pcnd5584
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Posts posted by pcnd5584
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On 03/03/2021 at 20:42, contraviolone said:
Having read that it would be hoped they will respect the current voicing of the pipework of this instrument during the restoration. Given the results though from other recent work elsewhere I am not completely convinced of this.
They do seem to be rather nervous of upper-work. Anything above a 29th appears to be anathema. It will be good to hear the re-designed instrument in York Minster in the flesh, as it were, at some point. However, in that vast space, and with that acoustic energy, I wonder if they will miss their Choir Cymbal (29-33-36)?
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On 05/03/2021 at 21:38, Choir Man said:
The organ is being rededicated at the 11am Eucharist this Sunday. This will be live-streamed on YouTube.
The minster has also posted a video reviewing the project:
It's great - apart from the hideous, repetitive music. And we don't even get to hear the instrument....
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On 16/03/2021 at 22:10, contraviolone said:
It's just a resultant stop. We may trust the French to tart up the word so that it sounds just superb when it isn't.
That organ case in Evreux is utterly hideous. What were they thinking? Totally out of sympathy with its surroundings and completely grotesque.
Not always - the term is also used to refer to reeds with half-length bass resonators. (Nôtre-Dame de Paris formerly had a 'Bombarde Acoustique' in the Récit-Expressif; however the pipes were replaced with full-length resonators, in the 1990-92 rebuild.)
As mentioned above, Orléans Cathedral does have a resultant 32ft. reed, with pipes which go down to G8, to be used in conjunction with the 16ft. Bombarde. On recordings, it doesn't sound very convincing to my ears. I would have preferred a normal 32ft. Bombarde, even if it had to stop at G8. -
On 24/03/2021 at 21:14, stewartt said:
Oh dear, this looks like the sort of specification that people drew up in the sixties. And again we see that fundamental mistake of a Swell division with no 8ft Diapason. Only two significant 8ft manual flue stops on an instrument of this size, and one of those derived from the pedal? Really? Oh dear. Space is presumably limited but is the solution to pile upperwork on to limited foundation tone? I shudder to think what the 'Herald Trumpet' will sound like if it ever gets installed.
Perhaps when I hear it I will eat my words but I have a horrible feeling .........
Yes - I had the same thoughts. I wonder if it might also lack subtlety. No decent 16ft. flue on the Pedal Organ. (The previous instrument did at least possess an Open Wood. Mind you, it was at ground level, so there was more room to lay out the organ.)
I wonder if they will regret disposing of this: -
On 01/03/2021 at 16:44, S_L said:
Update on the new Ruffatti organ at Pershore. It seems it is going in at the end of this year - 2021
Pershore Abbey- Pipe Dreams :: Pershore Times Online Today (pershoreonline.co.uk)
'Page not found.'
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I have taken quite a lot of photographs of the dismantling of the Minster organ, and also several of the South Quire Aisle without any organ components remaining (except for the humidifier, which is directly connected to the water mains). They are too numerous to upload here, and the files are also too large. If anyone wishes to see them, please send me a PM, and I shall post them on my Facebook page, and send you a link.
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On 03/05/2021 at 21:57, undamaris said:
I'm curious as to whether there are plans to extend the Orchestral Trumpet to bottom C at Wimborne 🤔
No. It will remain from C13 only. The top five or six notes are flue-pipes.
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On 26/01/2021 at 16:37, Damian Beasley-Suffolk said:
It was established and accepted in these pages that the provision of digital subbass voices at Buckfast was due to lack of space in the abbey church. There is nothing reprehensible in this.
Maybe. However, the previous instrument already possessed a fairly effective 32ft. stopped wood rank. They might just as well have retained it.
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On 16/01/2020 at 06:42, S_L said:
The orgue de Choeur which, of course, would traditionally accompany them, doesn't seem to exist any more. I remember pcnd, and if I have got this wrong I apologise to him, being quite vitriolic about the instrument. I think he described it as the worst instrument he had ever played! All accompaniment comes from the Grande Orgue which hangs high on the south wall of the nave just by the crossing.
No, SL - you are quite correct. It was, quite simply, execrable. The concert in which I played was video recorded, so I know that it was not my faulty memory. (It formerly occupied 'boxes' dispersed behind the choir-stalls. These boxes looked like nothing so much as a set of coal bunkers.)
I was most interested to read your account of the service which you attended - it sounds fabulous. I should love to have heard this, particularly the organ improvisations, but also the excellent choir.
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On 19/11/2019 at 08:54, Rowland Wateridge said:
I’m sure there was no mention of it in the original specification, but I suppose matching stop heads can be provided for both consoles. The absence of a 32’ Pedal flue was vigorously debated earlier on this thread. Paradoxically, the previous Downes/ Walker organ had one.
There is a photograph on NPOR C00020 showing wooden pedal pipes of the former organ protruding into the aisle, but not excessively so, and they are no more obtrusive than those in the similar position at Hereford Cathedral - or the new Quire console and stairs at Canterbury Cathedral.
....Or they could have dispensed with one (or both) of the 32ft. reeds, and installed twelve pipes in the 32ft. octave, to extend the Bourdon downwards. Or, they could have retained the previous perfectly serviceable 32ft. Sub Bass, from the Downes?walker instrument.
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I have played this instrument (as left by H&H) several times, both for services and a lunch-time concert. I must admit that I rather liked it as it was. I also wonder whether the incumbent organists may come to regret the use of a high gloss finish on the new jamb-plates. The propensity for unwanted reflections from the console lights and background lighting may be both visually distracting and confusing when trying to read the stop-heads.
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On 27/11/2019 at 11:06, Colin Pykett said:
Very likely. There is a large and well known church in the south of England which has both, and they have timers. It is instructive to read them! And the tracker console does literally gather dust. It's a great pity, not only because of the obvious neglect of an asset which cost a great deal of money, but because its mechanical action was very good when first built (I would go so far as to say astonishingly good) for a large instrument. Having said that, its position is far from being attractive from the player's point of view in terms of hearing the instrument in a balanced manner, and in seeing what's going on in the building during a service. ...
In fairness, the mechanical action is rather heavy (when coupled) - presumably partly because it has to turn through 45°, after it leaves the console. In addition, the upstairs console now has a considerable number of registers 'missing', which are only playable from the mobile Nave console.
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On 05/12/2019 at 09:18, Colin Pykett said:
It looks as though this might be one of those organs which rely on flue choruses carried to high pitches to achieve power and projection, but without the alternative range of dynamics and colour available from a palette of other stops including warmer unisons and quiet reeds. If this is so, and merely expressing a personal opinion, I find that the power and projection are indeed likely to be there but the effect can become (to me) aurally wearisome and a little boring after a while. One of the first instruments of this type I encountered in this country was a long time ago when the Marcussen arrived at St Mary's, Nottingham. Still lauded as a landmark instrument, it might nevertheless be significant that they installed a digital a few years ago on which they seemed to rely heavily when I last took stock of the situation. There's nothing wrong in having more than one instrument in a church of course, especially a large one, since they can be used to support different functions. But one wonders whether the digital at Pershore will actually be disposed of, or retained for use in situations for which the new one might be less than optimum?
Absolutely, Colin. There appears to be a paucity of manual reed stops, for one thing - and too many octave couplers. The scheme is rather odd in several respects. I appreciate the constraints on both volume and height, but what a pity that the site of the former instrument could not be utilised. This had more height and room available.
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I have discs of both Glenn Gould and Sir Andrăs Schiff playing Bach's Forty-Eight Preludes and Fugues on pianos. Whilst I find it difficult to listen to Gould these days (not least because his continuous grunting and groaning are irritating), Schiff's performances are wonderful. (I still have the Promenade Concert which Vox Humana mentioned saved on a HDD.)
For my money, I'm very happy to hear them played on a modern piano. I have a very limited tolerance for the sound of a harpsichord. I find it too thin and metallic. It is (clearly) also rather limited in dynamic variation. I suspect also that I am more tolerant of a little rubato here and there. I don't like anything too wayward, but the relentless progress of a metronomic performance palls for me after a short time. True, I haven't heard Preston's Bach recordings, so I cannot say; however, I do like music to breathe.
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On 23/10/2019 at 11:15, innate said:
I like your 4-man spec. Thanks for posting that. On paper it’s less “sparkly” and more “gravitas” than mine 🙂
Funnily enough the choir accompaniment isn’t the main thing, although there might be occasional choral evensongs. I respect your experience but aren’t there many examples from the 17th and 18th century of secondary divisions with no 8' principal base?
There are indeed. However, I suspect that most of these work better than many English examples, because of the design and voicing of the individual ranks. And generally because these instruments are often situated in buildings with a more favourable acoustic ambience.
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On 23/10/2019 at 16:18, AJJ said:
Nice! I would however like a 2’ on the Swell and as someone mentioned above, a Gamba 8’ or suchlike on the Great might be nice too. A not too narrow Sesquialtera II and 2’ Fifteenth on the Choir would also broaden resources as would a 4’ Fifteenth on the Pedal. Maybe a Cornet V from TG on the Solo to go with the big reed? Is this yours PCND? I seem to have lost the thread...or plot...or something!
A
It is indeed mine, AJJ.
The Gamba is on the Choir. With a Choir to Great, this can be achieved; a desire to keep to the smallest practicable stop-list was the aim, here. The Swell Fifteenth is in the Mixture. It occurred to me how little I used the Swell Fifteenth on the Minster Organ, when accompanying the choir. In fact, on my 'accompanimental' channel, the Hautbois is set to draw before the Fifteenth. The Pedal upper-work - again, the smallest practical size. Truro is only one stop larger (and that's another 8ft. open metal stop). The Sesquialtera and Cornet: once again space precludes these registers. In any case, it was drawn-up with a Romantic/Victorian bias, so these wouldn't necessarily feature.
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On 23/05/2018 at 10:36, S_L said:
My apologies, I didn't see this post.
No it doesn't include an improvised March & Fugue by Raymond Sunderland but it does include the following:.
1) Bridal Fanfare and March. - Raymond Sunderland - written for his daughter's marriage in 1972.
2) Legend Op. 141 - Karg-Elert
3) Chorale Improvisation "Freu dich sehr, o meine Seele" Op. 65 No. 5 - Karg- Elert
4) Chorale Improvisation "In Dulci jubilo' Op. 75 No. 2 - Karg-Elert
5) Chorale Improvisation "O welt, ich muss dich lassen" Op. 65 No. 21 - Karg-Elert
6) Chorale Prelude on "Urbs Hierusalem beata" - Healey Willan
7) Apostolic Symphony - Garth Edmundson
The record, on the VISTA label (VPS 1006) was made in the evening of the 2nd of October 1972 after the rebuild of the Priory organ by Laycock and Bannister in 1967/68.
Hope that helps.
My apologies, also - I have only just now seen your reply.
This is certainly interesting. Presumably Raymond Sunderland made at least two recordings. -
23 hours ago, innate said:
Spreadsheet unavailable [see attached graphic]
There could, hypothetically, be an existing chair case for the Choir which would limit the number of foundation flues. Maybe, as in some “box organs” there might be room for an open 8' from Middle C, but I suspect that won’t satisfy you 🙂 I quite like having my choices limited in some regards and I hadn’t really thought of this department as being a traditional English choral tradition accompanimental division at all; the Swell and Great are designed to be sufficient in that regard.
The Bombarde Flutes I imagined to be open, quite strongly voiced, particularly in the treble, definitely not Stopped or Chimney (those are specified elsewhere) but capable of being used as pedal flutes when required in eg trio sonatas. I like to leave some room for the builder to choose. I wouldn’t initially have thought of harmonic flutes for either but there’s a lovely one at St Michael and All Angel’s, Bedford Park (referred to above) which seems very at home in an otherwise quite classical stop list.
(Spreadsheet copied as .rtf, and posted above.)
Having spent twenty-six years accompanying the Minster Choir (in Wimborne), with similar G.O. and Swell flues, I would state that these are insufficient for either variety or in order to avoid aural boredom. If the proposed instrument is not intended to accompany a good choir, with a fairly wide repertoire, then it is probably okay. However, again from experience, a single Chimney Flute won't be enough adequately to support that much upper-work.
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On 19/10/2019 at 09:37, innate said:
I couldn’t open your spreadsheet spec.
One particular I could have mentioned is that this might be for a relatively small historic case, hence the slightly small pedal and swell divisions.
I think the idea is that the Bombarde reeds are available via the coupler rather like an “Appel” (if that’s the right word); possibly easier to add and subtract than if they were on the Great, especially if there is a reversible pedal and/or thumb piston.
With 9 8' flues on the manuals it beats some “classical” Cathedral organs. Christ Church, Oxford has only 7!
Spreadsheet - odd; I'm not sure why. It opens fine for me - but then, the original is saved on my computer, so it might just be reverting to that.
Slender foundations - I was thinking particularly of the Choir Organ, which has a fair amount of upper-work, but only a single 8ft. Chimney Flute with which to support it. This was (and is) a serious failing of the Minster organ. I should want at least two other 8ft. ranks on the Choir Organ.
In addition, on the Bombarde Organ, it would be helpful to specify the type of flutes available. Are they open, stopped, chimney, harmonic....? The Cornet is complete, so it doesn't require an 8ft. stopped Flute to be drawn at the same time.
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On 02/10/2019 at 19:47, James Goldrick said:
Improvised Sortie Excerpt - Florence Duomo 10 Dec 2017
Here's a link to the improvised Sortie after the Sunday morning Gregorian Mass in December 2017. Taken the morning after the inaugural concert with Latry playing the Poulenc Concerto.
Sounded absolutely spectacular.
It does indeed. And, even listening through average quality speakers, the reverberation appears to be somewhat livelier than that at Saint Paul's Cathedral.
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I think that the Pedal and Swell organs are too small in proportion. In addition, the foundation work is somewhat slender. My preference is for at least one chorus reed on the G.O. The problem with a separate Bombarde Organ is, while it may increase flexibility on the one hand, on the other it necessitates adding a coupler every time that the reeds are required on the G.O. In French symphonic music, this would quickly become wearisome.
I note that this scheme is intended for a large parish church; I think that it may be a little small for that - depending on what it will be expected to do. If the musical duties involve choral accompaniment of roughly 'cathedral-type' repertoire, I should wish for a greater spread of 8ft. tone. And a somewhat larger Swell Organ, with a chorus mixture and a conventional reed chorus.
I did once design a small cathedral organ, which I tried to ensure that not only was there a good variety of foundation tone, but that there was adequate chorus-work, and that it would work convincingly as a tonal entity:
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I believe that a previous poster recommended removing the Dulciana in favour of a 4ft. flute of some description (a Harmonic Flute might be a good idea). I would certainly favour that over losing either the Stopped Diapason or the Claribel Flute. I must admit that I have never found a Dulciana to be the slightest use on any organ. I realise that this is a fairly small instrument, and there would be no very quiet register (assuming that the Dulciana is such a rank); however, to be able to swap between two different 8ft. flutes can be very useful.
Years ago, a local organ builder rebuilt a smallish two-clavier instrument in a small parish church a few miles from where I sit at the moment. Among other things, he removed the Stopped Diapason on the G.O., in order to put in a Fifteenth. This left a Dulciana and a robust Open Diapason as the only 8ft. registers. Playing this instrument is now rather frustrating. The Dulciana is colourless and far too small to be of any accompanimental use. And the loss of the Stopped Diapason is most keenly felt.
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I have a copy of this recording. The playing is stunning - as is the instrument.This is my absolute favourite Reger Fugue. I have played it myself a number of times, either for recitals or as the voluntary after a carol service. The last two pages are really effective, and the final system, with the full harmonisation of the final line of the chorale is absolutely breathtaking.
Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral
in The Organ
Posted
Evening Robert - many thanks indeed for your reply, and for the information.
I was particularly interested in the G.O. Mixture V scheme. Whilst, as you say, numbers on a screen convey little of the aural effect, I note that an interval in the 16ft. harmonic series has been introduced as early as C37; I would be interested to hear this stop (and its effect as a cap to the chorus) in the building.
I have only played the Minster organ once, a year or two after the PPO work in 1993, and I cannot recall much about it. (I do remember timing how long it took to walk the entire external length of the Minster - and being slightly surprised at how long it took.)
I would very much like to come and hear the Minster organ in the building. Whilst it did sound impressive on one or two recordings, it is difficult to gain a truly accurate aural impression without actually being there.
I think that I was very much thinking of the Walker here at Wimborne Minster. (The Cymbal 29-33-36 is staying where it is - it brings this instrument alive in the very dry acoustic ambience of the church in a way that no other stop does. Well, there is the Orchestral Trumpet, en chamade - but this is quite a different effect....) At Wimborne, the compound stops were some of the best I have ever encountered, and were designed as a cumulative effect - much in the same way as adding successive departments at Sint Bavokerk, Haarlem literally electrifies the building with sound.
At the Minster, each stop is a model of cohesion; nothing screams or sounds 'like bottles being thrown into a recycling bin'. I suppose that I wondered if, in the vast acoustic of York Minster, whether the upper frequencies were really present in a way that brought the sound to life - but in quite a different manner to powerful reeds.
The G.O. is:
C1 19-22-26-29
C13 15-19-22-26
C25 12-15-19-22
C37 8-12-15-19
C49 8--8-12-15
This of course avoids introducing harmonics in the 16ft series near the top of the compass, which in the Minster would have required very careful handling.
The Swell Mixture is:
C1 22-26-29
G#21 19-22-26
G#33 15-19-22
G#45 12-15-19
D51 8-12-15
And the Positive Cymbal is:
C1 29-33-36
G#9 26-29-33
E17 22-26-29
C25 19-22-26
G#33 15-19-22
E41 12-15-19
C49 8-12-15
G#57 1-8-12