pcnd5584
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Posts posted by pcnd5584
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In the UK, we have seen the strength of feelings aroused by the destruction of the old organ at Worcester Cathedral, yet what replaces it is a rather fine instrument tonally. The same was evident at Blackburn almost 40 years ago.PS: Could we avoid mentioning Worcester AGAIN? !!!!!!!
OK - after I write this.... Unless I am mis-reading this, you must have a high degree of clairvoyance! The old organ is still in situ and therefore we do not yet know whether or not the new instrument will be tonally excellent - this, of course, is rather subjective in any case.
The problem often lies, dare I say, with the incumbent organist(s), who, naturally enough, favour a particular kind of instrument. Unfortunately, when the instrument in their charge fails to meet their exacting criterior, not all are able to restrain themselves. Faced with glossy artist's impressions and sexy CAD print-ous, their eyes glaze over as they dream of ten-rank Fournitures, six ranks of Chamades and polished stop terraces. Is it any wonder that the wheezing old wreck skulking lugubriously in its Victorian dog-kennel fails to excite their senses?
A plea to all who may yet choose to travel down this pitted and hazardous road - new is not always best. All that glistens is not gold (sorry, JRRT) and not all that seems threadbare and ruined is beyond redemption.
Listen - truly listen with open ears and eyes! There may yet be a vestige of beauty beneath the veneer of decay.
Take heed not to rob us of our rich heritage - you may not like it but then, one day you will be gone. Who is to say that your successors will look at your actions with gratitude?
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As a sidebar to Pcnd's last contribution, I thought the 32ft pedal reed at Sheffield was there in 1981 when I saw the organ, but my memory may not be that good.Thank you - I was not sure either way!
It will be interesting to see what transpires. If the cathedral authorities do decide to dispense with the old instrument, I hope that it can be salvaged and go to a good home. Perhaps it can be used to replace a toaster somewhere....
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Whilst I am only in a position idly to speculate, it does seem that there might be a sense of the cathedral wishing to start afresh. This may, of course, include retaining some of the existing pipework (was the 32p reed ever added - or was it still prepared-for?) in any new instrument.
We shall have to wait and see if any news is forthcoming from the cathedral authorities.
I still quite like my scheme, though....
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Ideally, I would prefer both the 'Harmonics' and a Quint Mixture - that way one has authenticity and versatility. Westminster Abbey did both and Hereford did something slightly similar. However, these instruments are presumably somewhat larger, so there will always be some form of compromise.
I would still want to ask myself how often I would acutally use an 'Harmonics' stop. Authenticity must be balanced with practicality, surely - otherwise all that is achieved is to preserve an anachronism.
However, if everything else is largely as Arthur Harrison left it - including the family of trombi on the GO, then it may be best to re-instate it.
I do appreciate your dilemma, though!
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Yes, and note the old ASB (alternative service book) was never intended to replace the Common Prayer, it was to be an alternative. All of the "rubrics" of the BCP still stand, but many churches choose simply to ignore it. The language is considered too difficult, and lesser mortals not able to comprehend it. Hmm!!! A great loss. Even as a RC I saw the virtue in the language and logic of it all (except the bit about Popery.... ooh!! nasty!!) . As I say, a great loss. Where it is used, it remains quite wonderful.
I would agree with you, Richard.
However, it must not be overlooked that the ASB, amongst its many services, made provision for the Blessing of an Abbess - now you must admit that this is something which every self-respecting organist should have to hand....
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....Thus labelled it would seem unsaleable except for scrap or cannibalisation. Therefore, the removal of the old organ will contribute minimally to the cost of the new : it might even conceivably cost more to remove it than it is worth, and therefore add to the cost of the new instrument ! It does indeed seem strange that an organ from one of our most reputable builders should fail so catastrophically. Perhaps therefore it has not happened, and that the organ is not in fact in such a bad state as has been represented. One cannot imagine how the cathedral authorities could gain from this situation : it can only cost them money. One can only suggest that in the medical field a terminal prognosis often results in the request for a second opinion.Brian Childs
There was at some stage, a possibilty that the Sheffield organ was to go to Newquay Parish Church, in Cornwall, to replace their rather superb Nicholson/Roger Yates organ which was largely destroyed by fire. I am fairly certain that it was examined by an organ builder friend who is extremely competent. If it was such a wreck, I find it hard to imagine that he would have recommended that Newquay attempt to purchase the instrument. I wonder if it is possible that we have another 'Worcester' here?
Sorry - I promised not to mention that post again - I shall slap myself quite firmly....
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Perhaps they could do with an independent organ-consultant to offer advice, or am I missing something in the final equation?MM
Well, I am not convinced that this expedient was successful at Christchurch Priory! Months before the contract was signed, I sent, by request, an eight-page letter to the Organist and Master of the Choristers, detailing every area in which I felt that the proposed scheme was either inadequate or just plain wrong.
I did not mind that this document was subsequently sent to the consultant who, in turn, wrote a rather pompous and ill-considered reply! Particularly since most of the weaknesses which I highlighted have now been addressed by further costly alterations post-1999. Certainly, at the opening recital, the whole thing was distinctly underwhelming. Shortly after the rebuild was completed, I had to play the Saint-Saëns 'Organ' Symphony with a local student orchestra. The result at the time, was that the organ was largely inaudible during any passages at forte and above.
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Well, maybe. It's just I did not see that in Belgium ever.Back to the Tiger papers!
Pcnd, why so high-pitched a Pedal mixture? It's even higher than the Great's
Fourniture. (Aftertought: or do you mean it all an octave deeper?)
Why not 17-19-22 in place of 15-17-22 in the Swell? Would work better
with the reeds, I think.
I like the Solo, it's an interesting, concise scheme. But what do you mean with
"Tuba magna"? Cavaillé-Coll named that way a half-lenght 16' Bombarde -in the first octave- in order to find enough place for it in the box.
Best wishes,
Pierre
1) Pedal Mixture - but the pitches will of course, be 2p, 1 1/3p and 1p - effectively one octave lower than that on the GO. I believe that Mander's put such a Mixture on the Pedal Organ of St. Giles', Cripplegate - and very good it is, too!
(Many Pedal mixtures on English organs have, as their composition, 19, 22, 26, 29 - the pitches represented would, of course, be one octave lower than a similarly-composed mixture on the claviers.)2) Swell Mixture - no, I considered that. Apart from the fact that I dislike 17, 19, 22 mixtures on the claviers, the Swell 2p is a wide-scaled flute. It will therefore be necessary to bridge the gap between the 4p and the Sharp Mixture with a 15, 19, 22 Mixture. I think that whilst choruses in which the diapason pitches are separated by more than two octaves can sometimes be successful, this is usually more by luck than judgement.
3) Tuba Magna - well, I did borrow the name from C-C, although British builders were also using the name. My intention is that it should be a full but bright English Tuba - not a stop such as is found in sub-unison pitch on the Grand Choeur at N.-D. (I know that several sources list it as 'Tuba 16' - but then several sources also list the Positif fonds and 16p stops incorrectly. I am fairly certain that the stop-head is engraved 'Tuba Magna 16'.)
Interestingly, C-C often used basses acoustiques on his Récit sub-unison reeds. N.-D. had one until, I think, Cochereau's time - I cannot now recall when it was replaced with full-length pipes. As far as I know, Chartres Cathedral still has a half-length bass to the Récit Bombarde.
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Sorry, here's a question as a bit of an after thought. How on earth do you manage the registration changes in the first two "verses" of Master Tallis without general pistons. I've always found the required changes to the pedal registrations - at times 8' only, then 16', then back to 8', a nightmare without an assistant to change the stops.Of course with loads of generals, and a sequencer, as Gloucester now has, its a piece of cake.
It should be possible to acheive this without too much trouble. There are rests (and commas) marked before each change of registration and, given the sensitive and generous acoustic ambience of Gloucester, I suspect that Howells did not intend the performer to proceed immediately to the next bar. Rather, that one should allow the music to breathe. I think that the slower pieces by Howells are often played too quickly - there is then little sense of architecture, of the inexorable progession to the climax. Take the Psalm-Prelude No. 1, from Set Two - if this is played too quickly, I would argue that the passage(s) on the last two systems of the fifth page do not make sense. In my view, the glorious harmonies need time to register - any faster and, in an acoustic such as is found at Gloucester, the result will be muddled and unsatisfying.
On a related point - look at the St. Paul's Service - regard closely the harmonic changes. They are slower than several other settings - even King's and Gloucester. Howells deliberately took account of the extremely long decay at St. Paul's and therefore wrote a setting in which this important facet was not merely accommodated but actually enhanced the pace of the climaxes.
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He is spot on! One of the reasons why I love sitting in the Abbey choir for Evensong is that the Abbey organists are not afraid to pull the stops out when accompanying the Choir. The organ becomes an active participant, rather than trying to do an impression of a retiring wallflower, as so often happens.Jeremy Jones
London
Thank you!
I do try to be a sensitive accompanist but I also get irritated with people (especially singers) who seem to think that the organ should always be subservient to the voices - this is neither correct or reasonable! Occasionally, the interest or excitement in a work really does transfer to the organ part - for example, many of the settings of the evening canticles by Howells. It is at such times that the pleasure of the listener can be heightened (not in the Meg Ryan sense) by the imaginative and even bold use of an instrument's resources.
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pcnd hello! See, I can write down long web addresses after lots of Stella!I will get down to hear yours eventually.
Was a bit annoyed I missed Oxford, it's always a laugh. Even if the organ isn't one of my favourites......
Did you take any music this year?
Which long addresses - I see no addresses....?
Yes, it was fun - hot as usual. In case you are wondering, of course I used the Bombarde division and, no - I did not take any music - all the voluntaries were improvised, as usual....
Incidentally, Magna - my telephone is not currently malfunctioning....feel free to test it some time....!
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Mmmm....well, providing that you are wearing an hard hat, I suppose that it is OK.
But I cannot help wondering what you would do if, one day, Prof T. (or you) added so many big reeds that there arose some confusion in the graveyard outside....
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I know, I know, organists always play too loud! But how on earth are the rest of us supposed to rein in our instincts to 'pull all the stops out' when you have those who should be setting a good example - Prof Tracey at Liverpool and John Scott at St Paul's before he left for NY, to name just two - clearly demonstrating that when it comes to the tutti, you can never draw enough stops.But I am on a dicey wicket from which to admonish others. For in my distant schooldays at morning chapel I seem to recall we used to take great glee in timing Franck's Piece Heroique so that the last page (with Tubas and anything else that might increase the decibel count) would be played when everyone was in their seats and couldn't escape the aural battering, in particular the Headmaster who sat immediately below the organ!
Jeremy Jones
London
Well, I am probably guilty of something similar - but I like to think that I could exercise restraint if I were to be confronted with something the size of Liverpool.... I do quite often finish voluntaries with the tutti - including chamades - best not to be standing near those....
If it comes to that, I think that your comments are entirely appropriate - the Headmaster probably needed waking-up, in any case!
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Thank you, Brian - an informative post. This makes a good deal of sense. I had forgotten most of the details regarding the instrument's pedigree - or lack of one!
Ah well - now to return to that proposed scheme....
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I'd forgotten about St John's where he said that he was complemented by someone on the piece of music he played as a voluntary, but that he had only improvised it.(I think his views on organs in general mirrored his attachment to the BCP and the AV)
Apparently he improvised virtually all of his voluntaries whilst at St. John's - dare I wonder if they all sounded similar?
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Not sure about two things there - 1) did he play the organ after about 1916 when he was 'retired' from Salisbury due to ill health and 2) I'm not sure that he really noticed the organ reform movement that much? (I don't think he liked the RFH organ very much, but that's hardly a surprise. He wrote the Partita for a first performance there but it's not his best music, nor does it look like it was written with that kind of organ in mind)Well, only, as far as I know, at St. John's College, Cambridge, where, for a time during WWII he was Acting Organist. I would be interested to read of anyone knowing whether or not he played anywhere else.
No - if he did not like the Goucester organ as re-designed by RD, I doubt that he liked the RFH H&H/Downes either!
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Before we go to the "paper tigers", I would just like to know how a Noel Manderorgan can be worn out after 39 years.
It sounds like replacing a two years old Mercedes because the tyres are worn,
or the ashbox full.
Best wishes,
Pierre
God - I hope that we are not proposing to contact David Niven ('on the other side') in order to design this organ....
Seriously, I have wondered the same thing. Even if there were mechanical failure, this can be rectified without recourse to scrapping the entire instrument.
I cannot immediately recall who is Titulaire there, at present. I know that Paul Brough moved on a few years ago. It might be best to ascertain whether or not the organ did in fact suffer a catastrophic break-down.
There does seen currently to be a trend of staring afresh, rather than replacing worn-out parts. Perhaps the cathedral authorities wish to take ths course of action. Certainly the old organ sounded OK to me on a recording (featuring Graham Matthews) made a few years ago.
Anyone else have any ideas?
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Thank you - I hope that you enjoy the rest of your summer break!
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He's back next term, allegedly.You don't need an introduction ... we aren't snooty here!
Really - that would be wonderful! May I contact you regarding this matter at your convenience, please?
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Ha! Hope he has a hat....
Oh well - there go my chances of an introduction in order for me to petition you to allow me to play the wonderful instrument in your cathedral....
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Good grief! What on earth is he doing there?!!
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Not at all - I quite understand!
A few years ago, I did spend some time trying (in vain) to make my 'own' church instrument sound like a vintage Harrison! Now, I just try to make it sound like N.-D. (1970s vintage) - but without the 32p!
By the way, may I please trouble you to pass on my regards to Rev. Stephen Lake? - I think that he is your Sub-Dean. I was his organist (with a colleague as choirmaster) at his previous church for a few years. I have, unfortunately, lost touch with him! Thank you!
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I really enjoyed reading your post, Mr. Lucas - thank you!
Ironically (with regard to the low esteem with which some members hold the Gloucester organ) the music of Howells may sound more clear on the present instrument in Gloucester Cathedral.
No - before people rush hot-foot to their computer keyboards to send off a stinging rebuke - (and get out little dolls and a box of pins) - I did not state that it would necessarily produce the expected timbres - just that it was likely to be less muddled!
By the way - any further news on the proposed additions to the H&H organ of St. Alban's Abbey?
Tournemire Orgue Mystique
in General discussion
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I only know the Triple Choral - I have a recording of the piece played at Orléans Cathedral - it sounds magnificent on the old C-C, there.
I would have thought that the superb C-C at S. Sernin would be very suitable. True, it is not well-supplied with mutations, but apart from that it has a rich tonal palette, etherial quiet effects of great beauty and a tutti général with the most thrilling éclat.