Andrew Lucas

I regret that we didn't have a Fly-On-The-Wall documentary team at a service planning meeting, just before the installation of our present Dean. A very senior member of the staff decided that he needed to describe the 'incident' of Peter Tatchell storming into the pulpit and causing a scene at the retirement service of the previous diocesan Bishop. He referred to the intervention of one of the then Canons as being so brave that he almost fisted Mr Tatchell, his intention being to convey that the said Canon was close to punching Tatchell's lights out. Unfortunately under the circumstances this was a poor choice of phrase. Many took it the wrong way and lost plot for several minutes. This includes most of the clergy present so I didn't feel too bad about my own lack of self control!

I had the impression that he hadn't played the organ at all, seriously at least, for decades ... probably since his time at St John's in the war. We played through some of Bach's fugues on the piano in some of my lessons - his favourite was the B minor (organ - BWV 544) - I was 'allowed' to play the pedal part! You couldn't really tell from his piano playing about things like his touch when playing Bach on the organ - I just remember it all being rather stately. But then he was 86! We were primarily concerned with musical structure and he even more so with beautiful lines - so there were lots of stops and starts. I still think that people are getting too hung up on the "right" organ rather than how well does the music come over.

Hmmm. Then we are agreed - eclectic it is. There is a wonderful hymn by Frederick Faber 'There's a wideness in God's mercy' which has the verses : For the love of God is broader than the measure of man's mind, and the heart of the eternal is most wonderfully kind. But we make his love too narrow by false limits of our own; and we magnify his strictness with a zeal he will not own. This could apply to categorising organs into "styles". Aren't organs just good bad or indifferent as musical instruments? Shouldn't we concern ourselves with how well they do the job they were built to do more than being in this style or that style. We all have preferences, and mine would be that if we had 100 instruments preserved around the country for the perfect performance of the music of Herbert Howells that would probably be 97 or 98 too many. And I suspect that HH would have been one of the first to agree ... and, by the way, in terms of organ music Bach was his hero!

I started to type a more detailed reply to Pierre but managed to lose it! And now am in danger of losing the will to live. But I think you have hit the nail on the head ... making assumptions from the written word and a knowledge of history rather than from direct and intimate knowledge of the instruments. Mind you, it is understandable. After all most of us in England think that St Bavos Haarlem is an old baroque organ, (which it appears to be on paper) whereas in reality it is a modern and versatile Neo-classical (?) organ - its certainly not old because it has been revoiced at least twice - and its not eclectic either, because it wasn't designed to play Franck or Vierne, even though one can do certain pieces of this type on it to great musical, if not historically "authentic" effect! (I have even played Howells there before now). But then you can play Bach very effectively at King's, and that organ is neither eclectic nor neo-classical to most Englishmen. You can, however, play Bach Sweelinck Vierne Reger Elgar Howells and Messiaen wonderfully effectively at St Albans, Coventry and Windsor, because they were specifically designed to do that. That's eclectic!

St Albans Organ is not a neo classical organ. It is nothing remotely like the organ you refer to in Antwerp. Eclectic I can just about agree with but neo-classical - never!

I can only speak of my own experiences, but from what I have observed psychological factors actually can play a very large part in determining when the voice breaks. Boys voices here in St Albans seem to last longer than I remember them doing in previous employment at another cathedral. We keep the boys on into year 9, i.e. one year longer than most choir schools which, being prep schools finish in year 8. Most boys make it to the end of year 9 - a few doing it with no problem at all, others by careful management of gradual changes to their voice. Some do leave early, but it has been very rare that they leave earlier than some stage in year 9. I find that stress can play a large factor in the onset of voice change - either stress at home or at school. It can be because of, say, parental break up of marriage or other troubling factors including bullying. Boys here like being part of the choir and never seem to want to leave - which is good, but sometimes I feel that one or two have oustayed their welcome. Persuading them that it's time to move on can be difficult and traumatic for them and I find it takes careful handling and patience (and sometimes endurance) on my part. It's a big thing for them to deal with and cannot be rushed or glossed over. They like being in the team - they have a strong sense of belonging and don't want to lose their precious treble voices. So many manage to hang on to their higher registers and as long as they don't create either musical problems or appear to be straining their voices I let them carry on until they are ready to go. What I observed before, when I worked elsewhere, was something rather like a subtle form of understated peer pressure. The move to a new school at 14 could be embarrassing with a squeaky treble voice (the boys in St Albans change schools at 11 so the pressure they feel at age 13/14 is much less). So the boys at St Paul's tended to "allow" their voices to change earlier - they were leaving the school and choir and moving on so they wanted to grow up that bit earlier. Many had changed voices before they left at the end of year 8 and some even in earlier years. I also thought that the school environment helped that to happen - it could be rather pressured at times. I'm sure that you are right about the earlier awareness of sexual stimuli as well. In a choir school there could be the possibility of being more aware of that and being exposed to it in some form or other than of it happening when living at home with your parents. So I think that the boys themselves and their environment can cause them to have some control over when or how quickly their voices change. I haven't done a scientific study, but this is what I observe here. And I don't think we eat less red meat or have special water in Hertfordshire!

Sorry - going to stick my head above the parapet here. He isn't talentless but he is clueless. He has technique but he hasn't bothered to learn how to play the notes in the score accurately - so he's just making it up. Most of the Widor is there for example but theres a bleeding chunk missing for no structural reason at all. I suspect that he may even not read music and does it by ear - an achievement in itself if that's the case. But music making doesn't even come into it. It's just vacuous nonsense - listen closely to the improvisation - theres no real skill just a few flash ideas - and most organists can sound impressive on the tutti.

I'm disappointed that the taping of his TV series has been 'postponed'. It has the potential to be the organ equivalent of Spinal Tap.

I sense brinkmanship!

Stephen time it right and I can get him in for the IOF A

Yes there is only one thing better than an H & H console ... and that's an H & H console with curved stop jambs!

Many thanks for taking the time to answer my query. At least I wasn't imagining that something had been changed (I had forgotten about the swell box changes to the choir and solo too). I'm sure you're right to see the changes that took place in Wiegand's tenure as City organist as part of this instrument's heritage and worthy of preservation. It's one of the grandest organs of the world. Hearing, and seeing, Olivier Latry play it in a recital about 12 years ago is something that I will always treasure - fantastic organ and a fantastic musician.

There are also many examples of pneumatic actions by Hill, Harrison and Norman and Beard which work well today (i.e. 100 years later). To try and answer Nathan's (Tubular Pneumatic) earlier question: As the use of a stable electricity supply became more common place, didn't pneumatic action get overtaken by electro-pneumatic actions for 3 reasons? 1) with advances in technology and manufacture of electro magnets, electro pneumatic actions turned out to be quicker to make, took up less room inside the organ and are much less fiddly to install and adjust 2) enabled the console to be placed anywhere, within reason - only the speed of sound being the restriction as opposed to the length of the pneumatic tube runs 3) the response of the action was quicker and cleaner on the whole, especially in terms of repetition and of course the organist could have more gadgets on the console! In the USA money was more freely available so organs were upgraded to the new technology more quickly.

I wonder if you would be able to answer something that has always been a question mark in my mind since I played the organ in the early 90s, as I suspect you may know this organ well. On the Choir there is a 4' Celestina (or Celestino) stop. From memory it is a flute stop and at the time I played the organ it was tuned to beat like a conventional celeste. But there is not an 8' "celeste" (i.e. undulating) stop on the Choir, so the only undulating rank out of 20 stops is a 4' flute. I had expected this stop to be non-beating, principally because I had known that Hill had used the name Celestina for a conventional 4' stopped flute in that period, e.g. on the Swell at Lichfield Cathedral and which is still called Celestina Flute. It's certainly unusual as it is (or was) and I wondered if it had been re-tuned either as a misunderstanding of the name or even opportunistically to give another colour, using the name as licence to do so. I suggested this but told very firmly - no its a celeste. It seems even more odd because I think that the organ has only two 8' celestes in its 120 or so stops, one on the Swell and one on the Echo. It's not very important of course, but as an historical instrument which is claimed to be in almost unaltered form, things like this and the 1' rank and the switched about reeds beg questions.

I'm not really sure if he got it wrong or not. I have a suspicion that there was a certain amount misinformation going on at times and perhaps Sumner got caught out by it. But equally he may have been right. Or he may have misunderstood. There were all sorts of peculiar things about this organ's history - odd bits and pieces which make it difficult to be clear about what happened when, for example. (Perhaps a bit like sorting out a composer's real intentions from different manuscripts and copies). I don't think it's essential to know because it's still a fantastic musical instrument as it is now, but it holds a fascination for me at least.

Reassuringly, there's actually quite a lot of new instruments being or about to be constructed in the UK before Worcester: St Peters Church, St Albans (Mander, IIIP/39) It is all brand spanking new. The old organ was, frankly, rather unpleasant and largely constructed out of bits of other organs. Although the case gave the impression of being an old one it was only parts of one, patched together as a screen. (Bill Drake has taken the oldest parts of the case as material for future use in a 'period' instrument). The new organ has two new case fronts. It looks glorious and sounds very good so far (the Great and Swell have been pretty well completed now). The standard of the workmanship and detail is outstanding. I wouldn't fret about the Tuba. This new organ has an integrity the old one could never have, if perhaps a little on the large side.

It's all a bit odd, isn't it? I remember reading that bit of information too, but it doesn't quite stack up from the information I gleaned whilst I worked there. When Willis first built the organ in 1872 the Great (and also the Swell) pipes sat in two storeys, as they do now. On the top level sat the 3 Great reeds and the Solo organ (2 small soundboards I think, one for the 8' and 4' Flutes plus the two small reeds and the other for the 8' and 4' Tubas). In the next rebuild (1899) the softer stops were moved to the much enlarged new Solo division on bay further east, with the pipes of the Pedal organ, whilst the Great reeds and the Tubas remained. The old soundboard for the removed stops was reused and two new Great Diapasons (Nos I and IV) were placed on it. Actually the old Solo 8' Harmonic Flute bass pipes - 10 pipes in all - were the pipes facing east and west in the sides of the case and they just became the bass of the new Open Diapason IV. (They were still marked as Harmonic Flute pipes when they were removed in the 1970s.) This layout remained until the 1970s. It was all very cramped up there which is why the two extra Diapasons were removed in the end (and it still is, even though now there are only the Great reeds and the Tubas at this level). The rest of the Great pipes (all the original stops except one) remained on the soundboard on the level below and it could be assumed that they were not altered or moved around. So it's impossible to guess whether there were several different wind pressures but it seems unlikely that Opens I and IV, being on the same chest, were on different wind pressures. And the Great Double Open and Principal were on the lower chest. A bit of mystery but I think not really that important. I never understood the Wood Open Diapason thing either. It appeared on the organ in 1899, and the same stop seemed to become a Tibia, as you say, in the 1930 restoration of the organ after its five year sojourn in the Nave. There was a Claribel on the Great in 1872. That seems to have disappeared in 1899, but there is no mention of its pipes either staying or going. The history is all a bit blurry but maybe someone knows what actually happened.

You're too kind - but no I haven't! It's just that having spent 17 years playing that organ, and the best part of a decade being responsible to the organist and the D&C for its maintenance and welfare, I made sure that I knew as much about the organ as I could possibly find out. The Niland and Plumley book came out after I left but I was aware of it being in preparation. I find it answers all questions and the more you read it the more you see how much has been altered over the years, and more interestingly what happened to it between 1925 & 1929 and again between 1939 and 1946. It's like detective story and I think it's fascinating stuff. But then, I would

They are Willis pipes from the pedal stop of 1899.

Dear Mr Bournias What I request you to do is wait until you receive the book, because then you can wade through it and find all the answers, where they are to be found. I have found no written evidence of the added Great stops being on a higher pressure - nor is it particularly relevant because it depends what the voicer does with the pipes on that pressure that matters. The two stops were the Opens 1 and 4 i.e the strongest and the weakest, so that only the former would have been likely to make any difference to the effect of the chorus. (Quite what Open No 4 was for is debateable, as the No 3 of the four - the current No 2 - is rather soft in itself). Fr Willis added a Pedal 16' Open Diapason, of metal pipes, in the Dome organ in 1899. That is the stop that I think you have assumed is made of Lewis pipes. When I left St Paul's in 1998 the redundant Gemshorn pipes (made redundant by the return to the Choir organ of Fr Willis's original Choir 4' Principal to its rightful home) were being stored inside the organ. I do not know if they are still there, but expect that they are (also the remains of the unused original 1872 pipes of the Pedal Violoncello and Mixture were stored for safety by the Dome organ blowers). There is a problem for anyone coming to conclusions on any subject based upon suppositions. At times I see things being asserted as fact when I know they are coming to this conclusion by assuming things. This then gets spread about as 'fact'. St Paul's organ is one of the worst victims of this kind and perhaps that's one of the dangers of things like message boards. It's not helped by there being a lot of organ folklore about certain aspects of this organ e.g. the provenance of the Trompette Militaire and, dare I say, some misinformation by Willis III (one example of that is that the very highest wind pressures in both St Pauls and Liverpool Cathedral organs are not quite as high as the published pressures - at St Paul's 30" is in reality a bit lower - about 26" or 27" I believe. Another is that Willis said that he threw away the American shallots and tongues of the Trompette when they arrived in the Willis factory, however I have been assured that they were still attached to the pipes in the 1970s!) Anyway, I hope I have now cleared up your questions as much as possible.

Wasn't St Paul's called the parish church of the Empire about 100 years ago? It's certainly the national church for state occasions.

Er... yes you did. I quote you: "This is a sensitive discussion but one that has not been satisfactorily addressed as yet since the 1970s. The committee to decide the spec on the St Paul organ rebuild made certain decisions that to me do not entirely seem logical..." and ... "Why was it decided to eliminate certain Willis pipes that were already in situ? ... a Tibia 8 of wood which was a diapason open on top by Willis III I gather on the Great"

Dear Mr Bournias I have recommended this book at least twice in posts on this message board, though possibly not directly in response to your questions, which could so easily be answered by reading it. Your reference to the Tibia going in 1977 is out by at least 30 years! Many printed specifications of the organ from the 1950s on refer to this by implication and therefore that's what I meant by your information being out of date. Whether you mean it or not, there is an implied slight in the questions you ask and a hint that mistakes were made in the last re-building of the organ. No solution is ever perfect, but I can assure you that the organ is magnificent in every way. Andrew

Yes. the two Diapasons - you say high pressure, but were they? They were respectively the first and fourth diapasons. They were added in 1899 on the old Solo soundboard at the top of the case. I understand that the bass pipes crowded the lower part of that case and the balance of the chorus was compromised (no stops above 8' were added). In the end it was decided to remove them and additionally this would help improve the layout and let the original chorus project better. The Tibia was replaced with a new Claribel in 1946. No-one liked it so it was replaced with a Stopped Diap in 1972 and later a Claribel based on the one at Salisbury was added in the 1990s. The Great Bourdon was removed - it was useless in the position it was in (below the console where it didn't manage to speak out or more crucially with any of the other Great stops) because there was never enough room for it on the Great soundboard, either in 1930 or 1972. The Altar division was also apparently ineffective. It was originally a Fr Willis string organ (+Vox Humana), designed to accompany the priest singing at Bodley's High Altar and was positioned east of the main organ (this was destroyed in the 2nd world war). Meanwhile in the 1930s it was remade into a 'flute' organ by cutting the pipes down (one of the Vox Angelica ranks was made into the bass of the Choir Nazard in 1930 and they are still in the South Choir organ). After the war it was revoiced 50% louder to make an Echo organ (Willis II's description). Christopher Dearnley told me that it was still inaudible! So it was ditched. Solo Chorus Mixtures - these were of no use - too loud in the Quire and the new Dome chorus superceded them. Choir Koppelflute - I have been told that it was the old Harmonic Flute cut down and revoiced with new tops. No-one liked it and if the story is true its a bit of tatty organ building that has been tidied up. The Harmonic Flute was reinstated in the 1990s (as was the Choir Bourdon, Principal and Corno di Bassetto). Your information seems a bit out of date. All this information is in an excellent book (ISBN 0 906894 28 X) I've mentioned elsewhere in replies to you. Buy the book.

The one thing you miss out is that Gottfried's trademark stamp on the boot of bottom C is there, but the name was scored out (probably by Willis). I think that, on the whole, I'd trust Ian Bells' assessment that the stop was supplied by Gottfried. Who originally made the tubes is possibly a different matter.