pcnd5584
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Posts posted by pcnd5584
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Don't panic! Rushworth's corrected the pitch to A440 in 1969. Interesting that George Guest said it was nerly a semitone sharp, but John Belcher ('The Organs of Chester Cathedral' 1970) uses the term 'slghtly sharp'.
Ah, thank you, David - that will save some practice-time, then.
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Getting there - thank you.
However, I am still hoping to find an earlier example, if possible.
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This is all very interesting. I enjoy deviations from topic and am a master deviant myself(!)
This sounds like Bournemouth Town Council.
There used to be the 'Upper Pleasure Gardens' and the 'Lower Pleasure Gardens' (complete with signage to match) - until some concerned council member decided that the inclusion of the word 'pleasure' might encourage undesirable activity, and so the signs were re-made.
With regard to pitch - I am not sure. However, I do have to play for a visiting choir at Chester this August. I wonder if I shall be expected to transpose psalms, canticles, etc, down a semitone, too?
Perhaps I had better contact the music staff and check....
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Yes, thank you. I had not taken that in because I don't post very often so seldom use the other options.
It seems you have to use BBCode Mode to enter the text, then click the icon again to get the other options back.
Ah - of course. Now why did I not think of that....?
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It is still possible:
But it doesn't seem so easy.
If you click the "Quote" button, in the top left hand corner below "Reply to this topic" is a small square icon which, if you hover over it, says "BBCode Mode." If you click on that the various tags appear. It's then a matter of copying and editing, and typing in your own comments in between.
Thank you
It doesn't seem quite so straightforward as before though. I used the "More Reply Options" to open the enhanced editor to practise with. Perhaps someone else knows a better way?
Best,
J.
This does seem to work - although it also renders the full edit options unusable.
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Hamptworth Lodge: New organ built to the order (and Specification) of Mr. H.C. Moffatt 1926
Great: Open Diapason 8; Claribel Flute 8; Stopped Diapason 8; Harmonic Flute 4
Swell: Claribel Flute 8; Salicional 8; Vox Angelica 8; Gemshorn 4; Oboe 8
Choir: Dulciana 8; Lieblich Gedackt 8; Lieblich Flute 4; Clarinet 8 (Enclosed)
Pedal: Open Diapason 16; Bourdon 16; Flute 8
The firm looked after the organ until 1934, then nothing until the 1950s when a 'suggestion' was made by HW3 to revise the specification (though there is nothing further to suggestthat this was ever done, before the organ was first offered for sale - after Mr. Moffatt's death presumably) in 1958. The vendor, presumably Mr. Moffatt's son, believed the instrument to have pipes made of 'silver' and it was he who determined that the organ must have been a 'sister' organ to Salisbury as his Father "had paid for the restoration of the Salisbury Cathedral Organ". Mr. Willis wrote to him to tell him that it was a common misconception that there was any silver content in organ pipe metal and that although his father had been a great friend of Sir Walter Alcock, it was possibly unlikely that he had actually paid the entire cost of the Salisbury work. He also told him that he would be unlikely to receive the £3000 which he was demanding as the sale price of the organ and that £1000 would be more reasonable. The organ was obviously not sold!
The tonal revision suggested by HW3 was:
Great: Open Diapason 8; Stopped Diapason 8; Principal 4; Fifteenth 2
Swell: Claribel Flute 8; Salicional 8; Vox Angelica 8; Gemshorn 4; Mixture 15.19.22
Choir/Pos: Lieblich Gedackt 8; Dulciana 8; Nason Flute 4; Cornet 12.15.17
Ped: As above.
Electro-pneumatic action - could be Pitman, but not sure and nothing in the file to say so (though we have photographs, and the the interior of the console includes views of 'Skinner' switches which the firm did use commonly thjough not exclusively with Pitman actions. There are notes of certain action faults in the tuners reports which our Foreman tells me indicates that the entire organ is wired on the Willis 'Grid' system. The organ fell out of use in the 1940s when the local electricity supply was changed from D.C. to A.C. and it isn't clear that the motor modifications were ever carried out, so in fact, the organ may have been without wind for a VERY long time! Our last contact with the place was in 1967, nothing since.
The file and details are available to anyone who wishes to put together a proper entry for the NPOR.
DW
David - thank you for the time and trouble you took with this enquiry. The details above are interesting - and much appreciated.
However, as another poster has already observed, the claim that the instrument was 'the twin of that in Salisbury Cathedral', is somewhat disingenuous.
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A friend at Bristol University had been a Coventry chorister and he maintained that the Larigot had always been there, but I'm not sure that his memory wasn't playing tricks, even at that short distance of time.No - this is incorrect. This rank was definitely not present prior to 1987.
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The old St. Luke's organ had originally been a large (for the time - 1825) three manual in the 'insular' style with much duplication (three Opens on the Great, two Stopped Diapasons, two Principals, two Fifteenths; two Opens, two Dulcianas and two Principals in the Swell), which Gray bought from the estate of Nicholls, the original builder and sold on to the church.
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=R01420
It was subsequently rebuilt more than once by Henry Jones, ending up as a substantial affair with 39 speaking stops, tracker action, flat stop jambs and one or two unusual touches such as a 1' Piccolo on the Great.
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N18008
Henry Jones & Sons were respectable builders, and their tracker actions were very well made. Many small to medium jobs are still to be found in village churches, giving no trouble and making good music. I would guess that today we would treasure such an instrument and have it carefully restored. Jones's action would have come up very nicely.
One would not expect, however, that John Ireland would have been particularly enamoured of the instrument. It was outdated even at the time of its last rebuild in 1894, ten years before he was appointed. More important, perhaps, would be the fact that it was (and is) in the west gallery, with the choir in the chancel. Co-ordination would have been very difficult. Harrisons' built a small organ to Ireland's design at the east end of the south gallery in 1907, probably in the expectation of getting a major rebuild of the big organ.
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N18009
Although the pipes of the Compton are still at the west end in the old case, the console is near where the little Harrison stood (the latter went to a church in Nottingham, where it still is), so at least the organist and the choir were close to each other. It is always over-optimistic to hope that such a set-up will be satisfactory (and another small organ stood near the choir for a few years from 1989), but it would have been seen as an improvement in 1932.
The Compton is justly famed. It is a fine job and an important example of the firm's work, although as Ian Bell pointed out, it is not as well-balanced as Downside. At the time, it must have felt like rocket science, with its luminous stop touches and lavish tonal scheme. I agree with pcnd that the luminous stops are not as easy to use as draw-stops. I play a Rogers toaster several times a week at the local Anglican seminary which is so equipped and I can testify that they are not as easy to register as either draw-stops or stop-keys.
Charles Cleall, onetime organist at St. Luke's, described the organ to me as 'almost a monster' - this was nearly thirty years ago when he was music inspector for schools in the North of Scotland and I was teaching in order to afford to be organist of St. Magnus Cathedral. I can see what he was getting at, but organs of that period were not as well thought-of then as they are now.
pcnd mentions the Sub Octave Reeds couplers at Belfast Cathedral. This was indeed present in the original instrument and completed the reed chorus on the Great, but disappeared when the organ was rebuilt in 1969. I had it (and the Solo Octave, Sub and Unison Off) reinstated in 2000, which not only improved the versatility of the instrument considerably but restored the original concept of the scheme. Colchester Town Hall (Norman & Beard) also has Sub Octave Reed couplers on both Great and Swell, to its great advantage.
David, thank you for this - some really interesting things, here.
With the new layout, I have no idea how to split posts when quoting - the old
tags have vanished.... so, how do I do this, please?With regard to the console at Saint Luke's, Chelsea. In fact, there are two consoles. There is a small two-clavier console, situated at floor level, amongst the north choir stalls, and the main (luminous light-touch) console - which I note has been moved. Formerly, it was situated in the south gallery, roughly level with the choir stalls and with the player facing west. However, when I visited the church in December 2011, I saw that it had been moved to the west end of the north gallery - as far as I can recall, with the player facing north - somewhat nearer the organ - and rather distant from the choir stalls. Even with CCTV and monitor speakers, I am not sure what advantage this position has over the former site.
I recall David's comment regarding the re-introduction of the Great Reeds Sub Octave coupler at Belfast. Presumably, the fact that it was removed (for a few years) in 1969, was symptomatic of how organ design was viewed in those days. Largely gone were Pedal quints and acoustic basses - and often, octave couplers (c.f. Coventry cathedral: as built, this possessed only a Swell Octave, the Swell Sub Octave, Unison Off, Solo Solo Octave, Sub Octave and Unison Off, together with the Choir Larigot, were added in 1997).*
* In fact, the NPOR gives that date of the addition of the Choir Larigot as both 1987 (in the body of the stop-list) and 2000 (at the top, in the précis of the work carried out) - which is incorrect. I recall the review of a CD (or perhaps an LP), which was recorded at Coventry around 1987. During this review Paul Hale (?) said something to the effect of '...the Coventry organ has been augmented with the addition of a much-desired Larigot on the Choir Organ and (whisper it), some Octave couplers on the Solo Organ.'
IN fact, there was originally to have been a Larigot on the Choir (at any rate, after the tedious first specification had been put out of the picture - this would have been an entirely conventional Romantic H&H scheme). However, this was substituted for a Fifteenth - or possibly the Block Flute. In this, the NPOR has again been provided with inaccurate information. The Block Flute was not 'added' (n.d.); it was present at the completion of the instrument, in 1963.
However, there is one change I wish had never taken place - the revoicing of the Solo Orchestral Trumpet and Orchestral Clarion, by David Wells, in 2000. Whist the revoicing has been well done, the stops have lost their fire and éclat - and now sound as if they are trying to be thin Tuba ranks. This is totally out of character with the rest of the instrument and I would like to see this reversed.
In fairness, the 8ft. Orchestral Trumpet had been revoiced previously - around the time of the death of David Lepine. It was desired to make a memorial to him, as the cathedral's first director of music. A Tuba was suggested, but wise counsel suggested that this would be at odds with the tonal 'picture' of the rest of the organ. So, as a compromise, the Orchestral Trumpet was made slightly 'fatter', by Harrisons. However, it still retained its fire and thrilling brightness.
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Well, electric action, totally enclosed, 97 stops from 28 ranks, and sustainers would have made it more similar to a Cinema Organ than to most church or cathedral organs at the time.
It would be hard to find an example of a rebuild or new installation where the incumbent organist described the previous state of the organ as beautifully designed, well-built and in perfect condition.
Electric action? Not really; by 1932, HWIII had been using electric action as standard for several years. In any case, FHW used it at Canterbury Cathedral in 1886 - and of course, Hope-Jones built his new organ for Worcester cathedral in 1896, using his own form of electric action*. At Chelsea, the total enclosure may have struck warning bells with a few organists - but in practice, with the boxes open, it was (as was often the case with John Compton's cleverly designed instruments) virtually impossible to tell that the G.O. was enclosed. The extension principle was becoming more common at this time - with the ascendancy of Compton's firm. The sustainers were probably a red herring - a number of conventional organs had a few unusual accessories, around this time. To take one almost exactly contemporary example: Hereford Cathedral (as rebuilt and enlarged by HWIII, in 1933). At the completion of the rebuild, this instrument boasted a G.O. Sub Octave coupler (probably unique in an English cathedral organ at this time ϯ) and - even more of a rarity - a 'Pedal in Sub Octaves' coupler - about as common as a Norwegian-speaking dog. It could also be said that HWIII's employment of rocking-tablets for couplers as standard on larger consoles (and HN&B's stop-tab consoles) had more in common with cinema organs, than did the luminous light-touch console at Saint Luke's, Chelsea.
I still wonder if in fact Ireland was thinking of something more akin to a Wurlitzer. In any case, he missed a great opportunity. Whilst I should always choose a good straight instrument over one built on the extension principle - however well-constructed and voiced, I have played the Chelsea organ (for service work), and found it to be versatile, thrilling - and entirely musical. Although, in fairness, it should be said that I did not like the light-touches. Whilst I am aware of claims that several stops may be manipulated at ease, in one movement, I have never really needed to do this by hand - this is what pistons are for. In any case, it is perfectly possible to hand-register on quite large instruments which possess drawstops only. Some years ago, I was called in to play for Sunday services at Christchurch Priory at short notice, since the organist for that day's visiting choir was indisposed. When I arrived, I discovered that the organ had a fault. Apparently, the day before, the entire piston action had been knocked out inadvertently whilst the organ was undergoing maintenance. So, I had no choice but to hand-register everything. Of course it helped that I knew the organ (this was, incidentally, in the days of the old 105-stop toaster). However, with fare such as Britten's setting of the Jubliate and other such items, my task was not an easy one. I doubt that I would have found it any less arduous had the stops been controlled by Compton's light-touches.
Your second statement - granted. However, the impression which I gain from his writings in The Organ (and elsewhere), J. Stuart Archer certainly knew his stuff and was apparently quite honest in his descriptions - even if he did look seriously creepy.
* However, I am sure that you are well aware of this, David.
ϯ Saint Anne's Cathedral, Belfast had a Sub Octave coupler on the G.O. as early as 1907 - but, as you know, it acted only on the reed chest.
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I note that, although NPOR says the organ has been out of action for several years because of blower problems, the Hamptworth Lodge website (in the section offering it as a wedding venue) refers to the " magnificent organ – the twin of that in Salisbury Cathedral".
http://www.hamptworthestate.co.uk/wedding/venue-salisbury-wiltshire
The twin part at least has to be wishful thinking - since apparently it has only three claviers. From the photograph, I would also speculate that it does not possess two full-length 32ft. Pedal ranks, either.
Perhaps DW can shed some light on this instrument?
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The overhaul has now been completed.
Excellent. Thank you.
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Apparently Ireland was invited back to play the Compton organ some years later but declined saying "No thank you, I don't play Cinema organs"
Which is odd, since, aside from some carefully thought-out extension, this clever instrument has nothing whatsoever in common with any cinema organ.
In any case, according to J. Stuart Archer, the previous instrument was a wretched affair, incomplete and in a fairly parlous state by the time that John Compton was called in.
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... I enquired further of Lucasorg as to whether there were any other 'effects' and whether they were suitable for sharing; there were and they weren't. ...
Gah - this is a bit like a stripper finally discarding her last piece of clothing - only for you to realise that she is still sporting an entirely opaque body-stocking.
If you are unable to share further juicy stories regarding this (or any other) organist - please - don't allude to them.
Or at least offer the possibility of the entire active board membership drowning you in a deluge of PMs, by which means you COULD spill the goods....
...privately.
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BBC South West News are always short of good stories.
Yes - although they were strangely silent on the occasion when Hugh Scully (anchorman) made an embarrassing gaffe regarding Fanny Craddock and her ring doughnuts, on her weekly cookery slot during Spotlight Southwest - the regional news programme.
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Today's Times carried an obituary for Mike Shields. In the article's title he is described as an organist and choir master, but the article didn't mention anything else of his musical life. Did anyone know or work with him?
' "Professional, Practical, Polymath, Poet” was the poet James Kirkup’s description of Mike Shields. Engineer and scientist, editor, translator and poet, organist and choirmaster, singer and guitarist, Shields seemed to be able to turn his hand to anything....' [quoted from the article in The Times.]
Given this information, it could be that the organist and choirmaster part was something of a hobby - and perhaps took place in a smaller or lesser-known church. Google gives this site: https://www.swas.polito.it/services/Rassegna_Stampa/dett.asp?id=4028-174298928 as having further information.
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I thought this sort of restyling was fairly normal these days, though with some flexibility in terminology. As you will know, Exeter adopted the same distinction as your church until Paul Morgan retired, but the job description for his successor was widened and the post retitled Assistant Director of Music.
Indeed.
I had actually requested the title of 'Organiste Titulaire' ( a precedent was set many years ago, in an English cathedral), but my colleague is not a Francophile and so I had to make do with 'Organist'.
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Post deleted - duplicate.
(Initially, the reply was inseparable from the quote = teething troubles after the re-boot?)
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This isn't exactly new - it's mentioned in both Grove and the DNB - but it's a rare chance to see it.
Not quite, Vox. As far as I can recall, there was on display (since the 1965) rebuild) a photograph of this graffito in a small wooden frame, mounted adjacent to the old piston setter-board cupboards on the south side of the loft.
However, it is interesting to see the base of the case completely empty. It would be interesting to have some details of the proposed re-distribution, since given the size of the case (and the fact that it 'speaks' in three directions), there is a limit on the available permutations of the departments. does anyone have any further information on this point, please?
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It seems to be common, if not compulsory, that Choir Masters and Directors of Music retain the title of Organist, while their organists have to make do with being Assistant Organists.
Why is that?
When a brilliant Production Director is promoted to Managing Director they don't cling to their former title and oblige the new Production Director to be called Assistant Production Director. I assume, therefore, that there is some profoundly important reason why Conductors are called Organists and Organists are called Assistant (or, worse, Sub) Organists, of which I am ignorant.
I expect enlightenment will be swift (and hope it will not be too painful).
Best wishes
J
About two years ago, my colleague - formerly 'Organist and Master of the Choristers' - re-styled himself (and subsequently has his contract amended) 'Director of Music'. The next logical step was that I also had my title changed from 'Sub Organist' to 'Organist'. These descriptions are more accurate in terms of our roles.
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A colleague has alerted me to the fact that the organ in the Great Hall at Wyggeston & Queen Elizabeth I College - formerly Wyggeston Boys' School (Leicester) is in urgent need of a new home. It is a two manual Walker organ dating from 1932 The NPOR link is here: http://npor.emma.cam...ec_index=D07877
The balcony on which it stands is to be re-developed and the organ will be disposed of, if no offer of removal to a new home is forthcoming. If anyone knows of a church (or school, etc) requiring an instrument of this size and design, please contact me by PM, and I can put you in touch with someone who used to play it and who has drawn this to my attention.
Thank you.
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Oh dear, I seem to have killed this one stone dead. No other views?
I agree with you, Vox - although due to your observation regarding 4ft. stops getting mixed-up with the upper parts, I prefer it with a clean 8ft. Trompete. Here:
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I have just discovered that my Swell Unison Off 'reads through' the Swell to Pedal. I was attempting a different - and quieter - type of full Swell, and was using the Sub Octave and Unison Off, only to discover that, in the lowest octave of the pedalboard, nothing whatsoever happened. I was aware that the Swell Sub Octave 'read through' Swell to Pedal (obviously with nothing happening for the lowest octave), but this is the first time I have discovered this anomaly.
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Okay - here is another:
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Many thanks to all who contributed to this discussion.
The collective wisdom of this Board prevailed, and the idea as originally conceived was not pursued.
However, in advance of the upcoming Christian Resources Exhibition, a survey was undertaken, the results of which are reported here:
Whilst perhaps one could appreciate those who were frustrated, there are still better ways of dealing with such a situation.
I suggest that this type of behaviour can only do harm - and weaken the moral strength of those who are trying to persevere against difficult circumstances. However, I am glad to hear that you did not succumb.
Ireland in A and St. Luke's, Chelsea
in Nuts and bolts
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Except that technically the organ of Chester Cathedral is not a 'Hill' organ. It was built by the local firm, Whiteley. if you compare the stop-lists, Hill did not change much in 1910. (Although I am not sure how extensive the alterations of 1895, by Gray & Davison were.) Hill provided a new console and removed some of the upper-work - which was probably more a reflection on organists' tastes at that time, than the builders' tonal policy.