pcnd5584
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Posts posted by pcnd5584
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The Britten has usually received unsympathetic comments. It is so odd: he wrote marvellously, idiomatically, and with originality, when using the organ to accompany a choir. ...
I am not sure about this. I find the organ accompaniments to the hymn God moves in a mysterious way in Saint Nicolas to be aurally awkward, perhaps even indicating that he was unaware of the ability of the organ to supply gravitas through sub-unison clavier tone. Furthermore, I also dislike the accompaniment to his Jubilate Deo, in C major. Aside from the fact that the middle crescendo is difficult to pull off either smoothly or convincingly*, I find some of the figuration sounds unconvincing.
Neither am I particularly happy with the organ part of Rejoice in the Lamb (which I find to be a strange piece). Parts of it seem unnecessarily fiddly for the end result. I would question that it is entirely idiomatic - original, yes.
* I have heard it said that he simply wished to push the technique of the player to the limit. However, I remain unconvinced that this is the case here. Compare this accompaniment to Mulet's Tu es petra, to see how carefully someone who actually played the organ wrote. It falls brilliantly under the fingers. Note how, consistently, each time a hand has to change position, either a lower or upper note (depending on the direction in which the hand has to travel) is omitted, to enable a fluent, accurate transition to be made, without blurring the sound, or clipping notes.
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From the photograph (and instances of this type of thing in other instruments), I would guess that the lowest six notes are stopped wood - and inside the cases. Although it is difficult to say conclusively from the photograph, the Pedal towers do not look to be approaching eighteen feet in height - particularly since they are surmounted by pavilions or whatever is the correct term.
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I caught the second half of the BBCR3 Choral Evensong from Merton yesterday. This probably isn't the appropriate place to discuss the choir. The organ in the hymn and Britten voluntary sounded full and rich. Anyone else hear it?
Ah - so that is where it was from.
I listened until part-way through the Nunc Dimittis, so I did not hear much of the organ. The acoustic sounded more dry than I would have expected from this chapel.
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Can't it be all of those.....
?Now that is just greedy....
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MM - do you have any photographs of organ consoles, please (at least three-quarter, if not full view - or even of each stop-jamb)? If so, I should be very interested to see them, if this were possible, please.
Thank you.
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Reubke's Sonata on the 94th Psalm, perhaps - or is this too 'dark'?
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Interesting exercise - Design 5 manual Harrison Organ....
Violone 32, Gross Geigen 16, Double Claribel Flute 16, Open Diapason I, Open Diapason II, Geigen, Hohl Flute, Stopped Diapason, Quint 5 1/3, Octave, Geigen Principal, Wald Flute, Octave Quint, Super Octave, Harmonics 17.19.21.22, Mixture 15.19.22.26.29, Contra Tromba, Tromba Rompette Harmonique, Octave Tromba....
etc....
Not too difficult really, is it....
The only pause for thought might be at the stage of the fifth clavier - should it be a Bombarde Organ, or perhaps an Echo Organ - or even a Celestial Organ....?
It will be interesting to see what the scheme looks like when it is published.
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In quick searches, I’ve found nowt on either the Cathedral’s or H&H’s websites.
Could this “NEW 5M organ” actually be a form of shorthand for “New, £5,000,000 organ” ?
It could, although this would be rather expensive - even by Harrisons' standards.
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... As for Vierne, would re-assigning divisions not make it in fact easier to play music that was based on a overall three-manual standard with GO, Pos and Récit on I, II and III? Of course the resources of an English cathedral-style organ a different from that of a French c. 1900 one, but would you really need to re-orchestrate as much as to have five manuals at your disposition all the time? ...
Best,
Friedrich
I was thinking in terms of the necessary mental agility of having to keep playing this fairly demanding piece, and think about from which keyboard various divisions were currently residing - not in terms of whether this would be a suitable way of registering this movement.
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Good to hear that things seem to move on in Canterbury.
Only one question, provocative perhaps: Who needs all those manuals in an organ with electric action, where it should be no problem to assign and re-assign keyboards and divisions by pressing the stepper?
Best,
Friedrich
For one thing, this will place a greater burden on the memory of the player. ('Now where did I transfer the Secondary G.O.?') This may be manageable when one is simply sitting at the console, perhaps during a sermon - but it is not something I should want to have to worry about whilst playing the last movement of Vierne's Sixième Symphonie, for example.
In addition, if (for example) you were thinking of only having a three-clavier console, controlling five manual divisions, this could both complicate registration and restrict the ability to produce contrasting effects, again for example.
In any case, I have encountered more faulty steppers * and sequencers on cathedral organs in this country, than any other faulty console or action component . They can also take a very long time to set up - and again, the possibility of making an error is increased.
* I cite but three examples as an illustration.:
1) York Minster (c.1995). It has in all probability been fixed now - but it was exceedingly unreliable when I played there during that summer - when the system was fairly new.
2) Gloucester Cathedral (At the opening recital, January 2000). I know this was faulty - I was turning pages for DJB. Again, it was a new system. During Franck's Deuxième Choral, the stepper decided (unbidden) to return to an earlier channel (or level). DJB managed superbly to play from memory, whilst riffling back through the score, in order to ascertain on which level he had set this piece.
3) Chester Cathedral. This summer (2013). Apparently, this sequencer is so unreliable, those of us playing this otherwise wonderful instrument were advised strongly to leave it well alone. (In any case, it is not as if this instrument is under-supplied with divisional or general pistons.)
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Don’t. You might find yourself, as I did, in a respected church where the pastor casually refers to “Christ’s birthday” being 24 December, with you being the only one in the congregation challenging the date.
Best,
Friedrich
.... And the year. (Many Biblical authorities state that Christ was born during 4 BC - although again this may be wrong, since Herod ordered the deaths of every male child aged two and under, after talking with the Magi. Therefore Christ may have been born up to two years before this date.)
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There were some minor tonal/voicing changes in the 1992 session of work, and remember reading about it at the time - possibly in that year's Christmas edition of the Radio Times of all places. I'm pretty sure the Great Mixture IV (which dominates the chorus in the BWV 547i you mentioned) has been revised.
Indeed - I too recall reading something to this effect.
With reference to Alastair's comment regarding the Choir Organ at King's: this was of course unique amongst instruments by Arthur Harrison. Whilst the Choir Organ at Westminster Abbey gained a Twelfth, Gemshorn Fifteenth*, a Tierce and a Dulciana Mixture (19-22) at the time of the 1937 rebuild, King's, with its Nazard, Dulcet (2ft.), Tierce, Larigot and Twenty Second had the most complete upper-work out of all of Arthur Harrison's Choir organs - even if he was unable to appreciate the value of the stops which he provided.
In so far as the 32ft. Double Ophicleide is concerned, personally, I am glad that its use appears to be limited to the last chord of a loud piece. Given that it is voiced to speak on a wind pressure greater than many cathedral organ Tuba ranks (approximately 450mm - the same as the G.O. reeds on this instrument), it is extremely powerful - and rather too fundamental, with little harmonic development. For versatility and musicality, in my view one would have to travel a great distance in order to better the superb Hill Contra Trombone at Chester Cathedral.
Incidentally, may I offer a plea to Tony Newnham: please could you consider undoing the latest software upgrade of the NPOR. My reasons for this request are two-fold. Firstly, it appears that it is no longer possible to use the 'back' button on either IE or Firefox, in order to return to the 'Search by address' box - it simply returns me to my homepage. (Neither is it possible to 'bookmark' this search page - only the NPOR home page; the search facility requires another step of the browser.) Secondly, having the successive surveys listed chronologically from bottom to top - which is the opposite of that which obtained formerly - is a little like trying to read one of Noel Mander's 'upside-down' stop-lists, as published in one of his old advertisements in back-issues of The Organ. In addition, personally, I preferred the former type-face. The present version (which gives the stop names in bold characters) appears unnecessary and 'clunky'.
* Although this rank may simply have been the former Harmonic Gemshorn (2ft.) revoiced.
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I didn't hear it, but I gather from comments on Facebook that (a) today is Back to Church Sunday and (b ) that the music was of the type that prevents me going back to church.
Succinctly put, Vox.
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All Hallows' Gospel Oak (1915) has both Octave and Violoncello on the pedal; extensions to Open Wood and Violone, respectively. Nothing above 8' here.
It was my understanding that Arthur Hill was the son of Thomas and therefore grandson of William. ...
And mine, too. I have no idea why I should have originally typed 'nephew'. I have now corrected this error.
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Thank you, Innate - at least this gives me something to work with.
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As a musical aside - but still on topic with where this line seems to have gone - the BBC R4 morning service today - what was/is that all about? Sorry, but I switched off after a while!
I am impressed that you gave it that long. I managed until the introduction of the first 'song'.
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NPOR is fine for me also, on both Chrome and IE.
I link directly to this page: http://www.npor.org.uk/xnpor_search_keyword.shtml
This is also true here - although I preferred the previous typeface; the new one is 'clunky'.
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Could any board member (I have already tried Barry Williams) advise on a suitable hourly rate for a professional, experienced organist for recording fees, please? I have also tried the ISM and the RSCM and, whilst I can find plenty regarding wedding and funeral fees and fees for services, I can find no reference anywhere to recording fees.
Any advice would be appreciated greatly.
Thank you.
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Having not been back to Shrewsbury for several months I can only add that on my most recent visit suggested fundraising was actively happening in anticipation of a major restoration once funds permitted, and I spotted that a new blower had recently been fitted.
Then this is indeed good news. Let us hope that this project is carried to completion.
Thank you for this, Contrabombarde. Any further news regarding this would be much appreciated.
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My family and I are planning a short visit to Edinburgh early next year - as we are all going 'organ business' will need to be kept to a minimum and introduced into my part of the itinerary at least with stealth for fear of all kinds of retributions from my wife and two teenage daughters! Can anyone recommend just one instrument to try and get a look at keeping in mind that I am unlikely to be up there again for a while.
Thanks in anticipation!
A
You could try the FHW/H&H instrument in Saint Mary's Cathedral: http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=D07927
On recordings, I have found the Rieger in Saint Giles' Cathedral http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=D02680 to be unsatisfying. However, if you do not fancy the look of the more Romantic instrument above, you could check it out and see what you think in the building. I must admit that I dislike the look of it, with its very red, pointy case.
If you want something a bit off-beat, how about Greyfriars Kirk http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N09208 - complete with its 32ft. 'Rumble' on the Pedal Organ (perhaps a very 'honest' description).
However, if you wish for something new - and by one of our lesser-known builders (now retired), there is the Metropolitan Cathedral of Saint Mary: http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=E01163 , with its quasi-French terraced 'amphitheatre' console.
Then there is the large four-clavier Romantic* instrument in the McEwan Hall, University of Edinburgh: http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N11935
I am not sure about the former Willis organ in the Church of Saint John the Evangelist, Princes Street http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=A00947 . Prior to 1974, it was a large example of the work of Rushworth & Dreaper - at a time when they were producing some really good Romantic instruments. The quality of the voicing would almost certainly have been excellent. However, it has since undergone extensive alterations by two different firms, and is presently in a state of limbo. There is an expressed desire to return this instrument to closer to its Father Willis 'roots'. However, exactly what is proposed is not made clear.As built by FHW, it was around half the size of the R&D instrument - and tonally, probably worlds apart. However, as rebuilt by Goldsmith (in 1974), the stop-list was rather different from either - and again, the instrument was enlarged. Further restorative work was undertaken by Geoffrey Coffin (Principal Pipe Organs) in 2009, which included the removal of some unspecified ranks. However, my guess is that this instrument is currently not particularly representative of any one firm. Naturally this does not preclude it being a good instrument; but if you only have limited time, I hesitate to recommend it.
And a wildcard? this one: http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=R01696 Or you might wish to look at the following information on this instrument: http://holyrude.org/organ_guide.htm
Now, if you decide on this instrument as the only one, be warned - it is approximately thirty-five miles north-west of Edinburgh. Therefore, you will need either to have taken your wife out for a romantic dinner for two here; http://www.thestockbridgerestaurant.co.uk/ or tell her that you have just discovered that a dearly loved elderly maiden aunt is at death's door in a nursing home in Glasgow,§ and you simply have to visit her this one last time. Alternatively, you could drug your wife, leave her asleep in your hotel room - and drive really quickly to Stirling. As far as your daughters are concerned - just tell them that One Direction are performing live here: http://www.murrayfieldexperience.com/ - or buy a larger bottle of chloroform.
I have no idea how you could even begin to explain this precipitate course of action on your return. I suspect that flowers and a large box of Thorntons' best would not even begin to cut it.
However, as long as you can ascertain that this instrument is currently maintained in good playing order - hell, I think that it is well worth the risk....
* Notwithstanding the three mutations on the Choir Organ.
§ Under no circumstances should you tell her that the nursing home is located in Stirling - if she wakes up and follows you there, she may learn of the organ in the Church of the Holy Rude - in which case, you are undone.
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It would be wonderful if someone were to set up a website dedicated to music in 'small' churches. How to make the best of a small choir, how to make the best of a small organ, how to show that there's no rocket science about doing Anglican chant, etc. I reckon that any choir should be able to make a contribution to every service, apart from leading the hymns (if that's all they do, they would be more use planted at strategic places among the rest of the congregation). There's so much simple music around, without descending into tackiness (as AJJ remarks).
It helps if churches still use the BCP. There's no doubt that it is far more music-friendly than the vast array of alternatives.
Indeed - although I wonder if a choir might not be less effective if they dispersed themselves within the congregation. If they simply sang in unison this might work - as long as the singers possessed sufficient confidence (and competence) to lead those around them. However, if there were to be an attempt to sing in harmony to any degree, it might be better to place them together, but seated as near to the majority of the congregation (and the organ, if present) as possible.
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... Please would provide examples that illustrate your point please? I can't find any instances of Hill organs of this size built between 1895 and 1914 that have 4ft pedal stops. Even the new 1909 Hill Organ of Selby Abbey (47/IVP) doesn't have any 4ft Pedal stops. The only examples with 4ft pedal stops I could find were Bangor Cathedral and Kings College Cambridge, both of which are considerably larger and rebuilds. Hill very, very rarely used the nomenclature "Octave" and "Superoctave", if ever - his typical nomenclature was the traditional English "Principal" and "Fifteenth". ...
I had forgotten to answer this. I hope that board members will not mind if I do so now, since I had promised that I would.
In fact, on his Pedal organs, Hill did use the nomenclature 'Octave' - I found a fair number of examples of this. It also appears that there are plenty of instances in which Hill named a Pedal 8ft, metal stop 'Violoncello'.
In addition, the Pedal Organ on the instrument in the Chapel of Saint John's College, Cambridge (Hill, 1839, 1868, 1889 and Norman & Beard, 1902) possessed a Principal, Fifteenth and a Mixture III (which may have contained a tierce). This organ was not that much larger that the instrument which was specified for Shrewsbury Abbey. For the record, I think that it is unlikely that Norman & Beard added this Pedal upper-work. However, it was retained in their rebuild of 1902, so I think that it would be justifiable to include this organ as an example.
There is also the church of Saint Andrew, in Aldershot, which, at the time of the 1897 rebuild by Hill, both a Principal and a wooden Violoncello on the Pedal Organ (The Fifteenth was added in 1984, by H&H).
It appears that the names 'Octave', 'Principal' and 'Violoncello' are fairly evenly distributed in organs by Hill; it is certainly not correct to say that the name 'Octave' was used 'very, very rarely' in instruments by Hill, which fall between the narrow confines of your defined parameters. I am not even sure why you chose these dates.§ The organ of Shrewsbury Abbey was new (except for the re-use of some pipe-work from the former organ) in 1911. This was the first and only recorded time which Wm. Hill & Son worked on this instrument. For that matter, some of the additions discussed may be the work of a firm other than Hill, Norman & Beard. The NPOR twice gives dates of work undertaken by 'unknown' firms: in 1927 and 1945.
In any case, this is all just splitting hairs. There is sufficient precedent to allow the addition of a Pedal stop of metal, labelled either 'Principal' or 'Violoncello' - and even a 4ft. stop of metal*. (For the record, the largest of the 8ft. Pedal flues at Shrewsbury Abbey is labelled 'Octave' - and has been so since 1911.)
However, since this thread has gone rather quiet in the intervening period, it does seem as if this instrument is unlikely to receive a thorough restoration (with or without some attempt at completing the tonal scheme) in the near future - which is a pity.
§ Thomas Hill died in 1893 (and the firm then continued under the direction of his son, Arthur for a few years). The amalgamation with Norman & Beard did not take place, as far as I know, until 1916 - initially trading under the name 'William Hill & Son & Norman & Beard.'
* Having been at one time Organist and Choirmaster at Shrewsbury Abbey, and having also had the pleasure of playing the fine Hill/Compton instrument in Bangor Cathedral, I would suggest that this is a moot point. Shrewsbury Abbey possesses a somewhat greater cubic capacity than that at Bangor Cathedral - which is really a 'parish church' cathedral. It would be interesting to be able to swap these instruments around, and hear them both in their new environments. It might be that each would suit their new surroundings better than they do at present. (When I played the organ of Bangor Cathedral, it was some years prior to the recent rebuild and re-ordering by David Wells. At that time, this large four-clavier organ made its presence known very clearly in the Choir and at the console. However, the projection down the Nave was rather less effective.)
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... The organ is at the East end, and the abbey floor slopes slightly up from west to east. In addition the organ was raised many years ago about four feet off the ground. ...
I have only just noticed this.
In the interest of accuracy, it is in fact situated in the North Transept* - and raised a few feet from pavement level.
*At Shrewsbury Abbey, the transepts are quite shallow, not extending past the outer walls of the Nave aisles.
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Where there is excellence in worship - dignity and order without being too stuffy, fine liturgy, preaching, interceding, music (both played and sung, choral and congregational) all properly co-ordinated by a strong team with good leadership then a church will flourish and it will attract young people. In those circumstances money will be found for necessary work on the organ and, indeed, for anything else. In those circumstances there will also be good, co-ordinated outreach, mission and social care. Places like that do exist and they do flourish. I've not been there, either to look around or attend a Sunday service, for about 30 yeas but I expect the church where pcnd5584 is organist probably falls into that category.
In other situations you frankly might just as well sit at home on Sunday morning and read the Telegraph. In those places the future of organs is utterly dire. I know when to admit defeat!
Malcolm
Indeed it is - and I consider myself fortunate not only to be organist of such a church (with an instrument which I adore), but to have an excellent rector, who not only supports the music, recognising its important place in worship, but who is also an exemplary colleague with whom to work. †
I note with interest your comment regarding a church attracting young people by striving to do what it does well - and not necessarily by having a rock band or 'worship group' (I have an intense dislike for this term and its perceived negative implications), or 'lively' worship. I read an article in the Church Times some months ago regarding a survey which sought to establish the present state of church congregations. It examined several different types of church - and the style of worship to be found in each. The result was interesting; it was not 'house' churches nor charismatic-style places of worship which showed the greatest increase in numbers of regular worshippers - it was our cathedrals, or a number of them which recorded the largest gain in this area. The survey noted further that this included, in many cases, quite a number of younger people (I think the age suggested was those under thirty-five years of age). As far as I can recall, the conclusion was that the increase in regular attendance was due largely to the high quality of the worship - which included both the sung and the spoken word - and in the attention to detail.
Before anyone thinks that I am deriding the styles of worship which I listed above - I am not; at least not without due cause. However, I do have some considerable experience of both types - and found them lacking in many respects - and certainly not more 'worthy' - for I was often given the clear impression that those in this type of church regarded themselves as having 'discovered' the 'true' worship - and that all others were to be pitied.§ For that matter, there were also several serious spiritual and practical problems in the churches (and house fellowships) of this type which I attended over several years. In two cases (one quite well-known), this resulted in a division of the congregation - which, in one case, caused much bitterness and hurt - I doubt that this state of affairs brought much glory to God.. *
† Yes, I do wish to have my contract renewed - but my words are meant sincerely.
§ I have encountered this unfortunate attitude in several churches of this type (there is, in fact, one less than half a mile from where I sit typing this). Yet, I have never - ever - met such a response in any of the cathedrals or churches in which I have either played for services or attended regularly, either as organist or simply as a worshipper.
* I attended these churches between the ages of seventeen and around twenty-four, so please do not think that I am merely an 'old fogy' whingeing on about 'young people'....
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Aubertin at Vichy – that 16-foot Principal
in Nuts and bolts
Posted · Report reply
Forgive me - but do you mean the lowest six notes?
In addition, do you mean that there is a stopped 16ft. sounding for the lowest six notes - but with a 10 2/3ft. quint in addition? In which case, I wonder why. Would not a stopped 16ft. rank be better, if there was insufficient room in the case for a full length metal bass? Why the 'fake' 32ft. effect, when all that is needed is to complete the compass of the 16ft. rank? I could understand an quiet, slightly stringy 8ft. metal 'helper' for the lowest six notes, but I would not wish for a 16ft. metal stop suddenly to become an acoustic 32ft. effect for the lowest six notes.