pcnd5584

OK, I have found what I was looking for: At Notre-Dame, Paris, in 1868 the order of the claviers was as follows (bottom: I, top: V): I. Grand-Choeur II. Grand-Orgue III. Bombarde IV. Positif V. Recit-Expressif Subsequent to 1932 (when work was carried out by the succesors to C-C, who later became the firm of Beuchet-Debierre*), the order of the manuals was as follows: I. Grand-Orgue II. Positif III. Recit-Expressif IV. Solo (formerly 'Bombarde') V. Grand-Choeur This arrangement is that which currently exists on the new console, post-1992. It is interesting to note that at the time of the 1868 re-build by C-C, only two tirasses were provided: Tirasse Grand-Choeur and Tirasse Grand-Orgue. In 1932, at third, Tirasse Recit was fitted. I read once, somewhere, that originally at Ste. Clothilde, C-C did not provide a Tirasse Recit (apparently specifications listing one are supposedly inaccurate). This would certainly explain the redundant doubling of the pedal part on the lower part of the left-hand stave in, for example, Franck's 1re Choral. * The firm of Debierre originally traded from Nantes. Hope this helps.

In reply to Anthony Poole's comment earlier, I don't think the old C-C console at Notre-Dame would have helped much, because Vierne had the order of the manuals changed there, too. Prior to that, I think the Recit-Expressif was played from the top (fifth) manual, and I think the GC was played from the bottom, but I cannot remember for sure. Actually the old console is still accessible, in the Musee de N-D, across the street (north side). I took some pictures of it, whilst my girlfriend distracted the security guard (please don't ask how....). It was not in a good state of repair, it has to be said. (The console, not the security guard.)

Yes, I can also confirm that this is the case, having been up in the loft and heard the instrument a few times. The mixtures have been reconstructed as listed above, together with the interesting idea of being able to annul the 17th rank if desired (as mentioned). Furthermore, as well as removing the Boisseau Fourniture and Cymbale on the Recit-Expressif, there is now a blank drawstop on the Recit jamb, together with an empty space. Since the console was largely new in 1992, this seems odd. Personally, I do miss the Recit mixtures - there is now only a cornet. No longer can you hear the wonderful brilliance as is evident from the many Cochereau recordings. (It is interesting to note that Vierne wished to add chorus mixtres to the Recit at Notre-Dame.) The tutti is now very reed-dominated and thicker than before - not necessarily a good thing! However, it is still a truly wonderful instrument. Do go and hear it, if you get the opportunity.

Interesting... Actually much of that 'unique symphonic character' was preserved in the 1975 re-build (and probably not merely for financial reasons). I was thinking more of the GO and Pedal chorus reeds, which I was happy to call 'continental', as opposed to 'loud and brash'; but, each to his own.... Personally I preferred them to the usual heavy and opaque Arthur Harrison Trombe - which also tended to obliterate much of the rest, albeit in a slightly different way. The Horn Quint - surely you can find a more worthy rank, in order to lament its passing? I suspect that it was used about as much, during its life, as the mechanical action console is at Christchurch Priory, Dorset. (Basically only for tuning, in case you are wondering.)

Actually, I really liked the Ely Cathedral organ in its 1970s incarnation. It was the one place in the country you could go to hear Langlais' or Vierne's Messe Solennelle and it would sound as if you were in Notre-Dame. The organ was so alive. Now it just sounds rather ordinary again. (It also managed to accompany Stanford and Howells perfectly well to my ears, for the record.) I personally do not see the harm in one or two cathedral organs being given a more continental flavour. I am aware that the French do not attempt generally to ape our instruments, but I can see no problem in the UK having a few examples with a more European flavour. There are certainly some more extreme types than that formerly at Ely, the basically romantic nature of which was respected in the 1970s re-build. Certainly, French repertiore played there sounded convincing - rather more so than at Winchester or Ripon, for example. Surely it is a good thing to have a variety of instruments? There are plenty of bad examples around. (How about the new thing at St. Mary the Virgin, Oxford? No swell box, no registration aids, a paucity of foundation stops....) I am sure it is very nice if all you want to do is play renaissance or baroque music, but for accompanying Evensong, as far as I am concerned, it was about as much use as a chocolate chastity belt....

No, as far as I know, the Positif case at St. Sernin contains the Positif Orgue - the console is en fenetre. A similar layout exists at St. Etienne, Caen (which I have played on occasion). The order of the manuals here is also: I - GO II - Positif III- Recit Expressif Hope this helps

That is a new idea.... Surely the length of the reverberation period is governed by such things as the type of stone used, the size and shape of the building, the area occupied by glass and the ambient air temperature, etc. It is extremely unlikely that it would be affected purely by whether or not the organ in the building was a romantic or a classical instrument. Four seconds is a long time in terms of resonance. I have an old recording of the 1920s H&H and whilst I appreciate that the sound quality and the technical limitations of the recording equipment available at the time would have an effect on the appreciable resonance, I do not believe that the reverberation period was anything like ten seconds. Any physicists out there?

As I believe I have mentioned, no alterations were made to the voicing of the Downes instrument, save for the one G.O. flue. The pedal 32ft. harmonics (which John Compton used extensively in a not-too-dissimilar manner) actually work quite well in the building, and certainly do a passable job of compensating for a 32ft. flue. (Well, they didn't have to saw it up, did they?) Aside from the electrical devices of the Swell Sub Octave and the Pedal Divide, there were no further additions or alterations - everything else sounds the same as it did when HN&B left it, in 1971. (The removal of part of the roof has actually improved the sound - prior to this, the G.O. reeds in particular were somewhat throttled) I can see no harm in having one British cathedral organ which speaks with a Gallic accent. (It's not that bad an imitation - having heard and played many French instruments there are a fair number of mediocre examples available there, too.) Still, I understand that to each is given a perception of beauty (anyone know Anna Kournikova's mobile number....?)

*bump* Grrrrrr....

I would endorse the eminently sensible and practical points made by Michael Cox. In addition, with careful work and study, it may well be possible to improve one's pedal technique to the extent that the playing would be quite accurate and relatively effortless, regardless of whether the pedal board were of the continental or Anglo-U.S. form. I have found that to be the case when playing on French, German, Dutch and Norwegian instruments. Then again, the pedal boards of the H&H instruments at Coventry and Exeter cathedrals are incredibly comfortable. However, whilst I found the pedal board of the Rieger organ at St. Marylebone Church uncomfortable, the pedal board of the Rieger at Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford is extremely comfortable (I also greatly prefer the sound of the Christ Church instrument) - God knows why this should be the case. (comfort, not sound...) Anyone know why this might be the case, or am I just weird??

I was interested to hear the replies re-Gloucester. As far as I am aware, the sound of the tutti has not been changed. The only re-voicing or re-balancing was to one soft G.O. foundation stop. The instrument, to my ears, makes a rich, thrilling, clear and above all, musical sound. Apparently, many genuine music lovers used to find the old organ (in its H&H incarnation) oppressive and unmusical, particularly when played loudly. In addition, we do have lots of cathedral organs which are very 'English' in sound (e.g.: Bristol, Truro, Exeter, Ripon, Lichfield, Peterborough, etc, etc). Gloucester does at least enable one to hear a more continental sound. With this in mind, it is interesting to compare the sound of Gloucester with the Gonzales instrument at Chartres Cathedral - Gloucester definitely sounds superior to me (a previous Titulaire also concurred with this). Incidentally, the removal of part of the roof of the case was, I believe, undertaken before the Nicholson rebuild- because I was made aware of the fact one winter's evening, and I am certain that this was before 1999. I have also played several services at Gloucester, and found that with careful choice, it is perfectly possible to accompany Howells, Stanford, et al, quite effectively. There are actually two quiet solo reeds (three if you like a Vox Humana...). The Choir Cremona is quite acceptable - the acoustic giving it a little more body and smoothness, and the Swell Hautboy, which is, of course, under expression. There are at least two flutes 8 which are quiet enough to accompany this stop! Finally, I only made the reverberation period about six seconds in the empty cathedral (c.f. CT Worcester) - ten is a long time: St. Pauls is probably no longer that this! Of Canterbury, I know little, but I must admit I would not have parted with the old (Willis 1968) Choir and Solo organs for anything less than apartments in Florida and Paris....

Oh Pierre Schyven - brilliant!! I had the privilege of playing for two Masses at Antwerp Cathedral a few years ago, due to the kindness of the Titulaire (Stanislas Deriemaeker) IT WAS ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL!! I would love to play that superb instrument again. I remember that it only had the French-type ventils to control 4 claviers and pedals, with reeds and the GO Barker machine separate. Even so, I had no problems controlling the organ, even improvising the organ parts of the Mass. I found it an exhilarating experience. Regards

I am not sure I would agree with C T Worcester. Having played the Gloucester organ many times I think that the acoustic is perfect. However, I realise, too that 'beauty is in the eye (ear)...' et al. The GO reeds to my ears are also superb. Yes, they could be considered 'rough' if compared to Ripon's glorious Trombi or the Hill Posaunes at Lichfield, but to me they sound just right in the building. That GO Spitzflute is another matter, though (of course it wasn't revoiced at the last rebuild...lol) Adrian Gunning's remark re-octave couplers could be construed as misleading. The only octave coupler added was a Sub Octave to the Swell - I think perceived to be most useful in French music, or improvising quietly on the mild strings. It did help the overall gravitas of the tutti, particularly since there is no 32' flue and the new 32' reed (added in 1999) is not exactly over-powerful. As far as the RFH flue work is concerned, surely some of the influence is Dutch, not German. Downes had certainly been to Holland before drawing up the scheme. (I know that subsequent revisions pruned the excess of Quintadenas and some of the other more obvious Dutch points.) I used to go to the 'Wednesdays (at least, I think it was on a Wenesday) at 5.55' at the RFH and heard and saw loads of players, including Jean Langlais; I quite liked the sound of the organ, although some resonance would have been good. It may, dare I say, have been a slight mis-calculation on the part of Downes with regard to the perceived harshness of some of the chorus reeds - certainly all the French examples he heard before drawing up the scheme all spoke in resonant Gothic churches. I had also heard that Louis Eugene-Rochesson was not necessarily the best reed voicer in France, at the time. Interestingly, I understand that some of the big reeds at St. Paul's Cathedral can sound a little raucous at close quaters (on a voicing-machine) - I do not mean merely 'loud' - but presumably Willis knew perfectly well that, in that cavernous acoustic the edginess was necessary in order to cut throught the echo, as it were. However, if you want low pressure English chorus reeds, then you can do no better than go to Chichester Cathedral and hear the superb reconstruction/restoration of the Hill/Hele organ by Manders (1986). Having played for many services there, I think that this instrument fits the building like a glove, is perfect for the accompaniment of the choral services and a joy to play. The console is so elegant!

This looks to be an interesting subject. Although only having heard the instrument at St. Albans Abbey through the medium of broadcasts and recordings, it always sounds fantastic - I hope one day to hear it live in the building. The projected additions seem to make sense, too. Downes seemed unduly reticent to specify 32' reeds for rebuilds in which he was consultant (e.g.: Buckfast, St. Albans and Paisley abbeys, Gloucester Cathedral, Brompton Oratory and Fairfield Halls). I realise that to include this stop is not always advisable - for reasons of space or acoustics for example. However, it is interesting that David Briggs chose to add such a rank at Gloucester in 1999 and that Andrew Lucas is now considering the same course at St. Albans. I have always (well, for a long time) wondered what the Choir Flauto Traverso 8' sounds like at St. Albans. Can Mr. Lucas confirm whether or not it is as drop-dead gorgeous as the Harmonic Flute 8' on the Choir at Coventry? (I have long considered this stop to be the sexiest sound I have ever heard - a sort of audible Angelina Jolie - however it is just possible that I have a diseased imagination.)

Does anyone know if the occasional vague rumour I have heard about a possible rebuild at Canterbury Cathedral has any substance, please? I also still wonder what happened to their 32ft. pedal flue - it does not appear on the current stop list. One still hears the occasional rumble about the Gloucester one - particularly after the cathedral's maintenance staff sawed it up in situ, but I don't think I ever heard anyone question the disappearance of the one at Canterbury. Presumably it was ineffective, although I think personally I would have missed not even having a stopped 16ft. I wonder, too, if Ralph Downes was possibly over-hasty when he had the Gloucester 32ft. "thrown out for the irrelevance it was" and when he said that the 16ft. Bishop Flute (actually 13ft. longest pipe!) more than compensated for the lack of a 32ft. I particularly like the sound of etherial strings with (whisper it) octave couplers, being underpinned with a full-length 32p flue - an effect not possible simply by relying upon the expedient of a monster-scaled Open Wood! If the acoustic environment of the building creates the illusion of unity of sound-source, (as Gloucester did) then surely there is no problem. In any case, there were already two other pedal stops outside the case: the Flute and the Sub Bass (upside-down) so the question of the entire instrument being within the case was not strictly accurate. I would, however say that I find the Gloucester organ one of the most exciting and stimulating instruments in the UK. Any thoughts?

I have found most of the continental pedalboards which I have played very comfortable, within a few minutes. In fact, they are all usually more comfortable than the pedalboard of my own church instrument, which is not aligned D under D - which I presume, is an error. (Ped. compass 32n; manuals 3x 61n, btw). The most comfortable pedalboards I have played in this country are the H&H ones at Exeter and Coventry cathedrals - they just inspire one not to make too many mistakes....

I have to say that I would agree with Stewartt - but would go further and say that I prefer to accompany the Swell Oboe with a softish flute - personally, I think that a Dulciana is too similar in timbre to differentiate from an oboe. Actually, I don't think I explained that very well, so I hope people know what I mean. Certainly, I had no compunction about substituting the Dulciana (only used in carelessness) on my church organ for a really interesting Gamba, which I use in literally every service. I also agree with nfortin - I too, have played the odd service at Bath and although I think that it is a superb instrument, the GO Gamba just sounds like a small diapason, surely it should have some string tone?

Yes, I see your point about drawing the three flues on the GO. I actually quite like keener strings on the Swell (but not in the H-J sense of 'keen'). I forgot to mention that I would include mechanical stop action, too. I would be quite happy to play an organ of this size which possessed no registration aids - perhaps just hitch-down couplers. I would also prefer a reversed console, again in the C-C manner, I think it is much more practical than always having to look in a mirror or over your shoulder and with this number of stops, seeing over the top should not be a problem.

Quote Mark Wimpress (sorry, can't seem to include quotes without sending my reply into the ether....) I was interested to read your comments. I know of two high-pitched tierce mixtures in England, the H&H at St. Alban's and the HN&B/Nicholson at Gloucester - I have, however, only played Gloucester (many times) and I must admit that I would sooner complete the Swell reed chorus with a Clarion 4'. Regarding the Pedal 32' harmonics at N-D, Paris, having heard them on several occasions from downstairs and upstairs (leaning against the case!) they are indeed wonderful, still and to my ears, are more effective than the 32' Principal. I think that although the restoration at N-D has been done well, it is perhaps a pity that both chorus mixtures were removed from the Recit - the blank drawstop looks odd, too. Just a thought.

Sorry, I replied and only managed to post your quote - let's try again... Yes, I did wonder about changing the GO and Swell 8+4 flutes, but I often like a really good open flute on an unenclosed chest, particularly for solos. If I did though, I would also omit the Gambe 8 from the GO and substitute a Viole de Gambe 8 and a Voix Celestes 8 for the present mild strings - but taking the Celeste down to CC, which I believe C-C always did. What do you think? Let's see if I can figure out how to post this one correctly... hmmm. God, I've edited twice - wish I could type better than a panda.

I am fairly new, here, but this seems to be an interesting point. Small organs are surely much more difficult successfully to design than larger instruments. Mr. Mander also makes the valid point that it is difficult to conceive such a scheme in a vacuum. So, for the record, my scheme is to be placed in a church seating about 200-250 with little appreciable resonance (but no carpet) with standard hymnody and the odd anthem as its accompanimental duties, but being presided over by a fairly competent organist. PEDAL ORGAN Sub Bass 16' Violoncello 8' Open Flute 4' Posaune 16' (possibly wood) Great to Pedal Swell to Pedal GREAT ORGAN Quintatön 16' Open Diapason 8' Wald Flute 8' Gamba 8' Octave 4' Harmonic Flute 4' Fifteenth 2' Furniture (19, 22, 26, 29) IV Cremona 8' (CC) Swell to Great SWELL ORGAN Open Diapason 8' Stopped Diapason 8' Salicional 8' Vox Angelica 8' (flat) Gemshorn 4' (conical, not just slotted) Mixture (15, 22, 26) III Hautboy 8' Trumpet 8' Sub Octave Tremulant I am aware that it contains twenty-one stops - I will decide what to leave out and get back later. Incidentally, the action would be totally mechanical - Manders included a Sub Octave on the Solo at Chichester, which is perfectly usable, even with the tutti, so I decided that it would work, here. Also, because I am new, and not used to all the buttons yet, I see I managed to post an earlier truncated version, with no speaking stops at all. I suppose that it might prove to be a suitable vehicle for some of the works of John Cage.

I was interested to read the post concerning Worcester Cathedral. I had the pleasure of playing the organ of Worcester Cathedral last Summer, for several services. Personally, I found the experience wonderful. Everything worked perfectly well (apart from the Swell Gedeckt, which had been temporarily disconnected). The instrument was also in tune. I used just about every stop available (not necessarily at the same time...) and found everything quite satisfactory. The action seemed reasonably prompt and the H&H console was exceedingly comfortable. To my ears, the instrument produced the most glorious sounds, both loud and soft - those three full-length 32ft stops! I wonder; is it just possible that, if a quarter of the figure mentioned for the appeal (I heard £2,000,000) was spent on tidying-up the Hope-Jones/H&H instrument, that this could result in a rather nice instrument, which would be perfectly adequate for everything? It is, of course, possible that a Nave console and an enlarged Nave/Solo division might be desirable for use at the Three Choirs' Festival). I have had the privilege of playing at least half of the cathedral organs in this country and several others in continental Europe (Bonn and Bamberg cathedrals, Antwerp Cathedral, St. Eustache, Paris (I know, it's not a cathedral) and I remain totally unconvinced that the organ of Worcester Cathedral is musically inferior or not worth keeping in its present incarnation. I shall sit back and await the fall-out.