and middle A missing, etc, etc. And then there's the electrics... Sw->Ch is permanently on on a couple of notes (very very very annoying!), Sw Oct -> Gt comes on randomly, and none of the pistons are adjustable any more (which is annoying for me as the new incumbent, because I don't particularly like having mixtures on early in the piston range, if you see what I mean) ...

 

If you'd like to come and renew your acquaintance, you'd be absolutely welcome any time! Where are you based?

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I have been searching for a post in which the writer requested details of any 'Father' Willis organ of a reasonable size that was still in its original condition - or close to it.

 

I have been unsuccessful in locating this post, so I do not know if this is even the correct thread.

 

However, for what it is worth, I mention the organ of St. George the Martyr, Preston. Built by FHW in 1865, it has the following stops:

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Open Diapason 16

Bourdon 16

Violoncello 8

Viola 4

Fourniture III

Ophicleide 16

 

CHOIR ORGAN

 

Claribel Flute 8

Viola d'Amore 8

Vox Angelica 8

Dulciana 8

Gemshorn 4

Flûte Harmonique 4

Flageolet 2

Corno di Bassetto 8

Orchestral Oboe 8

 

GREAT ORGAN

 

Double Open Diapason 16

Open Diapason 8

Claribel Flute 8

Gamba 8

Principal 4

Flûte Harmonique 4

Twelfth 2 2/3

Fifteenth 2

Sesquialtera III

Posaune 8

Clarion 4

 

SWELL ORGAN

 

Contra Gamba 16

Open Diapason 8

Lieblich Gedackt 8

Salicional 8

Principal 4

Flûte Harmonique 4

Piccolo 2

Mixture III

Cornopean 8

Oboe 8

Clarion 4

 

It would be interesting to know if this organ is still in existence - and in its original state. Presumably this would not include the original blowing mechanism....

 

There is, too, the three-clavier FHW at Tiverton (N10590) - which is still largely un-spoiled, with the exception of three unfortunate stop changes on the Choir Organ and one on the GO.

 

The Tiverton instrument, apart from being a little smaller, has a fairly similar specification. I played it some years ago and can remember the original FHW console. As far as I can remember, it had an extremely good sound.

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It would be interesting to know if this organ is still in existence - and in its original state. Presumably this would not include the original blowing mechanism....

 

According to NPOR, it still exists - moved by Willis from the west gallery in 1885 then restored by Walkers in 1973 but with no tonal changes.

 

Blowing was originally hydraulic - so I guess it is replaced!

 

Church web site also has some info:

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/prestonian/st_george.htm

 

I'll bet it sounds wonderful, and in a 3 sec acoustic. Has anyone played or heard it?

 

JJK

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