pcnd5584
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Posts posted by pcnd5584
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Other bits of organ include a bit of Canterbury at Eton I think (I throw the gauntlet down to John Mander to correct me on that one!), and all the bits of organs that weren't nice to look at and sounded worse ended up at a nice church in Liverpool that shall be nameless, but has already been mentioned, and no I don't mean Liverpool cathedral!
Hmm....I wondered where that pipework had gone.
I still want to know why Canterbury discarded their 32p open wood rank - was it really beyond repair?
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Well, it is good to read about the bizarre things colleagues have to put up with - I think that I have got off fairly lightly, so far.
However, later to-day (it is now 00h25) I have to play for a funeral BUT - there will be a CD of a Meatloaf track in the middle of the service - for reflection...
REFLECTION??!!
In addition, as the cortège leaves the church, another Meatloaf track will be featured. I am assuming that neither track will be the well-known Meatloaf anthem Bat out of Hell...
Incidentally, I still think that the most suitable hymn for a wedding is No. 3 in The English Hymnal.... wish someone would choose it ....
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I still think that it is an excellent idea.
How about the rest of my scheme? I was being serious.
I would definitely lose the Dulciana - I have never found a use for one of these...
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Riddle me this, riddle me that ....Well, you could always come to London and hear the old Gloucester Tuba in situ at All Saints, Margaret Street.
Jeremy Jones
London
Now that is a wonderful instrument - I have played it a few times (including once for a Chinese wedding). I did try the Tuba. It is quite loud in the building! But, hey, if you have it...
(Hope they have removed those two nasty electronic 32p pedal stops, though...)
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I am no technician and do not have the knowledge to assess whether what I have been told is correct or arrant nonsense, but it would seem that its being true would account for the belief that the 100" pressure Hope-Jones wanted to use for a Tuba at Worcester and which was employed in Atlantic City had now been used in an organ which it is possible to hear played.Well, yes; but if it is not even necessary to be present in the same town in order to hear the stop, perhaps it is possible that we have crossed the line between musicality and sheer noise.
(Goodness, I never thought that I would say/type anything that might suggest that an organ could be too noisy...
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I agree - funny how Worcester rears its head in the unlikeliest of topics - perhaps it is just possible that there are many out there who, like me, think that it is a fabulous instrument!
Certainly I would concur with nfortin's statement that there is always an element of risk when constructing a new organ. There is a fairly new instrument in a moderate-sized town a few miles from Exeter. Having played it, I would have sent the reeds back to the voicing-shop before signing a certificate of acceptance!
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For its modest size, the Ripon organ has a formidable battery of high-pressure ammunition, needed to reach the nave across the gulf of the central crossing. Apart from the big Tuba - audible at the bus station 300 yeards away with the doors of the cathedral open - there is the smaller enclosed specimen at 16 and 8 and the Orchestral Trumpet lying on 18" wind on top of the swell box. The Arthur-Harrisonised Great trombas may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's only fair that such splendid dinosaurs should be preserved in at least one cathedral instrument, if only as a testament to early 20c organ building fashion. They have their uses, eg in the more bloodthirsty moments of the Healey Willan and, of course, on great festivals such as Christmas and Easter Day. We Yorkshire folk are proud of them!JS
As I have mentioned elsewhere - I would agree with you! Having played it on several occasions for services, I like the Ripon organ immensely. My point was that it could be argued from either position, depending on one's personal preference in reed-timbre. For the record, I can happily live with either!
Actually, the Orchestrul Trumpet can also be heard from the bus station. I did once stand on top of the Swell box, beside the pipes - fortunately, they were not in use at the time...
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This we don't know of course, but it was his first one!Best wishes,
Pierre Lauwers
Oh! I had assumed you were going to type 'favourite'. It was probably that, too!
Apparently Herbert Byard who was, I believe, assistant to John Sanders at the time of the reconstruction actually liked the rebuilt Gloucester organ!
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Tewkesbury is comfortable, but not light, with swell coupled to great. I think its a bit of a red herring worrying if the action is heavy with all manual couplers drawn - how often should one wish to do this if the great and swell are properly developed?I too like the occasional OTT sound palette available with strings & octave couplers, but on the whole view octave couplers as a bad thing. Its one thing to create additional versatility with octave couplers and "unison off", but quite another to need to use them to boost sound and fill in for otherwise inadequate divisions.
To be honest, in my own church, it is necessary not just to couple the Swell to the GO (for the hymns, at least) but also the third clavier. If I am playing the music of JSB, I still prefer to couple the Swell chorus to the GO. The building is quite dry acoustically and the sound is actually better thus. This is true from various places in the nave and aisles - not just the console.
Yes, it is possible to be gauche in the use of octave couplers; however, for quiet effects of etherial beauty, I would not part with them. The Swell Sub Octave is also useful in the last sections of pieces such as Tu es Petra and the Choral from Vierne's 2me Symphonie. This is one of my favourite movements and I use the Sub Octave coupler to provide the necessary gravitas in the final page-and-a half. Without it, on my instrument, the sound is thin and top-heavy.
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==================I think a discussion about Hope-Jone's tonal ideals would be utterly pointless. They could be summed up with one word, which is mono-syllabic, and they bounce!
Give me a fresh Pizza, a bottle of "Bud", dancing cats (electro-pneumatic of course), pre-programmed percussions and music by Mancini and I'll show you a different version of heaven, stalking along with the "Pink Panther."
MM
With this, I would heartily concur - except the last part.
For my money, the naked, clog-dancing sheep and a bottle of Absolut Vodka* do it for me any day - the sheep are sooo cute....
*...ummm...sorry, is this advertising?
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I would recommend tyring the action at St Ignatius Loyola, New York. I think you would be pleasantly surpriised. It is very mannageable with all four manuals coupled and it is a big instrument - 68 speaking stops.Well, I would like very much to play this instrument - I only know it from articles which I have read.
However, apart from not being able at present to afford the air fare to NYC; according to a documentary on the TV last night, the entire eastern seaboard of the US is in possibly imminent danger of annihilation by a mega-tsunami. So, I think that I will pass, until someone has sorted-out a way of assessing the time-scale...
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IAnswer me this, just how do you play the opening of "God is gone up"? Or how do you play the opening of the Nunc D. in Sumsion in G? Or how do you play any of the trumpet tunes/voluntaries at weddings?The Gloucester organ can sound quite thrilling (if you don't get too far back in the nave) especially in French Romantic music, but I don't think it can do any of the things I've cited as examples above - and that should be what its there for.
The Finzi: Reeds 8p and 4p on GO with Swell Trumpet 8p and Choir Cremona 8p (all coupled). The building then does the rest. It could equally be asked 'how do you play it at Ripon - on fat trombi?' Arguably, this could be just as un-musical.
Sumsion? Well, Swell strings and possibly the flute 4p. The Swell foundations sound quite different downstairs.
Well, it does need a solo reed (no, not a tuba, though!). It almost acquired one in 1999, but it was just impossible to find room for it. I suggested a horizontal reed at impost level, facing west. However, I was only partly serious. The case is beautiful and it would have ruined the proportions.
Incidentally, it is perfectly possible to accompany a service in the quire and avoid chiffing flutes. I do not particulary like them, either!
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I did read somewhere this organ (the previous one) was Howell's...Best wishes,
Pierre Lauwers
...favourite?
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To be honest I agree with Tony. I also think too many organists see their positon as a job likelike any other, when in reality it isn't. Its a calling, and an outreach, or should be. I always listen to homilies in my own church, and enjoy them. I also always tell my chorsters why they are there, not as an entertainment, but to enhance the worship of almighty God. This may well not cut any ice with many organists, and is half the reason why there are such difficulites with organists in church, as there is often just no link with christianity and a organist. Thats all it is about though, its the reason for the church and everything to do with it. I think that decrying sermons per se is just plain ignorant, some are truly bad and not thought out, that's true. People do have a "cut off" point where they will stop listening, and that goes for music and everything else in life. But we still all have a lot to learn, and humility is a good start. Far better to support a priest in every which way you can and help in whatever way you can to build the church up. I also get thoroughly brassed off by loud talking during a voluntary, and talking through the sevice, first communions being a classic example, shher bedlam. But that is other peoples attitudes, and we need to set a better example. You cannot blame others or other aspects of the church for a few peoples lack of understnding and appreciation. I also note in this day and age that clergy often do not have the same outreach they used to have, but the thing is ultimately this. You have to be an organist for the right reasons, and that has to be a servant to the church and all it is. Otherwise its blackpool Tower, and you'll not only have talking to contend with but also dancing as well!!! Its worth noting that organ recitals are also plagued with chit chat, which would be unthinkable in a play. Two wrongs still dont make a right! A good slap in the face and "shullup" might work!!
Actually, I take my job very seriously, including the spiritual aspect of the services! That is precisely why I am tired of over-long, badly-prepared 'sermons'. Read my post of 1st August!
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Well, personally, even without hearing it (I know that someone is going to tell me that this is inadvisable!) I would exchange the GO Dulciana for a Fifteenth and swap the GO Gedeckt with the Swell Stopped Diapason. I would also remove the Swell Twelfth and replce it with a Céleste - liturgically, I find a good undulant infinitely more useful - particulary if it is in the Swell Organ. Depending on the voicing, I may also wish to replace the Swell Oboe with a small-scaled Trumpet, if there is room on the slide.
Insofar as cost is concerned, naturally it depends on who is going to undertake the work, the condition of the soundboards and the space available. However, you may be looking at approximately £1,500 for the GO Fifteenth (including re-veneering the rackboard), £500 for the GO and Swell 8p flutes swap, about £2,000 for the Swell Céleste and possibly £3,000 - £4,000 for the Trumpet. This assumes that the new ranks will utilise suitable second-hand ranks. Some builders will be cheaper than this and several will be rather more expensive.
If there was room to insert a metal Violoncello 8p on the Pedal Organ, I think that you would find that this would greatly aid definition. The stop could aslo be extende upwards to provied a Viole 4p. This could cost in the region of £2,000 - £3,000. It is difficult to assess, since prices depend on so many things.
As I have said, it is perhaps unwise to suggest alterations without first playing the organ - and hearing it in the context of a normal Sunday service; I have certainly never taken the first course of action when consulting on any job up to now! However, you did ask! Hope it helps.
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Dear Paul,
Thank you for your reply; I enjoyed reading it - even the part about Gloucester!
A few thoughts come to mind:
I agree with your comments with regard to HTH except:
1) Any stop changes will, of course, only be silent at the console! Whilst I am aware that there are some builders who claim to have installed silent sliders and slider-motors, I have yet to hear any!
Gloucester:
I still like it!
It may be interesting to note that at the time of the rebuild, there were also many genuine musicians and music-lovers who also liked it. These same people had found the 1920 H&H oppressive and un-musical, particularly when played loudly (to quote Herbert Byard loosely!) It tended previously to engulf the singers with a thick, unclear noise, apparently (I am not old enough to remember it, so I have to rely on contemporary reports). Yes, there were also many (like Howells) who did not like it. I am entirely sympathetic to their viewpoints (I am extremely fond of the choral music of Howells). However, take, for example, the music of J. S. Bach. Formerly, played at Gloucester, it was apparently unclear and heavy - the voice-parts were unbalanced. Now, it is a thrilling, totally clear sound - even when listening whilst leaning against the west door.
As for the Swell Hautboy - I have heard far worse examples from several other builders in other organs, romantic and modern!
With respect to the revoicing of the antique pipes, Downes has written that permission was sought from the Dean and Chapter. I cannot agree that it was one of the greatest romantic organs ever built! It was a fairly standard H&H rebuild of a Willis, in which Arthur Harrison had also revoiced most of the chorus reeds (for example, the family of trombi on the GO). Probably Willis enthusiasts of the 1920s were also not entirely happy with the H&H transformation. Then there was the Choir Organ - six stops, including a Double Dulciana - which contributed greatly to the bulky and unsightly appearance of the case, with its excresences!
Possibly the organ builders at H N&B at the time were of a more nervous disposition then their colleagues at Durham had been twenty years earlier - they were apparently not frightened by RD - there are several instances of various H&H employees standing up to Downes!
Having played for quite a few services on the Gloucester organ and had many lessons on it with DB, I still find it superb and so alive. The thing I enjoy most is being able to hear all of the actual notes, as opposed to some acoustically-confused impression! Yet, as I have said before, I am able also to appreciate many other quite different organs. There is always beauty if one is prepared to look for it.
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However, I believe we were supposed to be discussing Trombe and Trompettes. (Yes, I know I am as guilty as anyone with respect to straying from the subject!)
So, has anyone out there heard the new recording of the Temple Church H&H? I believe that James Vivian is the artist. Now that organ possesses two trombe on the GO, both enclosed in a separate box (as opposed to King's, Cambridge, where all three ranks are enclosed in the Solo box). Apparently, they are not the usual, opaque beasts; they are brighter and more free in timbre than normal Arthur Harrison trombi.
Is this accurate? If so, does anyone know whether this was because they were revoiced when the organ was moved from the ballroom of Lord Glentanar? I must admit that I think that this is unlikely, since they still speak on a pressure of 15" w.g. (the same pressure as the Tuba).
Any information (including whether or not the CD is worth purchasing) will be gratefully received.
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====================I can never quite understand why the music of Reger is somehow linked to contemporary organs during his life. People quote the organ at the Riga Dom, Latvia, which was built before Reger first slithered his way to the breast. As Karl Straube was involved in the design of the original Steinmeyer at Passau, it may well have been closer to what he and Reger had in mind musically.
MM
Well, surely there would be little point in quoting instruments which were constructed after he had drunk himself to death at the age of forty-three!
That is, unless we are talking about Janet Reger - not Max....
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Indeed. Insofar as the suitabilty of swell reeds is concerned, for the lighter colouring of the flue-work, I find a good Hautbois indispensable. Next would come a really good Trumpet; (I generally prefer this to a Cornopean, but of course, it depends on the voicing of the individual ranks). In fact, an Arthur Harrison Swell Trumpet is often ideal - it has the requisite body, but with some fire and life, too. After this, I would wish for a good 16p reed, possibly a Double Trumpet. This should, of course, be a separate rank, ideally smaller-scaled than the unison and not too thick in the bass - too much weight there leads to an unpleasantly muddy effect and renders the stop much less useful for growly verses in the Psalms, for example!
I have often wondered why builders transposed a perfectly good Hautbois (or Oboe) to 16p, merely to gain some sub-unison tone on the clavier. Such ranks are generally too thin and quiet really to be successful and it is then usually impossible to use it at unison pitch to colour the foundation stops.
Whilst the 4p reed - Clarion - comes last, I am firmly of the opinion that it is a vital ingredient in the full swell effect. Ideally it should be almost as loud as the unison rank, but kept quite bright in timbre.
Naturally, people will differ - this is one of the interesting points about the organ. There is almost always merit in every scheme. The difference challenges our inventiveness.
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Thank you!
I await further developments with interest.
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Well, quite.
For a year or so, I did learn on an organ which possessed (barely) a pneumatic action so sluggish that, had it been a car, one would have needed to give three weeks' notice in writing before overtaking another vehicle.
Now that is pointless.
I still maintain that there are just as many problems with mechanical action, albeit of a different nature. There was, for example, an organ somewhere in the southern hemisphere the action of which was so heavy that, upon being confronted with it, Marcel Dupré immediately changed his published programme.
I still find little joy in an organ (of whatever age) which leaves shoulders, wrists and fingers stiff and sore after playing, say, the final movement of Vierne Symphonie 6me.
But as we say, each to his own...
Furthermore, what about all those lovely octave couplers? All those wonderful, ethereal effects! (It is worth remembering that Coventry added a number of octave couplers in the late 1980s and Gloucester added a Sub Octave to the Swell division at the recent restoration.)
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To return to the subject - is anyone out there able to enlighten me on exactly how organ builders (of either kind) have apparently solved the problem of tuning discrepancies when there are instruments with an entire department (for example) in which the sound is produced digitally.
Someone has suggested that a temperature sensor has been placed above the soundboards and this, in turn, communicates to the digital part of the organ. Well, all-right; but, what happens next - are the electronics now so advanced that this can introduce slight variations in the pitch of individual ranks of the toaster part?
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I guess his real contribution was in producing a RELIABLE action, using horseshoe magnets, and one which proved to have superb response and repetition.Should I take my own life now, or leave it 'til later?
MM
Well, except that it was not reliable! H-J notoriously used rubber-cloth as a substitute for leather in the moving parts of the action; the result being that the actions lasted for a few years only (c.f. Worcester Cathedral). I am aware that the McEwan Hall, Edinburgh action lasted considerably longer. However the action used regularly to emit bright blue sparks. Te repetition and speed of the contacts was also somewhat arbitrary by the end of its life.
So, MM, you proboably do not need to turn your thoughts towards self-slaughter - just find an un-restored H-J, switch on and touch the keys - at the very least, you will save on barber's fees for about a year....
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This is what I do: there are ext. and borrowing only for the Pedal, never ona manual.
You have three mixtures, not two. The "Plein-jeu" is a quint mixture intended for
a quiet, silvery Diapason chorus (and fully british in charachter).
The Diapasons to be cone-tuned, like the overblowing Flutes.
The Scharff is the bridge between this chorus and the Trombas, while the Swell's progression harmonique is there to build a Full-Swell with the reeds.
Best wishes,
Pierre Lauwers.
I am sorry, I missed one - but since when have organists been proficient at counting?!
Holy Trinity Church, Hull
in General discussion
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I certainly agree with you regarding your point on sermons.
However, this post seems to be a non sequitur - has it been displaced?