Organ Recitals And Showmanship

[Brian Childs]

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The trouble is, there are so MANY reeds at Hull. I'm fairly certain that Peter used the Tuba towards the end though.

 

The Tuba is a VERY big sound, and at 16ft, absolutely shattering. Peter used to very sensibly warn people about using ALL the reeds together, which in the hall is unbearable almost, and in any event, the reeds all end up brawling with each other in a most unseemly way.....just like a Hull City and a Kingston Rovers match on a Saturday afternoon, but without the blood and broken limbs.

 

 

MM

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Tubas 8 and 4 I think, his letter mentioned "tubas" at the end.

 

 

It is a long time ago now, and my interest in sport could perhaps most accurately be described as minimal but is not Hull City the football (ie soccer) team, the rugby teams being HKR and Hull (without further adornment) ?

 

Should I be correct in this recollection then presumably any match in which they played against each other could only be for the purposes of either (a) charity or ( to provide a legitimate front to stage a riot.

[MusingMuso]

Tubas 8 and 4 I think, his letter mentioned "tubas" at the end.

It is a long time ago now, and my interest in sport could perhaps most accurately be described as minimal but is not Hull City the football (ie soccer) team, the rugby teams being HKR and Hull (without further adornment) ?

 

Should I be correct in this recollection then presumably any match in which they played against each other could only be for the purposes of either (a) charity or ( to provide a legitimate front to stage a riot.

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Yes, I think your right.

 

There are wonderful stories relating to the old corporation-employed bus-crews running up and down Anlaby Road in Hull, with the rugby-scores chalked on blackboards attached to the sides of the buses.

 

Apparently, the wiser "old hands" rubbed out the numbers and changed them beofre driving from West Hull into East Hull, which prevented the local hooligans throwing bricks and breaking all the bus-windows!

 

As I heard this from several sources, I guess it must be true.

 

Now another humorous recollection, which Peter Goodman may be able to confirm or deny.

 

Somewhere in the back of my skull, I seem to recall an "incident" at the City Hall, which may either have been a polticial meeting or a boxing-match; not that there's much to choose between them.

 

I'm fairly certain that Peter (or perhaps someone else) was summoned to play the organ to bring the shouting and the ensuing riot to an end, but it may just have been somewhere else.

 

I would like to think it WAS at Hull City Hall, because I can't think of many organs apart from that and the RAH instrument, which could actually DO that.

 

On the subject of public-disorder and the organ, John Scott-Whiteley swears it is true that he played a certain piece at the end of the enthronement of David Jenkins as Bishop of Durham.

 

You may recall that Jenkins' radical, liberal theological stance caused quite a stir in certain quarters, and "they" gathered outside of the West Door of York Minster to protest at his enthronement and presumably get on the telly.

 

J S-W told me that, with so much clerical hostility, protest, noise, placard-waving, argument and counter-argument, he could think of nothing better than "The war march of the priests" to end the show.

 

Now THAT is what I call style!

 

 

MM

[Peter Allison]

have any of you come across "the cheerfull austrailian" Thomas Heywood? now there is a guy who could give Carlo a run for his money (and he is married to a lovely "sheila") I heard him at York Minster, and he gave a very good acount of himself, its a shame when playing the Bach 542 he did not take into account the large acoustic as he was playing so fast the echo was catching up on itself. However redemption was at hand in the form of a DVD that I bought, it was Heywood playing the Melbourne town hall at the opening gala concert, phew, what an instrument. He plays the Bach 542 very well, and his own transcription of Beethovens complete 5th symphony, marvelous stuff

Peter

Thomas Heywood

[Guest Lee Blick]

I did a rather unfortunate thing at the organ console at Hull City Hall when it had its restoration back in the late 80's, I think I mentioned this in another thread but will repear it if anyone is interested.

[MusingMuso]

I did a rather unfortunate thing at the organ console at Hull City Hall when it had its restoration back in the late 80's, I think I mentioned this in another thread but will repear it if anyone is interested.

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Pray remind us Lee

 

MM

[Guest Lee Blick]

One summer, when I was 17, I went to visit my Gran in Hull and I got to know the organist of the local church and he asked me if I wanted to go and see the newly refurbished organ at Hull City Hall.

 

So it was arranged that me and my gran would go and see it, demonstrated by I presume the organ curator. Well he was taking me through the stops, it had what I thought some wierd stops like Harmonics of 32ft (why not have a real rank rather than several) and he asked me if I wanted to have a go. So I climbed on and he said he was going to let me get on while he goes to the toilet.

 

So I was happily playing. Then suddenly a voice boomed behind me, "What are you doing to my organ!" The curator pointed to the manuals. There was blue ink all over the Great manuals. What I hadn't realised, whilst I was watching the curator play, I had a leaking biro in my pocket and it had obviously covered my hand as I had put my hand my pocket. It was a shock to see the manuals covered with my finger prints. Luckily he had a hankerchief and managed to get it off. But I was very embarrassed. My Gran said it could happen to anyone, bless her. She is 90 this year.

[Guest Barry Oakley]

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Yes, I think your right.

 

There are wonderful stories relating to the old corporation-employed bus-crews running up and down Anlaby Road in Hull, with the rugby-scores chalked on blackboards attached to the sides of the buses.

 

Apparently, the wiser "old hands" rubbed out the numbers and changed them beofre driving from West Hull into East Hull, which prevented the local hooligans throwing bricks and breaking all the bus-windows!

 

As I heard this from several sources, I guess it must be true. 

 

Now another humorous recollection, which Peter Goodman may be able to confirm or deny.

 

Somewhere in the back of my skull, I seem to recall an "incident" at the City Hall, which may either have been a polticial meeting or a boxing-match; not that there's much to choose between them.

 

I'm fairly certain that Peter (or perhaps someone else) was summoned to play the organ to bring the shouting and the ensuing riot to an end, but it may just have been somewhere else.

 

I would like to think it WAS at Hull City Hall, because I can't think of many organs apart from that and the RAH instrument, which could actually DO that.

 

MM

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This is news to me! My parents moved to Hull in 1948 and I lived in the city and the East Riding until 1973. I never heard of or saw rugby scores on the sides of buses in all the time I lived in the area. There was intense rivalry between to the two professional rugby teams – “Rovers” and the “Airlie Birds” - in the 40’s, 50’s and later, yet I don’t recall any anti-social behaviour spilling over on to the streets; it all took place on the pitch. Of course Hull has always been renowned for its own excellent low-cost telephone service and this easily facilitated updates and scores throughout the city as matches were in progress. There was also an effective jungle telegraph. too.

 

And I don't remember Hull Corporation buses ever running from west to east. They ran a radiating service; so that if you wished to travel from, say, east to west, you first had to catch a bus to the centre interchange and then catch another to your destination on the other side of the city.

 

Sorry this has got nothing to do whatsoever about the original topic

[MusingMuso]

This is news to me! My parents moved to Hull in 1948 and I lived in the city and the East Riding until 1973. I never heard of or saw rugby scores on the sides of buses

 

Sorry this has got nothing to do whatsoever about the original topic

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I always think of Hull as a city once plagued by illegal scrap-dealers.

 

They used to gather somewhere in the vicinity of the City Hall, and what a man couldn't get for a couple of bob and a bag of scraps, was nobody's business!

 

 

MM

[Guest Lee Blick]

I once read in a book that Hull is supposed to smell of death. My friends who live in Hull says there is a part of it smells because of the sewers. My dad who grew up there says it is a place to avoid, it is in the middle of nowhere. And to think I nearly moved there last year.

[Nick Bennett]

I once read in a book that Hull is supposed to smell of death.  My friends who live in Hull says there is a part of it smells because of the sewers.  My dad who grew up there says it is a place to avoid, it is in the middle of nowhere.  And to think I nearly moved there last year. 

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It's quite close to Beverley.

[MusingMuso]

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I always think of Hull as a city once plagued by illegal scrap-dealers.

 

They used to gather somewhere in the vicinity of the City Hall, and what a man couldn't get for a couple of bob and a bag of scraps, was nobody's business!

 

 

MM

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Now this is a little unfair on Hull. (How did we get onto this subject?)

 

Hull is NOT in the middle of nowhere at all. It's a half-hour journey to York, an hour from Leeds. 45 minutes from Doncaster and not far away from Bridlington and the East Coast, it has TWO very large four-manual instrument within spitting distance (Holy Trinity and the City Hall) a Lammermuir at the Uni, a Grant, Deegens at St.Martin's, the medieval PC is one of the largest in the UK, it's outlying areas are absolutely beautiful, it is close to the Yorkshire Wolds, it has fine marine museum "The Deep," it enjoys good weather, it has a huge bridge with a centre span over a mile long, there is the fairest medieval village church in all England at Patrington, it has excellent fish & chips, the ferry to Holland is on the door-step, it has good rail-links, lots of local musical events and societies, a marina (with pretty boats), a fine Victorian station etc etc.

 

OK, the people speak funny, but it's not all bad, and as Nick Benett points out, it's only a few miles away from Beverley, where there is not only the minster, but the almost equally impressive Parish Church of St.Mary's with another 4-manual organ.

 

If people aren't out to rob you, they're usually quite friendly in Hull.

 

MM

[Vox Humana]

What? Both of them?

[J Maslen]

Vox H. raises an interesting point. Everyone loves a showman, and the Organ world is seen as one bereft of showmen - a dull, lifeless world in which elderley gentlemen play boring music in half empty buildings, or to a departing congregation who don't care a fig for his efforts. Well known showmen would indeed be welcome.

 

But hang on a minute. Many of those mentioned in this thread I have never heard play, but I have heard Carlo Curley, and I have heard Wayne Marshall.

 

The former played a few years ago here in Bristol on the newly restored H & H in St. Mary Redcliffe ('the fairest and goodliest ...' etc.). He a) played too much of his program far too fast and used the Tuba far too frequently (even in that Festing piece which GT-B arranged for Organ). I'm not totally convinced about his playing of the Bach D minor either. Later Wayne Marshall played in the same series, and he also played far too fast, leaving the music too litte time to 'breath' - the Liszt 'Ad nos' was finished in around 25 minutes as I recall. He also improvised rather too much on themes by Gershwin for my liking, but we'll let that pass.

 

I also heard, years ago, Simon Preston play at the RFH. He ended his recital (immaculately played as ever) with a thrilling performance of the Liszt BACH which justly received a standing ovation. Before it had completely died away he was back on the stool, full organ piston, and straight into finale of Vierne no. 1. Showmanship? Yes, but allied to superb musicianship.

 

I would welcome showmen to play and attract crowds (which, to be fair, CC does) to popularise the Organ - it would help with combating EU directives as well if people in general actually appreciated its music, and liked the wonderful 'noise it makes' - but please, let them be musical as well. Showmanship alone doesn't 'do it' for me.

[Vox Humana]

I agree with this entirely. Perhaps what we need is not so much showmanship as musicianship with charisma?

[Nick Bennett]

Yes, showmanship doesn't do it for me either. I wouldn't cross the road to hear Wayne Marshall or Carlo Curley again. Their tempi are far, far to fast to make music of the notes.

 

On the other hand, David Briggs' recital on the rebuilt Blackburn Cathedral instrument the other year was both musically excellent and highly entertaining - especially his explanation as to why he was playing only the toccata of BWV 540.

[Vox Humana]

and highly entertaining - especially his explanation as to why he was playing only the toccata of BWV 540.

Pray tell!

[Nick Bennett]

Of course, there is a darker side to Hull - see Devvo's Corner, but it's not for the faint hearted.

[Guest Lee Blick]

NB - scary indeed

 

As to Carlo and Wayne, I love watching them perform. They may not to be everyone's taste. I think their musicianship is pretty good and I wouldn't put them down just because they played some pieces at the 'wrong speed' in one particular recital.

 

I know both these gentleman personally and I think they have done much to take the organ from being stuffy,worthy and dreary (as has been the perception in the past) to something worth getting excited about. I think they are ambassadors for the "King of Instruments", long may people like them continue.

[Guest Barry Oakley]

I once read in a book that Hull is supposed to smell of death.  My friends who live in Hull says there is a part of it smells because of the sewers.  My dad who grew up there says it is a place to avoid, it is in the middle of nowhere.  And to think I nearly moved there last year. 

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I think you and MM have rather been listening to old wives tales in spite of what your father has told you. The city has a good deal of fine architecture; its art gallery and museums are first-rate. And, of course, there are two fine organs in the City Hall and in Holy Trinity, the latter needing a long overdue restoration. But nowadays it can be somewhat sad. Its fishing industry has been decimated and so, too, have the major employers, most of them gone. Meanwhile the port continues to go from strength to strength

 

The sewer smell is a new one to me. In the days of the fishing industry and given a strong west wind, the smell of curing fish was much in the air. And I don't ever remember seeing scrap dealers in the vicinity of the City Hall.

 

I shall be visiting Hull with my wife next weekend to see my aged mother and will check out the so-called "smell of death." My mum's in her 99th year and is fit and well for her age.

 

If you ever want to experience a city which suggests the "smell of death," try visiting Stoke-on-Trent, once described as the finest present-day working example of a city from the middle ages.

[Guest Barry Oakley]

Of course, there is a darker side to Hull - see Devvo's Corner, but it's not for the faint hearted.

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If you know anything about Yorkshire accents, you will soon realise that the morons appearing in "Devvo's Corner" are not from Hull, in spite of this trash being apparently filmed in the city. The accents are more West or South Yorkshire.

[MusingMuso]

I think you and MM have rather been listening to old wives tales in spite of what your father has told you. The city has a good deal of fine architecture; its art gallery and museums are first-rate. And, of course, there are two fine organs in the City Hall and in Holy Trinity, the latter needing a long overdue restoration. But nowadays it can be somewhat sad. Its fishing industry has been decimated and so, too, have the major employers, most of them gone. Meanwhile the port continues to go from strength to strength

 

The sewer smell is a new one to me. In the days of the fishing industry and given a strong west wind, the smell of curing fish was much in the air. And I don't ever remember seeing scrap dealers in the vicinity of the City Hall.

 

I shall be visiting Hull with my wife next weekend to see my aged mother and will check out the so-called "smell of death." My mum's in her 99th year and is fit and well for her age.

 

If you ever want to experience a city which suggests the "smell of death," try visiting Stoke-on-Trent, once described as the finest present-day working example of a city from the middle ages.

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Well Barry, I may have used a little "autistic" licence, but I'll keep that to myself.

 

The social problems of Hull are no worse than in many other towns and cities, but they are certainly there and spill onto the streets. "Yoof culta" has changed a bit over the years!

 

If Hull performed a miracle, it was in finding employment for the tens of thousands who once worked in the fishing inductry, but they did. I think one in three adults worked in that industry once upon a time.

 

As for the architecture, that is a bit of a sore point in Hull. They re-developed the city centre (partly as a result of heavy bombing and derelict buildings) but in the past 25 years, they have destroyed some very interesting architecture and ruined the centre of town with a hideous glass shopping centre close to the City Hall, where there once a fine view across the Humber and the new marina.

 

Actually Barry, my bit of humour about "scrap merchants" is not without foundation, because the "red light district" was, in fact, behind the City Hall once upon a time.

 

The "smell of death" thing is also interesting, but the word I heard started with "s" rather than "d". Apparently, it really does smell in the vicinity of the last remaining bits of medieval wall which once encircled the city.

 

Desperately trying to get this back on topic, St.Mary's Hull (I believe the official "town church" and parish church) was the place where J.B.Dykes was organist and wrote many of his finest hymns.

 

By the by, I LIVED in Hull for 4 years, so I know a bit about the place.

 

MM

[Guest Barry Oakley]

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Well Barry, I may have used a little "autistic" licence, but I'll keep that to myself.

 

The social problems of Hull are no worse than in many other  towns and cities, but they are certainly there and spill onto the streets. "Yoof culta" has changed a bit over the years!

 

If Hull performed a miracle, it was in finding employment for the tens of thousands who once worked in the fishing inductry, but they did. I think one in three adults worked in that industry once upon a time.

 

As for the architecture, that is a bit of a sore point in Hull. They re-developed the city centre (partly as a result of heavy bombing and derelict buildings) but in the past 25 years, they have destroyed some very interesting architecture and ruined the centre of town with a hideous glass shopping centre close to the City Hall, where there once a fine view across the Humber and the new marina.

 

Actually Barry, my bit of humour about "scrap merchants" is not without foundation, because the "red light district" was, in fact, behind the City Hall once upon a time.

 

The "smell of death" thing is also interesting, but the word I heard started with "s" rather than "d".  Apparently, it really does smell in the vicinity of the last remaining bits of medieval wall which once encircled the city.

 

Desperately trying to get this back on topic, St.Mary's Hull (I believe the official "town church" and parish church) was the place where J.B.Dykes was organist and wrote many of his finest hymns.

 

By the by, I LIVED in Hull for 4 years, so I know a bit about the place.

 

MM

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Thanks, MM., for your response. When I was mentioning fine architecture I should have qualified it by referring to the Guildhall, Old Post Office, former banks, the City Hall and onetime Docks Offices. And then there’s Trinity House Navigation School. The High Street also has some notable buildings, particularly Wilberforce’s former residence, the “Black Boy” (suppose that’s PC), and “Ye Olde White Harte” in Silver Street. Then, of course there is Holy Trinity Church and St Mary’s, Lowgate, older and liturgically higher than Holy Trinity but which is the home of a long since defunct 3-manual? organ by Brindley & Foster and which is reputed to contain much Snetzler pipework from an earlier instrument. Rumours have long abounded that St Mary’s is to be deconsecrated, so few are the number of domestic tenants in the Old Town. I hope not.

[MusingMuso]

NB - scary indeed 

 

As to Carlo and Wayne, I love watching them perform.  They may not to be everyone's taste.  I think their musicianship is pretty good and I wouldn't put them down just because they played some pieces at the 'wrong speed' in one particular recital.

 

I know both these gentleman personally and I think they have done much to take the organ from being stuffy,worthy and dreary (as has been the perception in the past) to something worth getting excited about.  I think they are ambassadors for the "King of Instruments", long may people like them continue.

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This is actually very interesting, because in years past, there WAS a breed of "showman organist" who knew how to entertain.

 

"Showmanship" by its' very nature draws attention to personality rather than to the music, which is fine by me, if the person is actually interesting or amusing. People quote all sorts "personalities" in the organ world, but only a very few stand out, and most came from America.

 

The question we must ask, is WHY we need showmanship in the first place. Is it because we need or want to be entertained, like the man who slings a tensioned wire across Niagra and rides across on a bicycle? (Will he? Won't he?)

 

OK, there's a certain "edge of the seat" mentality at work here, but that is quite a valid pleasure, especially if some lunatic is taking on something like the Middelschulte "Perpetuem Mobile" in full public view and risking all; including the ability to walk afterwards.

 

But then consider GREAT performances by Germani, who just got on the organ, sat there and stunned everyone without so much as a flicker of showmanship. He could draw crowds just on his musical ability alone, but how many can do that?

 

I have to admit, that for my money, the greatest entertainers were people like Sidney Torch and Quentin Maclean.....two utterly diferent characters with completely different styles of music-making; the first very "showy" and pianistic, and the latter rather sobre and deadpan, but with a fantastic musical gift. Then there was Virgil Fox, who in my humble opinion, is quite second-rate as compared to Hector Olivera, the Argentinian-born organist who wows people with an electricfying ecclecticism and deep musicianship. Some of the younger American organists are first-rank vurtuosi, who really do the high-wire thing at the console.

 

Wayne Marshal is hyper in the extreme, and I can't ever remember a single organ-work I ever enjoyed which he performed. On the other hand, to hear his jazz playing and pianistic bravura, is something else. Maybe he is just TOO bright for his own good, and thinks just a bit too much in the fast-lane for the rest of us to comprehend. He's definitely the Ayrton Senna of the organ/piano world.

 

Musicianship is something which is completely indpendent of showmanship, and even virtuosity. One of the most beautiful bits of organ-playing I ever heard came from a 13-year-old playing a slow Bach CP. The depth of his understanding and musical feeling was absolutely astounding, in which every tiny nuance mattered.

 

Showmanship and entertainment value can also take over to an absurd extent....maybe to the point when that is all that matters. The supreme example of this just had to be Dudley Moore...comedian, actor, clown and musical virtuoso.

 

I always enjoyed his jazz trio, his comic routines and solo items of musical mayhem with an orchestra, but lest we forget, this was someone who had been an Oxford organ-scholar and could play the organ a bit. I was delighted to watch him on telly accompanying the boys of St.Paul's cathedral; his little legs barely able to reach the pedals. He accompanied beautifully of course.

 

The problem is, the church organ is not usually the best sited instrument for displays of showmanship, and whilst video-screens may help, there's no substitute for a great town hall stage setting or an old theatre-organ rising from the depths.

 

I baulk a little bit at the idea of an organist arriving in tails with a huge grin, saying, "U wants to hear musik? OK...let's make whopee!"

 

I'd love to have seen "Fats" Waller in action, but then, I can be wonderfully shallow.

 

MM

[Vox Humana]

Why do we need showmen? Well, perhaps because it's entertainment before all else that will win new converts to organ music. Or is that too simplistic a view? I'll bet Germani wowed other organists, but did he also wow everyone else and win converts, I wonder?

[MusingMuso]

Why do we need showmen? Well, perhaps because it's entertainment before all else that will win new converts to organ music. Or is that too simplistic a view? I'll bet Germani wowed other organists, but did he also wow everyone else and win converts, I wonder?

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No he didn't, and he didn't need to do.

 

Here's the difference.......

 

Germani was at his peak in the 40's, 50's and 60's, when people still went to church, they had church-music instiled in them from an early age, when proper choirs existed in every town and city, where school music was funded and encouraged (my own school choir was FANTASTIC) and, perhaps importantly, when classical music was held in the highest esteem by those who "wanted to be someone."

 

As an instrument, the organ had enjoyed an extraordinary popularity from the Victorian era right through to, I guess, about 1965: first as a transcription instrument, then as a more serious instrument and even as an entertainment instrument. In other words, people were exposed to the organ on the radio (during the war years especially, when musicians were on active service), in church, in the town-halls, sometimes at school and, last but by no means least, in the local cinemas well into the 1940's.

 

All that has happened since is that people hear orchestral music played by orchestras (more often than not on CD), they don't go to church anymore, schools tend to teach "music appreciation" rather than real music, the cinemas now have great sound systems and the film-scores can be magnificent music in their own rights and, perhaps most importantly of all, the art of musical entertainment has now moved into the arena of electronic synthesisers, special effects, TV, pop concerts and Radio. I suppose we are now in an age of I-pods and instant access via the internet, but I'm not completely clued-up on all that as yet.

 

Add to all this long working hours, traffic jams, economic pressures and the need to go shopping at unsocial hours in order to beat the queues, and who has the time to go to live gigs anymore? It's so much easier to collapse on the sofa and listen to or watch something instantly entertaining.

 

In a nutshell, the concert-hall, the church or maybe even the cinema, are no longer the focal point of everyday social life, whereas they once were.

 

Maybe we simply have to accept that the organ has been marginalised by social circumstances and changes in patterns of behaviour. Musically, it is now a very specialised instrument, which although still having appeal to an elder generation (and an increasingly less mobile and affluent one), only a handful of youngsters express the slightest interest in the instrument, unless it happens to feature in their schooling and general musical exposure, by some miracle of oversight.

 

I suspect that we have much to learn from our friends in the Netherlands.

 

Why is it, that this small country (albeit it with a very rich heritage) can actively demonstrate such support for the organ; both as a solo instrument as as an ensemble/accompaniment instrument?

 

Doesn't it come down to the sort of education system they still have, or is that too simplistic?

 

One thing I find about the Hollanders is that they get off their bums and DO things and GO places, and even an "Orgel Konzert" is something of a social event with a bit of buzz to it; the organists responding accordingly and playing their little hearts out very often.

 

In fact.....I like Holland very much, which is why I go there as often as possible.

 

There's something so very British about people who sit on sofas complaining that they're bored and that there is nothing to do.

 

Still, can anyone imagine local cycle-races stopping the traffic, kids out on a mass running-marathon, a pop festival snaking through the streets and making a frightful din, church bells which play long tunes every hour or kids racing past you on skateboards as you eat out on the street....or......seeing 800 people at an organ-recital? (I did once witness over 1,000 people for an organ-recital at Exeter Cathedral, but that's going back a bit).

 

What went wrong in Britain?

 

MM