pcnd5584
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Posts posted by pcnd5584
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Well, I was thinking more of the out-of-character alterations to the Solo Organ, for example. Hill was not generally known for including Spitz-Principals, Blockflutes, mutations and a high-pitched Cymbal on his Solo divisions!
Then there is the Chimney Flute, Larigot and the two chorus mixtures in the Swell Organ - also not, I suspect, original Hill - mostly alterations from the 1970s - often a bad decade for enlightened organ restorations.
However, as you say, it is still a good instrument. Fernando Germani was quite fond of it too, I think!
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I think the problem with the Abbey Organ is getting the balance right. A simple test for anyone is to sit in the nave and you will see exactly what the problem is. On the date in question which was 2 Saturday's ago. a visiting Choir attempted to sing Harwood in Ab in addition to o how glorious ! If only the Organist used his ears ! The balance was not right and drown out the hand full of singers who's voices were not really prepared to matched the acoustics of the Abbey. From where I was at the back it was inaudibile and instead a full and ponderous heavy organ which was not the ideal thing. especially when leading the closing Hymn. If people don't sing the hymns remember it's something your doing !It would almost certainly have been one of the incumbent organists at the console, since organists with visiting choirs are not permitted to play. Therefore, the organist probably knew well the effect of the instrument.
I suspect that the key to the problem lies in where you sat. The organist was, I expect, registering to balance the choir as heard from the stalls - not halfway down the nave! Many organs would drown out a choir from such a vantage-point, particularly those where the organ is sited upon a (stone) pulpitum. This would have the effect of largely screening a listener in the nave from the sound of the choir.
Since in many cathedrals, the congregation for Evensong tends to sit in or near the choir-stalls, the organist has to balance the volume of the organ for this part of the building - listeners in the nave or even the transepts would almost certainly be given the impression that the organ was overwhelming the singers!
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Seriously, if you do make it to New York, the music staff at St Ignatius are usually very accommodating to people wishing to visit the organ.That is a refreshing attitude!
Actually, I was not entirely serious about the threat of a tsunami - I would like to visit the US. Perhaps I will start to save up for the air-fare. However, I think that I will have to content myself with a recording of Latry.
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Not to me! I would be interested to hear more.
Of course, I do know the wonderful Pierre Scyven organ at Antwerp Cathedral, having played it on a few occasions.
I have in my possession a book entitled [/i]West-Vlaamse Orgelklanken, of which you may know, or have a copy. Apart from stop-lists and historical detalis, there are many excellent quality photographs of the organs of Belgium. I would be particularly interested to know what the organ of Sint-Salvatore's Cathedral, Brugge, is like. The oak (?) case, now blackened with age, with its gilt pipes looks superb.
Any information will be gratefully received.
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I did not understand what the person was originally asking. Was he unfamiliar with that type of organ or have I missed the point?
I am tired - I did not have to play for Mass to-day - but it is hot here and I am fairly tired - I think that this is also excusable!
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Yes - my only reservation is that he changes the prescribed registrations - in one case, drastically. The Scherzo in the 2me Symphonie, is marked to be played with reeds 8p and 4p on GPR, with a similar sound on the Pedale, with all Tirasses. However, Pincemaille uses 8p and 2p flutes and basically misses the bright, commanding effect which would have been afforded by the reeds.
I have recently recorded the entire symphony (together with other repertoire) on my 'own' church instrument and I use the prescribed registration - I also managed to play it three seconds faster than Pincemaille!
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Yes - I would agree with Roffensis. The Selby Abbey organ always sounds good. Even after the regular tinkering with the mixtures - particularly on the GO and Solo organs. As for Robert Gower - in my view, he is an excellent exponent of the works of Whitlock.
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I found on one of my Parisian trips that the boxed set of Widor Symphonies (complete) played on 10 C - C organs, was nearly £10 cheaper that the UK. I have been stung once or twice on paying uk taxes on some US product thoughPeter
Would that be the version as played by Pierre Pincemaille, Titulaire at S. Denis? If so, I think that it is a stunning series - the organs sound excellent and his playing is almost always brilliant.
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PS,does anyone know what might be the definative Whitlock Sonata recording, I thought it might be the Robert Gower one recorded at Selby Abbey on the Abbacus label, or Graham Barbers Coventry one on LP
There is a recording of the sonata as played by John Scott, on the Hyperion label. However, the Gower recording is pretty good, I think.
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No problem!
It has to be said that we do get over-charged for our recorded music in the UK. In the US, things are a lot cheaper. In fact, even in France, the prices are less.
Ah well, as you say, better to be safe than sorry.
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Well, quite....
lmao
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Maybe we should all copy our Old recordings, and swap them with eachother using psysudo names so we can't get caught out, ONLY JOKING, got that from an 18 yearold who does a lot of pier to pier file sharing and has hundreds of low quality mp3's
I am glad that you are only joking - it is comparatively easy to trace assigned IP addresses - a pseudonym would be about as much use as a chocolate chastity belt.
Speaking as one who has played the organ on a few commercially-produced recordings, I would be distinctly annoyed if some misguided person were to copy it (using digital or analogue means) and subsequently post copies on the 'net.
Personally, I find it much easier to listen to any recording if I know that it was produced legally.
Incidentally, would that be Bournemouth to Boscombe piers? - or do you mean 'peer'....
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Brian, I agree with much that you say. You make some very sensible points.
As far as Liverpool is concerned - give me Nôtre-Dame as it was in the late 1970s any day!!
Your Hill sounds wonderful - where is it? (If I may ask.) I used to play a three-clavier Hill organ, still with some ranks prepared-for. It has a tubular pneumatic action dating from about 1907. It was wonderful - even in its incomplete state. No scream, no harshness, it just filled the building with the most glorious sound.
Now, I am going to put my hard hat on and wait for Richard to go on-line....
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Well, on another thread, someone said he did not knowwhat this kind of thing was.
Here is a link to an example:
http://www.orgelkunst.be/orgelbouwactualia...leLudgerus.html
Best wishes,
Pierre Lauwers
As in a genre of organ design - or a particular instrument? I am not sure I understand your original inference - sorry!
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M. Lauweres raises some interesting points.
Certainly, C-C used only the best materials. Secondly, his chests were not winded by means of 'Kopex', or any other flexible trunking!
With reference to the points raised by M. Lauwers - another reason that English organs generally possess such strong basses may be due to the acoustic absorption and lack of resonance in many churches in this country. This is usually manifest in the acoustic phenomenon known as 'standing waves' - wherein a given fundamental pitch can apparently be virtually inaudible in some parts of the building but seem two or three times its actual strength in others.
In addition, for his larger instruments, C-C often relied upon separate ranks of the 32p harmonic series (consisting of blandly-voiced pipes with virtually no harmonic development), in order to strengthen the fundamental. Such stops may be heard at Nôtre-Dame and Sacré-Coeur, for example and are pitched at 10 2/3, 6 2/5, 5 1/3 and 4 4/7 pieds. In fact, Vierne once commented that the [Grosse Tierce and] Septième on the Pedale at N.-D. was like 'a muster of double-basses'. Certainly at Nôtre-Dame, there is no sense whatsoever of inadequacy of the Pedal foundations, even though there is but a Contre-Basse and a Soubasse at 16p pitch.
Furthermore, the expedient of 'acoustic coupling' to which Pierre alludes, is well-known. It is not uncommon, I believe, for some (continental) builders to place a rank of 'helpers' (usually of octave pitch to the fundamental) next to a 16p rank, in order to amplify the unison. Although not quite the same, at Exeter Cathedral (at the time of the latest restoration) the GO Dulciana was removed in favour of a large Octave 4p, which helps to strengthen the unison ranks and carry more effectively down the nave. This was something which I had suggested to Paul Morgan several years ago - along with converting the Solo Viole Octaviante into a Violes Célestes to contrast with the very quiet Swell Angelica. It is always nice when things work out!
I know that some of the above does not exactly answer your original question. However, I hope that it may serve to provide some related thoughts.
Я играю в органе
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The reference was to the first option. No, we probably are not going to agree!
However, whilst I do know that JSB liked cymbelsterns and that he particularly liked trying-out 32p reeds, I am unsure as to whether he would have liked tubular bells or a bass drum, for example. I would be interested to hear of contemporaneous examples which he would have known!
Insofar as LIncoln is concerned, I thought that this was exactly what the letter was implying - so presumably we agree - I think!
Whilst I take your point about the 100mm wind pressure for the Choir Organ at Liverpool, there are plenty of examples of very high wind pressures elsewhere in the instrument. Unnecessarily high, in my opinion. I have only heard it live on one occasion - and that was quite sufficient! Ian Tracey played so loudly that I had to leave the building. Now, I like loud organ music, but the operative word here is 'music'. Notwithstanding Ian Tracey's great ability and superb technique, I found the sound oppressive and distinctly un-musical. Rather, it was just so much sheer noise. Personally, I think that many of the wind pressures could be lowered to good effect - the organ will still, I am sure, be adequate for the building.
....waiting for incredulous response from Roffensis....
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But what about a completion project , Pierre ? The organ as originally conceived was to have had everything that is there now PLUSAn Echo Division 23 stops, 19 manual and 4 pedal including a carillon to tenor C. That will not please PNCD.
A West End Section 30 stops, Great 9, Swell 11 , Pedal 9 and the Trompette Militaire which was originally intended for the West End and not its present location
A west end chorus of LOW PRESSURE chamades might be an interesting addition, albeit not authentic. Personally, if I had the money, I would donate the carillon. But since I do not, all those driven to apoplexy by the very thought, can calm down for the moment. All they have to worry about is someone else with the same vulgar tastes AND money. Put like that perhaps they should worry.
Regards to all.
Brian Childs
Probably not!
I did not like the Carillon III (12, 17, 22) at S. Etienne, Caen, either! Yes, I know that this stop is a mixture and therefore not a true percussion effect! I was also rather unpleasantly surprised that the pipes were situated on the Jeux de Fonds chest, too - not on the Jeux de Combinaisons chest.
As for additions, as I mentioned to Richard in another post in this thread - you may wish to keep your eyes on the nave bridge over the next few months, or so. Your comment about a nave chamade chorus may not be quite so wide of the mark....except, of course, for the reference to low pressure. I am not sure that such a thing exists on this organ.
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Hi....I also agree that a short period of quiet music is acceptable - but constant switching between very quiet and very loud can become irritating!
To a large extent, the approach that the recordist takes is governed by the final audience of the product - a recording for the general entertainment market will be approached in a different way to a purist, documentary-type recording for the enthusiast (which I prefer on the odd occaisions when I've got time to just sit and listen) - although traffic noise outside is a bit of a problem here.
....Tony
Yes - I deliberately avoided this when specifying the order of the tracks on the final edit. At the beginning, there are three comparatively loud pieces (albeit with some variation in dynamic level and timbre). There follow three or four quieter pieces (including the whole of Widor's 2me Symphonie, the first three movements of which are largely mp to mf, or so).
Whilst there are enough variations in dynamic and timbre to provide interest for the listener, I have tried to avoid the 'loud-soft' effect of track-programming which can be found on some commercial CDs. The producer/recording engineer and I experimented with compression, but in the end used only the lowest level, since I felt that any increase in this (artificial) effect was aurally dishonest!
I also got to design the cover, tray insert and inner booklet - which was nice....(!)
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The memory of the old works well but slowly! Two further snippets have surfaced in my mind re the Lincoln Tubas. Apparently Dr Bennet, the organist at the time, had been a pupil of Rheinberger and thus had certain ideas about how an organ should sound. Also it seems that the equivalent stops at Hereford were used as some sort of model or pattern but without anyone making proper allowance for the difference in size of the two buildings.Sorry I cannot retrieve the letter at the moment or I could be more specific but I am fairly confident that is the gist of it.
Brian Childs
It would be a convenient explanation if it were true - unfortunately, it is not!
At some point in 1896, Henry Willis was engaged in correspondence with Dr. G. J. Bennett, then Titulaire at Lincoln. I quote from the relevant portion of the letter:-
"....It would be, if not impossible, most unwise to stultify the tubas by placing them in a box. I know that there is one at Hereford, which I think spoiled. We must remember the church [Lincoln Cathedral] we are catering for is at least four times the size of Hereford." (My emphasis.)
There is more information given regarding the planned rebuild at Lincoln, mostly concerning the upperwork and the sub-unison ranks of the GO and Swell organs.
I have to say that I had forgotten that Hereford had an enclosed Tuba (presumably now the Tromba). This is one big Willis which I have not yet heard live - only in recordings. I really should get to hear it sometime.
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Well, this is the same for Tournemire, and even, to a somewhat lesserdegree, for Messiaen; their music is made for something like
"Concerts spirituels".
Not only is Howell's music deeply rooted in Faith, like Tournemire's and Messiaen's, which are prayers, but it was written for organs that were done for the accompaniment above anything else.
So of course it's "mood music". Above all, it belongs to Cathedrals (or big churches) not to the concert-room, as someone else already said.
....But this is genuine organ music!
As an organ lover I prefer this kind of composers among all others.
Best wishes,
Pierre
I agree, up to a point. I would, however, hestiate to agree that the music of Howells is 'deeply rooted in Faith' - certainly a former Titulaire of Birmingham Cathedral took me to task some years ago for making the same statement! On reflection, I can see his point. The music of Howells was undoubtedly linked to particular buildings, their acoustic ambience and their organs. However, whilst his music (particularly the choral music) is often uplifting in effect, I do wonder whether this is as a result of any personal faith (in God) which Howells may have had, or whether it is a more emotional - possibly 'spiritual' response. Certainly, Howells endured his share of sadness and personal tragedy - not just the loss of his son Michael, at the age of nine (I visited his grave a couple of summers ago) - but also personal illness. (Howells was, I believe, for a short time, Assistant Organist of Salisbury Cathedral. During this time, he fell gravely ill and was not expected to recover. Fortunately, he was spared.)
I would be interested to read any views or recollections which Paul Derrett might wish to share.
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While we are (not) on the subject of Father Henry Willis's Greatest Hits, is anyone aware of the current state of the organ at St. Michael's, Tenbury?
Then there is, of course, St. Bees' Priory - I know that it was altered by H&H, but it is still basically Willis.
Moving down south and west, there is the Willis at Tiverton Parish Church and the Willis at Bideford Parish Church - both in Devon. Certainly, a few years ago, both instruments were good examples of surviving Willis stock, though in what state they are currently, I do not know.
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My apologies if it has been mentioned before, but doe not Priory Records offer at least a limited re-issue service?
It is (obviously) also worth checking-out the second-hand LP shops. I have managde to acquire virtually the entire Great Cathedral Organs series, in addition to many other fine now-deleted LPs. Even some Cochereau - YAY!!!!
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Well, that is certainly interesting!
Are there any extant recordings of Joe Levett playing at Rochester? (Anything - not necessarily Whitlock.) I assume that they would have to be private recordings, or possibly re-recordings.
It would be most interesting to hear the old organ - particularly the 'old-world' charm. I would agree that Chichester has this in abundance and I would very much like to hear an old recording of Rochester.
I would certainly concur as regards Chester - although I would like to hear an old (pre-1969) recording of that instrument. I regard Hill as one of the finest builders ever to emerge from the UK. Certainly, there was generally a much greater sense of structure and balance than either a Willis (where the reeds are everything) or a Harrison (where contrasts are the order of the day).
I am aware that I am generalising - there is obviously more to a Willis organ than the chorus reeds, but, having recently again played Salisbury at night, once whilst the reeds of the Pedal, GO and Solo Tuba ranks were silent (due to re-leathering) and once when the wind supply had been restored - the difference was incredible. Without the reeds, (save those on the Swell), Salisbury is lacklustre and impotent.
Now, whilst the same could be said of many other organs, Hill choruses are so utterly musical and cohesive - even exciting - that the reeds become a useful adjunct, a colouring - rather than a huge jump to a big climax.
I still like Truro, Salisbury, Ripon, etc - but for different reasons!
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Rochester was altered in some respects, but the basic sound of it remains intact. Whitlock knew the organ per the 1905 Walker rebuild. The 1957 rebuild in essence was based more on the extention of what was there (the Choir was very extended), and did not alter things as much as people might think. This is the organ I grew up with, together with Canterbury. The Mander rebuild of Rochester was very faithful to what was there. Preservation of the "roundness" of tone was mentioned as desirable in the late 70s. When the rebuild finally came, Manders did good work, in that the variety of colour was dramatically increased, centering on solo and Choir areas. The Great, Swell, and Pedal remained as they were with really very little tweaking. The biggest difference to the great was the new 8 and 4 reeds and the mixture, but if you do not use these, you hear no real difference whatever in the great. The swell likewise remains almost exactly as in 1957, and the pedal also. Additions to the latter were of course needed, and happened. The huge raucous pedal Ophicleide was also made more polite! I can only state that the organ remains today very recognisable and that very little pipework indeed was removed by Manders. For example, only 30 notes of the choir Tromba ended up on the pedal. Luckily, the very fine Tuba remained. Personally, I would have put the Tromba as the 8 ft great reed, and matched to that. One can say that Whitlock would most surely recognise the sound of the organ even now, apart from the great reeds, which I don't think are as successful as they could have been. Too brash, with not as much body perhaps as one would expect. knowing Bournemouth St Stephens, I consider Rochester far and away the superior vehicle for Whitlock, and more relevant than any. It's historical associations make it a must. It will take an enlightened producer to realise its potential. Having heard it countless times, and played it, I am no doubt, and it remains a most exciting and full sound, that grips the building with a true grandeur. It also has a wonderful old world tone to it, a "darkness" rarely met. It remains THE Whitlock organ for me.Hmm....I remain unconvinced!
In 1934, shortly after Whitlock left Rochester, ten ranks were either revoiced, re-sited or replaced with new pipework. According to the information in Paul Hale's excellent book, the rebuild of 1957 was rather more far-reaching in effect. The GO reed was revoiced and extended both ways, the Choir Organ gained several extended ranks (e.g.: the old Swell Stopped Diapason - four pitches and the Dulciana - five pitches). Several stops in the Swell were replaced, revoiced, with others prepared-for. The Pedal Ophicleide rank also dates from this time. There were subesquent alterations requested by the then Titulaire, Dr. Robert Ashfield - the Choir gained an extended Larigot, a Cymbale (29, 33, 36) - this latter was a separate rank - and a new Flûte à Cheminée . Further changes to the GO included a 4p extension of the Choir Flûte and a new Furniture (26, 29). On the Swell, the old Trumpet was re-cast as a Clarion and the Oboe replaced by a new Horn. There was also a chest swinging (in Charismatic fashion) from the roof of the Swell containing a Twelfth and an extended Nineteenth.
Since, in the rebuild of 1989 the following new ranks were installed: GO - nine, Choir - eight, Swell - three, Solo - six and Pedal - two, with a new 32p octave for the reed, I am sceptical about how closely that the organ resembles the instrument on which Whitlock received lessons from Hylton Stewart.
For my money, St. Stephen's is still the most suitable instrument on which to perform his works. Apart from the fact that many of his works were written (and registered for) this instrument (or that at The Pavilion), St. Stephen's has only had minor tonal alterations* since Whitlock last played it. Oh, and of course, a new console.
* Including the removal of two ranks in the Swell, to aid tuning access and the possible alteration of the Swell 16p reed.
For all that, Rochester is an extremely nice organ!
Sheffield Cathedral
in The Organ
Posted · Report reply
You may well ask! Presumably it was 'worn-out' - just like Worcester....
!
Surely, it was not as simple as that instrument being considered unfashionable?
Any scheme for a replacement organ would need carefully to consider the fact that the cathedral has two points of axis, being, I believe, L-shaped. Consequently, in order to be effective in as many parts of the building as possible, the organ would need to speak clearly in at least two different directions.
Of course, any scheme conceived without reference to the acoustic properties of the building, the musical requirements and available space will be unlikely to succeed. However, armchair designing does pass the time pleasurably - it also costs nothing!
Here are my proposals (which, of course, ignore the caveat above!)
PEDAL
Sub Bourdon (Emp.) 32
Contra Bass (W) 16
Violone (M) 16
Sub Bass 16
Octave (M) 8
Stopped Flute 8
Fifteenth 4
Open Flute 4
Mixture (22, 26, 29) III
Contra Trombone (Emp.) 32
Bombarde 16
Trombone (W) 16
Trumpet 8
Bassoon 8
Shawm 4
CHAIRE
Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Prestant 4
Nason Flute 4
Nazard 2 2/3
Recorder 2
Tierce 1 3/5
Larigot 1 1/3
Twenty Second 1
Cimbel (29, 33, 36) III
GREAT
Contra Salicional 16
Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Harmonic Flute 8
Gamba 8
Octave 4
Principal 4
Wald Flute 4
Fifteenth 2
Furniture (19, 22, 26, 29) IV
Cornet (1, 8, 12, 15, 17: TG) V
Bass Trumpet 16
Posaune 8
Clarion 4
Great and Chaire Exchange
SWELL
Quintatön 16
Open Diapason
Rohr Flöte
Salicional 8
Vox Angelica (AA#) 8
Geigen Principal 4
Suabe Flöte 4
Flageolet 2
Mixture (15, 19, 22) III
Sharp Mixture (22, 26, 29) III
Hautbois 8
Tremulant
Fagotto 16
Trumpet 8
Clarion 4
Sub Octave
SOLO
Viole de Gambe 8
Voix Célestes (CC) 8
Flûte Harmonique 8
Flûte Traversière 4
Cor de Basset (73 pipes) 16
Voix Humaine 8
Tremulant
Tuba Magna 8
Trompette Harmonique 8
Clairon Harmonique 4
Sub Octave
Unison Off
Octave
NAVE
(Pedal)
Bourdon 16
Violoncello (M) 8
(Manual)
Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Octave 4
Spitz Flöte 4
Fifteenth 2
Mixture (15, 19, 22, 26, 29) V-VI
Trompeta Réal 8
Naturally, I have just ignored my own advice, but it was an interesting exercise. Any serious scheme would of course need a site survey and take into account available space for soundboards. Incidentally, all soundboards in my instrument would be new and, no, it will not have mechanical action!