pcnd5584
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Posts posted by pcnd5584
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polite Anglican answer(Quote)
Is that Understatment or british humor? It may be I'm a provincial here in the
middle-of-nowhere southern Belgium, but I feel Howell's music as rooted
in a tragical life. And I prefer to compare it to Tournemire's.
Liverpool Cathedral would be fine, Hereford too or W....Euh, somewhere
in western England, where I actually discovered this music played on a
somewhat strange organ. But these are the ones I have heard live, of course
there are surely others.
Best wishes,
Pierre
So, where was the organ in the west of England?!
I must agree with you, M. Lauwers. Howells did have a somewhat tragic life. In addition, whilst I think that his choral music is generally superb, I have usually avoided playing his organ compositions in recitals. I think that primarily, this is because I view it as 'mood' music. Since many of his published compositions sound like improvisations, following a similar format (I am thinking of the Psalm-Preludes, rather than the Sonata) they are excellent to open or close evensong, but I have found that they are generally less well-received as items in a recital.
It is true that the Six Pieces are more suitable and that at least two of the rhapsodies would be suitable for a recital. However, to me, there seems to be some indefinable element missing - sorry, I am not explaining this well.
I do understand that he deputised at St. John's, Cambridge during WWII and that apparently he improvised virtually every voluntary. Whether or not they all sounded similar, I do not know.
Do not think, by this, that I am berating his music - I rate Howells as one of the finest British composers of the 20th Century. I just find that, for me, much of his organ music sits uncomfortably between two stools.
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A set of 8' Party Horns (AKA The Trompette Militaire) on 50" wind pressure was added a few years ago. Trust me, you do not want to be under the Corona Gallery when this stop is being played with Sub & Super drawn. The effect is absolutley frightening.The Tuba Magna also now operates on a full 50" wind pressure, rather than the lack lustre 37ish he had operated on for so long.
For those that haven't seen them, an image link from Danny Bishops site:
Hey Magna - welcome!
Interesting gratuitous shot of scary naked organ pipes....
To be honest, I do not think that I would wish to be in the same building when Ian uses the party-horns....
The ones on my own instrument are quite enough - perhaps one day you will actually get to hear them live!The Bombarde reeds at Oxford are also quite exciting - sorry you missed them this year....grrrrr....
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The first picture you mention is neither cropped nor scanned, it was found it on Yahoo Images and I linked it to a discussion forum. Yes the other pictures are taken by myself, do you doubt that? I think the fact that I feature in some of the pictures, some are taken from the organ loft and some are taken when the building was closed suggests that perhaps they were infact taken by myself. Some of them were even taken on my camera phone (the 2nd and 3rd pictures).I hope that has put the fun back into the pictures!
Firstly, I did not say that the picture was cropped, only to hint (albeit obliquely) that if one were to use a copyright picture, cropping the details of the copyright assignment would not be sufficient.
Secondly, no, I do not doubt that you took the pictures. However, I was referring to those general views in which you do not appear.
Quite how I am supposed to infer whether or not the building was closed from a picture is beyond my comprehension. I recently managed to take several pictures of the interiors of Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford and Coutances Cathedral (Normandy). To all intents and purposes, both buildings look deserted and could well have been closed to visitors. Notwithstanding, in both cases the buildings were open and had several visitors walking around.
I hope that this improves the clarity of my original post.
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No Ian Tracey has his head screwed on and would not allow anything to be altered. He's the ultimate conservationist. I only wish there were more cathedral organists/choirmasters like him. He is also one of the very few indeed to have his choir singing in a proper traditional English tone, none of this modern thin and reedy "Continental" (?!) tone with bad diction.
Umm....you may wish to keep your eyes on the nave bridge over the next few months. Oh, and you probably should buy a hat - one with really thick ear-flaps.
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It is true that only the staff or visiting recitalists get to play Liverpool Anglican.It is "the one" that everyone wants to play, but sadly for everyone who wants to play, the Dean & Chapter stipulate that the organ can only be used for practice when the building is closed (other than for services). When the building is closed, someone has to be there, which costs money.
Money is something Cathedrals don't seem to have a lot of these days.
It is not the staff being awkward or unfriendly, it is just the way things have to be.
Would you want to explain to Ian that you'd broken her?!?
Just buy him a few beers - he will be fine....
Anyway - surely the Liverpool organ is a him?!
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As regards the Whitlock, someone should wake up to the fact he was actually at Rochester Cathedral, and loved that organ. despite two major rebuilds since his time, the organ still is very recognisable, and more importantly retains the exact coulours needed for his music. In all his music you can hear the Rochester influence. Priory diod issue a CD of choral works there, but no one has ever bothered to do anything solo organ wise, not even the five pieces dedicated to locals. His music has always featured at rochester, and I well recall both Robert Ashfield and Joe Levett playing his music. Joe Levett having died only a few years ago was a real loss, as one woh knew him personally, and me him. He was a mine of information concerning both Whitlock and his use of that organ. Instead we get treated to everyone else recording his stuff at St Pauls and so on, and that organ does not quite suit his music in the way Rochester does. Too thin and too much acoustic for a start. Then there are other composers with strong cathedral associations, Harvey Grace at Chichester, Blair at Worcester, the list could go on. Again, it took Amphion to actually reissue any of the old Whitlock recordings at Rochester, and the BBC to broadcast a recital of his music some years ago.
Not, of course, forgetting the Robert Gower LP of Whitlock's music, on the organ of St. Stephen's, Bournemouth. This organ is arguably even more suitable than the present Rochester instrument (which, according to my booklet, was altered considerably). The only tonal alterations to St. Stephen's, were the GO Mixture IV, replaced with a 17, 19, 22 mixture - I do wish that had not been done! Also, the GO 4p Harmonic Flute was replaced with a Spitz Flute 4p (again, unfortunate). In addition, I and several colleague are convinced that R&D either revoiced the Choir Organ Tuba or substituted another rank of pipes in its place.
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I have had the great good fortune to be allowed to play Westminster Abbey organ from time to time and was there enjoying myself as recently as three weeks ago. It seemed to be fully up to its usual standard in both tuning and mechanism. I believe that H&H's London tuner makes a weekly call to keep it 'just so'.I accept that the instrument still has one or two weaknesses (albeit many former shortcomings were amended by H&H in the 80's to Simon Preston's design) - most notably the shortage of independant Pedal ranks - but I think (all-in-all) that it's a splendid beast (full of gorgeous colours and with several different and equally exciting louder combinations) - in short, an organ upon which one can play virtually everything in the repertoire pretty convincingly.
I therefore submit that if it really sounded awful to your correspondent recently, I guess it is likely to be:
1. That the player might not have set his/her registrations up carefully enough - like so many large organs, what the player hears at the W.A. console is not the same as a congregation/audience hears downstairs.
2. That the current heat wave may have suddenly hit the reeds exceptionally hard. I believe that this explanation is unlikely to be the case.
3. That this is type of instrument is not to your listener's taste and this has coloured the opinion we were given.
I would concur with Paul's statements. In my opinion, the Abbey organ is a fine instrument. Certainly a gifted former assistant also thought very highly of it.
Just a point about the mixtures. Actually the GO mixtures, when re-cast in the 1980s, lost tierce ranks. The composition being, I believe 15, 19, 22, 26, 29 and 29, 33, 36. The H&H Harmonics was retained.
Whilst the Bombarde division is powerful, used with care it can be very effective. The Abbey is reasonably large (tallest medieval vault in the UK at 102 feet) and no doubt the Bombarde section comes into its own when the State Trumpeters are cleaning their flags.... To be fair, I have to say that I prefer the Abbey Bombarde reeds to the Royal Trumpets at St. Paul's. I have at least one recording in which they sound so thin, they resemble giant harpsichords (sorry, Mr. Mander - but I do like Chichester!)
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It would probably be an organist who came with the visiting choir, and who had virtually no time to get used to the instrument.Umm....no - they do not allow visiting organists to play!
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....I have a problem with some Priory releases that preserve the dynamic range of the organ from pp-fff - in most domestic settings, that means constant adjustments to the volume control to hear the soft passages above the ambient noise (traffic, etc), or being nearly deafened with the loud bits. There is a particular problem with divided organs - there often will not be one place that does every part of the instrument justice.Tony
I think that this is preferable to the alternative, which would be, presumably, that all tracks are equalised so that everything comes out at the same volume. Yes, the former method does mean that it is occasionally necessary to adjust the volume. However, surely this is more likely to be a fair reflection of the effect of the instrument as heard live.
In an organ recording which I have just made, the microphone was placed in one position for the entire recording (diagonally opposite the case). Whilst the microphone was raised a few feet, the resulting sound is a pretty true representation of the instrument in its surroundings.
There are one or two moments on the recording where I use the softest stop on the Swell Organ with the box closed. Yes, it is very quiet - but it is also very quiet in the building. It does create a slight problem if one is listening in a car; however, that part of the track lasts only for a few seconds. At the opposite end of the scale, the disc concludes with the Choral from Vierne's Second Symphony - the tutti being employed for the last few chords. Again, it is comparatively loud on the CD (at a reasonable volume); once again, in the building the effect of the tutti is also quite shattering in various places.
Some food for thought.
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On the other hand, is there really any merit (or musicality) in being able to obliterate the rest of the instrument with single notes on a tuba which may sound as if it were donated by the Merchant Navy?Merit and musicality may not necessarily point to the same answer here. It could plausibly be argued that a solo tuba, like a town cryer, needs to be able to be heard over the surrounding bable. And in small doses the impact of such a stop can be undeniably exciting. Perhaps it is one of those experiences in life which we intellectually know we should not like, but secretly do ? Personally, I think a little goes a long way and such a stop would not be high on my list of essentials, but where they already exist in large organs whose players have other options at their disposal their removal would be wanton vandalism. I instance the Tuba Mirabilis at York and (though very different in tone) the Fanfare Trumpet on the Ulster Hall organ in Belfast.
BAC
I see you managed to quote my post, without quoting my post, as it were!
Personally, I am not a secret tuba fancier - or an overt one, for that matter....
However, it is interesting to note that these days the York Tuba Mirabilis now at least sounds even in timbre and power. This is due to the re-balancing caried out some years ago, by Phil Burbeck. As installed by H&H, the tuba was extremely uneven. This was because the tuner, in order to gain access to one side (might have been the C# side) closed all the tuning slots, because he kept getting caught on them! Phil Burbeck (with one of our choirmen holding notes) subsequently adjusted all pipes for evenness of timbre and power. He also did some other re-balancing, notably to the GO chorus, which apparently resulted in a rather better, more cohesive sound.
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Whilst I would not wish in any way to detract from this excellent board, should anyone wish to discuss organ matters on-line, I recommend Yahoo Messenger.
My Yahoo Identity is (un-surprisingly): pcnd5584. If I am on-line, I would be pleased to 'chat' (in the written sense!) to anyone who frequents this board. Feel free to disagree, or even agree with me - as you wish!
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A few minutes on the NPOR web site (www.bios.org.uk/npor), looking for organs with a Historic Organs Certificate (HOC) will find a number of contenders.Most of the major instruments in Cathedrals, etc. have been changed so much over the years that they can't really be called "historic".
Every Blessing
Tony
Hang on, there! Most 'historic' instruments in other (european) countries have also been altered, or at least, restored. For example, St. Bavokirke, Haarlem. As another contributor has mentioned, there were a number of things done in the course of the restoration of this historic instrument (1950s) which. even now, would be questionable. Whilst I realise that Rev. Newnham was probably inferring major tonal and transmission alterations, there is scarecly an organ alive (!) which is in its original state. If it was, it would in all probability be virtually un-playable.
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I was interested to read your post, Richard. I would agree with you. Having made several recordings, I can also testify that there are often 'tricks' played with balance.
I, too, rate Lincoln highly.
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HiThat's not quite what I said - althoguh by the nature of things, there MUST be a delay due to the speed of sound propogation between pipes and the console - and inevitably, when a console is detached, the distance is greater, and hence the dealy is greater.
Tony
Not necessarily. The action on my 'own' church instrument is virtually instantaneous. By this I mean that there is no appreciable delay whatsoever. The repetition is also excellent. The only part of the action which is slightly weak, is that of the Pedal Organ. This is, I suspect, for two reasons. Firstly, the pipework of the Pedal ranks stands on several chests, all with separate under-actions. Secondly, after forty years' heavy wear, the pallet magnets have a problem with residual charge. That is to say that the magnets retain some of the effects of the current passed through them. Consequently, some become tardy in releasing notes.
To agree with Nfortin - Gloucester has an excellent action. In my opinion, for larger instruments, with an (electro-magnetic) action as good as this, I really do not see the need for mechanical action.
To return to my own church. Despite very heavy wear over forty years, the action still works perfectly. The repetition is superior to many new solid-state actions which I have tried. In addition, the repetition is considerably better than the new mechanical action at, for example, Bath Abbey. There, I was able to play repeated chords at a considerably faster rate than that with which the action could cope. Personally, I found this a hindrance, rather than being more 'in touch' with my playing.
Furthermore, after spending another week at the console of the organ of Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford, I remain unconvinced that mechanical action is superior in every circumstance.
Whilst it is true that this organ has an exceptionally well-designed and sensitive mechanical action, there are many flaws. The action is almost too sensitive. The distance a key needs to be depressed in order for a note to sound is barely 2mm. When pressing pistons, the utmost care needs to be exercised in odrer to avoid accidentally sounding a note.
Then there is the problem of couplers (as at Chichester). There are simply not enough unison inter-clavier/pedal couplers. The Bombarde (clavier IV) can only be coupled to the GO. Therefore there is no possibility of using the Bombarde reeds 8- and 4p as a cantus firmus against the coupled choruses. (At Chichester, the absence of a Swell to Choir coupler is rather more serious and the only irritation about this otherwise excellent instrument.)
Then there is the question of balance. I must disagree with Rev. Newnham, here. The problems of balance engendered by the en fenetre console at Christ Church, Oxford are difficult to overcome without constant reference to a friend walking around downstairs. (This is not always possible - none of the choir could be spared, and I saw no point in asking a busy verger.) From the console, this organ, more than many, is totally misleading. Even stops such as the GO Bourdon 16p and the 8p flute, which sound distant at the console, are quite loud and full-bodied at the console. This is also true of the Bombarde reeds which, again, at the console sound as if they are in another building, yet, in the nave, they scalp old ladies and set the altar candles aflame.
Problems of balance on this organ, particularly when accompanying, are many! At the console, there is nothing to suggest that the balance of many of the individual registers will be so different in the body of the cathedral. Whilst many organists are accustomed to play 'blind', as it were; at Christ Church, the simple expedient of a detached console would make organists' (especially visiting organists') lives considerably more easy.
It is worth noting that at Christ Church (as at so many other cathedrals) for obvious practical reasons, daytime practice is limited to quiet flutes and that night-time practice is generally not possible.
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Yes, they are good pictures.
However, without wishing to spoil your fun, I feel that I should sound a note of caution. The first picture is clearly copyright (Robert Strafford). I presume you have obtained his permission to use the photograph? Cropping the picture is not enough, incidentally - it would still be recognisable by the photographer!
I mention this because DB has, on his website, used one of my pictures (a close-up of the C-C console of Ste. Sulpice, Paris). Whilst in a way this is a compliment, I am also slightly annoyed since he did not either ask my permission to use the photograph or credit me with taking and supplying the picture. Mind you, since he has been most generous in many other ways, I would not think of complaining....*
Just a small point, but, in the light of Mr. Mander's comments re- preoposed sound files breaking PRS laws, I thought that it was worth mentioning.
I assume, of course, that all other photographs were taken by you? They certainly look digital, as opposed to scanned.
* The fact that I am patently obviously complaining via this discussion board does, of course, not count....
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On the other hand, is there really any merit (or musicality) in being able to obliterate the rest of the instrument with single notes on a tuba which may sound as if it were donated by the Merchant Navy?
Notwithstanding, I was fascinated to read the tidbits supplied by Brian Childs - I also had heard that Willis viewed the Lincoln tuba ranks as, in effect, 'super' GO reeds - to add at a climax, rather than shout down the rest of the organ.
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The organ music of Howells would probably sound good in Bristol Cathedral - it has a similar acoustic to Gloucester and the most wonderful romantic organ. There again, it would also sound effective at Ripon Cathedral - which still retains its family of trombi on the GO.
In fact, there are quite a few organs in the UK which would be perfectly suitable vehicles for the performance of the music of Herbert Howells. Not all of them cathedrals, either. For example, the chapel at Charterhouse School, on which I believe there was a commercial recording of the organ music of Howells issued. The performer may have been Philip Scriven - but I am not sure.However, I would offer the conjecture that the chapel has a somewhat leaner acoustic environment than Gloucester Cathedral, though!
However, I venture to state that the Rieger organ of Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford, is entirely unsuitable for the performance of the music of Howells! That is, if one wishes to re-create the ambience and timbres which Howells almost certainly had in mind when writing.
No doubt people will think of many others.
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In addition to possessing a copy of the Cochereau DVD, which I heartily recommend, I also have a copy of a video by Philippe Delacour, playing at S. Jean-Baptiste, Château-Salins and Nôtre-Dame, Metz. Even on video the sound and picture quality are very good.
I also have a copy of the video made at the time of the re-opening of the Gloucester Cathedral organ. In mitigation, the fact that there is no footage of DB actually playing at the console during the concert is not entirely my fault. I was up in the loft turning pages for DB (and switching-on the spotlights he had rigged-up on the case). The sound chap had said "If you press the pause button when he starts playing, the video behind you will start recording". Did it? I think not. I pressed the button. I altered the angle of the remote. I pressed it several times. I went up to the machine and examined it for any helpful buttons. All to no avail.
If it is any consolation, DB played really well - as can be heard from the soundtrack. Since he is not particularly demonstrative when he is playing (Simon Lindley looks as if he is changing light-bulbs) you are not really missing anything....
The point about all that was - I can certainly recommend the video of Philippe Delacour playing, if, that is, it is still available.
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(1) the Culverhouse team who had by then recorded several Willis organs thought that Lincoln was a "dud", and the first one they had come across. The explanation seemed to be too much tone escaped up the central tower.(2) The Lincoln tubas utterly failed to come through full organ - Dr Marshall had come from Ripon where he apparently would have experienced no such a problem, even before the Orchestral Trumpet was added. Indeed these (Lincoln)stops had been referred to by "one local wit" as the "Lincoln Gambas" .
Perhaps this is the other way of looking at the fact that these stops are apparently suitable for occasional use as a bombarde chorus added to full organ ?
Brian Childs
Interesting!
A previous assitant tells me that it is noticeably louder than Salisbury. However, he did not mention the Tubas.
This is all fascinating!
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Speaking of Truro...is this not the finest Willis ever built?? Sorry but it was local to me as I grew up down there! 4man and 45 stops in a cathedral-wow what a sound. Mysterious, delicate, majesterial all you could wish for and the most amazing ped ophicleide ever heard!Cameron.
I would not necessarily agree with that statement! I beileve that I had a running discussion with John Hosking in connection with the Truro organ a few months ago. Naturally, he liked it very much. However, I am still of the opinion that he was viewing it through rose-tinted spectacles.
My points are (having played it on several occasions):
1) It is a little too loud for the building.
2) With neither the Choir or (more seriously) the Solo being enclosed, there is a lack of subtlety and expression, particularly with regard to the quiet orchestral reeds. (There are, in my opinion, rather finer examples of these at Exeter, in any case.)
3) The GO really needs another quiet 8p flute (or a Stopped Diapason) - this was also the view of at least two of the previous organists.
4) Personally, I find tierce mixtures irritating after about ten seconds. Whilst I realise that Willis probably intended them to be drawn with the reeds (which do not, frankly, need their help) they are useless in contrapuntal music and merely confuse things in hymn-playing. Furthermore, both mixtures break back at F30.
5) The Pedal Ophicleide is useless for anything other that balancing Full Organ. This may be exciting, but it is certainly not versatile.
6) There is no 4p flute in the Swell - this is a real handicap , particularly when accompanying.
7) In addition to there being nothing above 8p pitch on the Pedal Organ, there is no quiet flute above 16p pitch.
8) The GO reeds (and the flue double) would be more useful if they were also available on the pedals and (in the case of the reeds) on the Choir Organ.
9) The 32p flue is irregular in speech and volume. AAAA is too loud, whils several other notes are somewhat indistinct.
Of course, none of this is to say that it is a bad organ. This is clearly not the case. It does have real majesty and beauty. However, I would not personally term it the best Father Willis ever made!
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Yes - I too have managed to acquire a copy of the Liszt at Salisbury, played by the late Peter G. le Huray. The playing is indeed superb and the organ sounds wonderful.
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Thank you! Some good thoughts there.
I am now off to play for a visiting choir in Oxford for the week - have a good one, everyone!
Alastair, sorry I cannot be much help about French organs, Paris I know and Normandy, but apart from that, I can only recommend Bordeaux Cathedral (C-C). Nice case, too. On the way down (if you are arriving at Cherbourg, not Calais) you could try the big church in the old part of the town (S. Pierre?). Also Valognes (Eglise S. Malo) - nice, two claviers, chamades 8p and 4p on GO. The organ sits on concrete shelves in the rebuilt west end (the US forces managed to trash the town whilst liberating it). Or further to the east coast, there is S. Etienne, Caen (Abbaye aux Hommes) and, of course, the wonderful old C-C at Bayeux Cathedral.
If you find some good ones further down, I would be very pleased to hear about them.
Best wishes!
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Depends what you mean by sterling. The balance beween manuals is usually very poor, and his organs rely heavily on reeds to give power. The diapasons typically fall off below tenor C, and the flutes are much of a muchness. At times his organs could be truly great, such as St Georges Liverpool, and Ally Pally, and i believe Canterbury Cathedral, but overall I always had the impression of mass production. Gray and Davison actually made the reeds in the early years, and that explains similarities there. I have utmost respect for a good Willis, where it occurs, but much prefer Hill, which to me comes over as more purely singing tone, and very musically balanced. That from a ex Willis finatic who just realised that they were perhaps not the greatest that ever walked. Just amogst them.
You make some interesting points!
I am particularly interested to hear the thought that Canterbury surpassed Salisbury and Lincoln (in its un-restored state, presumably). I understand from a previous assistant at Lincoln (who is also extremely familiar with the Salisbury organ) that he certainly viewed Lincoln more favourably than Salisbury. He expressed the opinion that it was both louder and more magnificent. However, Canterbury is comparatively little talked-about as far as I know.
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Hill organs are indeed often excellent. I much prefer the structure of Hill's diapason choruses - particularly when he capped them with a 19, 22, 26, 29 mixture. There is also generally a great variety of quiet ranks - take, for example the old Hill at Shrewsbury Abbey. Not well-known and with several stops still prepared-for, it is still a superb instrument. Certainly, a few years ago, the pneumatic action was still working well. There had been one or two alterations earlier in the last century (for example, the Swell Oboe had been converted to a 16p stop - I think stopping at TC). However, there was a great variety in the quieter ranks, notably the Choir Organ. I still cannot help wondering what Chester would have been like if Roger Fisher had just had R&D fit a new action and perhaps one or two minor alterations to the Pedal and Choir organs.
The ones on my own instrument are quite enough - perhaps one day you will actually get to hear them live!
Pneumatic Actions
in Nuts and bolts
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Yes - it does!
The Choir to Pub has still not been connected as at 31-vii-2005.