Clavecin
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Posts posted by Clavecin
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Hi Alastair,
I heard John Robinson (assistant at Canterbury) play this as his final piece at an opening recital in Dumfries in February.
Regards,
David
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Firstly the Tuba Magna lost its roundness in the 1977 work. It isn't the same stop it was, there is no other way of putting it.................The chorus reeds are more polite, the Pedal 32s have lost much of their crack
I gather that the Tuba Magna has been moved around somewhat.
Legend has it that when the organ was first installed (in the much smaller building) the Dean complained that it sounded much too loud, so it was relocated somewhere within the depths of the south chamber.
I'm fairly certain that its present position is at the bottom of the south transept case, speaking through square openings directly into the transept. I'm not sure whether David Wells or H&H moved it. Having sung in quite a few very large diocesan services over the last few years, it certainly leads congregational singing (as does the new central space diapason chorus which Bazuin has mentioned). But, I'm sad to say that I personally find this stop coarse and uneven, unlike the fine Tubas 16/8/4.
As for the 32s, the enclosed trombones 32 & 16 on the north side seem to have far more 'crack' than the bombarde rank.
DT
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'Light the blue touch paper, and retire to a safe distance.......'
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I would also mention the last section of Grand Pièce Symphonique as a piece that can outstay its welcome.
A CF addict!
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And to me it's surprising that the big open woods disappeared. Where are they? How is it that they were needed once, but not no more? Is it relevant that NR seemed to like scrapping open woods (Kendal, Liverpool Lady Chapel, and other places)?
Possibly the most remarkable thing about the Liverpool organ which many overlook is that it was designed for a building which did not yet exist. It was installed and voiced in a building which, at the time, was only a fraction of the size it is today. At the time of its installation only the Quire and east transept were built, it is a testament to Henry Willis 111's skill that very little has been altered to compensate for the vast increase in cubic area which organ now fills with sound.
Regarding the open woods (or open basses in 'Willis speak'), the larger of the 2 open woods was an extended rank from 32ft to 4ft if my memory serves me correctly, the smaller open wood was an independent 16ft stop. At the time of the H&H restoration it was considered that the upper registers of the larger open wood developed too much 'roll' in the space of the completed building so were removed leaving 2 independent open woods at 32ft on the south and 16ft on the north.
Conversely, some of the mixture work was altered to produce a greater impact in the space.
I wasn't aware that the chorus reeds were altered at all, but will stand corrected if someone can verify this.
Having heard how Ian Tracey feels about the Liverpool organ, I would be most surprised if there are any changes to the original materials. I couldn't imagine a safer incumbent for the Liverpool organ.
DT
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I see you can play it for 30 minutes for a mere £500!
If you want to treat yourself, you can play at Lincoln Cathedral for a tenth of the price!
DT
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Jennifer Bate at Beauvais:
Whole piece 12.32
Opens at 120 to 126 bpm
The 'chordal section at 138 to 144 bpm (I'm not counting bars after what happened with the Chorale No.2!)
From the section with the pauses onwards the performance becomes quite rhapsodical, with a stringendo in the section with the 'off beat' chords.
It's a convincing performance but a fair bit of the triplet figuration is lost in the acoustic.
The only other recording of Final I have is Arthur Wills' GCOS recording from Ely, but as I sold the turntable a few years ago, I can't play it!
I enjoy the Bate CF set; strangely the only piece which I have reservations about is GPS (which we discussed on another thread), it's the only one in which she doesn't sound in total control. There's a very bad edit in the central Allegro section, and this and other fast sections sound hurried - IMHO.
DT
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That F sharp section is difficult, and so are the last two pages, especially where the melody is in the Alto, played by the LH along with too many other notes for comfort!
If you hate the double sharps, wait until you get to Priere! Mind you, that at least is not going allegro at the time.
Glad someone of your stature finds this difficult, I was beginning to think that early Alzheimer's was setting in!
I haven't had a look at Priere yet but am very fond of it. When I've done that and Final I've got the lot under my belt.
DT
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Forgive me, but I'm slightly confused: Are the bar numbers the same in all editions?
In mine (Peters Edition, ed. Otto Barblan) the G minor section starts at bar 148, the F# pedal point to which I think you are referring starts at bar 246, and the whole piece contains 288 bars. Can somebody clarify, please? Thanks in advance.
Fortunately, I am able to practice regularly on the Ducroquet Cavaille-Coll of Aix Cathedral, so it's fairly easy to use Franck's given registrations.
Erm, yeah, sorry about that, I sort of miscounted.
However, the passage I mean is that prior to bar 246, as Vox Humana put it:
'The worst bit in the semiquavers that precede the pedal point is the four bars of descending figures accompanied by short chords in LH and pedal on the first and second beats.'
At present I am trying to put the finishing touches to 'Grande Piece Symphonique' which I have found quite a bit harder to learn than the rest of Franck's works for organ. It's not that the piece has any particular technical difficulties, it's just that my brain doesn't seem capable of working in F# major with a lot of accidentals and double sharps thrown in for good measure.
DT
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Does anyone know who will be succeeding Dr Spedding at Beverley?
DT
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Any other pointers?
A wonderful piece!
However, like many others by Cesar Franck, it does contain some very awkward moments.
I would identify these and start working on them first; very, very slowly.
In the section from 206 to 221 (the passage just before the long F# pedal point) the semiquavers are by far the most awkward, start learning this section now and memorise the falling patterns.
I have heard many performances come unstuck at this point, indeed I attended an opening rectial a few weeks ago in which the young organist who is the assistant at one of our premier Cathedrals and a 'rising star' blemished an otherwise flawless recital at this point.
Good luck,
DT
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It definitely had one. Alas the spec has been taken off the Cathedral website so can't check.
The present console on the screen is the 1957 one which used to be in the choir, the pre '57 console was placed in the nave and I remember from many visits in my youth that there were a number of discrepancies between the specifications on the 2 consoles. This old console has since been removed, I'm not sure exactly when.
I'd bet that the 'Cornet des Violes' appeared on the nave console.
DT
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There was disagreement about whether the Screen Organ should be re-instituted following the destruction of the former instrument during the Blitz. One factor being that an organ case in that location prevented an uninterrupted view of the length of the Cathedral, as can - in fairness - be seen from earlier photographs, elegant though Scott's case was. William Greer, Bishop of Manchester was, in the end asked to adjudicate and stated that it would go back "over his dead body."
Personally speaking, I would love to see a nice case back on the screen at Manchester, but considering the lack of height I couldn't see a screen organ containing very much and retaining a visually pleasing proportion.
Thinking of a couple of examples of new instruments which occupy screen locations in buildings of similar proportions, St. Mary the Virgin, Oxford is a small 2 manual but looks right for the size of the arch, Hexham Abbey is again 2 manuals but is almost twice the size of Oxford. In my opinion Hexham looks too big for the arch, Manchester certainly does not have the height to accommodate 16ft pipes like this.
In both these churches, the new instruments have paneled backs and the Quire has been abandoned as the place where the choir sings, with new stalls set up in the nave or under the crossing at Hexham.
I couldn't see Manchester abandoning their fine mediaeval choir stalls!
A further difficulty is the completely different style of each aspect of the Manchester Screen, Tudor paneling on the nave side, Gothic pinacles on the Quire side (also about 4 feet higher than the nave side!).
DT
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I only know the Manchester organ from a Howells CD on which it sounds very good!
I still have a Ryemuse EP made by Derek Cantrell on which he played the 1st movement of Bach's Trio No.1 in Eflat, the 1st movement of Mendelssohn's 1st Sonata in F minor, and the Lidon Sonata de Primo Tono; it inspired me to learn the 3 pieces and I used to think the organ sounded great. However, in the building although it accompanies very well and there is much of considerable beauty it doesn't really excite or thrill in the way that some of our Cathedral organs do, despite hearing it many, many times, and from different parts of the building.
As for the EP I couldn't tell whether it was the 'Tuba Magma' (as Paul Morley so nicely put it) or the 'Orchestral Tuba' in the Lidon.
Concerning the notorious big tuba, Manchester was the first Cathedral organ I ever played when at the age of 13 I played for Derek Cantrell as part of an audition for Chetham's. I played BWV 545 and Stanley's Trumpet Voluntary, DC said that I could use whatever I wanted, 'except the Tuba Magna', but the Orchestral Tuba sounded pretty good to a 13 year old. He did allow me to play a single note on it however, and said that it was much too loud and that he never used it.
DT
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Is the glorious Schulze at St Peter's Hindley still homeless?
Unfortunately, it is at present.
There have been negotiations which Bryan Hughes has conducted recently with a suitable UK venue, but it would be imprudent to say more at the present time.
He also told me that Schulze's home town of Paulinzella would welcome it back and had a suitable location for it.
DT
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The 80s proposal had a lovely David Graebe case on the screen. But thank goodness it wasn't built.
Hope they keep the French Horns...
...and the two curtain shakers in the Jesus Chapel.
Oh, and the Solo string chorus up to Cornet des Violes.
And the clarinet.
Oh and the lovely Swell reeds (both great and small).
Come to think about it, can't they just replace the dreadful Great chorus and leave the rest alone? I believe some tweaking to the upperwork was done in the 90s but it still lacks character.
We go to Choral Evensongs here regularly and I'm rather inclined to agree with you.
I would scrap the present Great and Choir and create new within a case on the screen: Great speaking into the nave, unenclosed Choir speaking into the stalls, also put the fine Solo Tuba in the case and any Pedal material that would fit. Keep the Swell as it is, move the Solo (including the old choir Clarinet) into the space vacated by the present Great. Move the pedal Ophicleide rank into the space vacated by the present Choir or Solo and lighten it up a bit.
DT
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The 80s proposal had a lovely David Graebe case on the screen. But thank goodness it wasn't built.
Hope they keep the French Horns...
...and the two curtain shakers in the Jesus Chapel.
Oh, and the Solo string chorus up to Cornet des Violes.
And the clarinet.
Oh and the lovely Swell reeds (both great and small).
Come to think about it, can't they just replace the dreadful Great chorus and leave the rest alone? I believe some tweaking to the upperwork was done in the 90s but it still lacks character.
We go to Choral Evensongs here regularly and I'm rather inclined to agree with you.
I would scrap the present Great and Choir and create new within a case on the screen: Great speaking into the nave, unenclosed Choir speaking into the stalls, also put the fine Solo Tuba in the case and any Pedal material that would fit. Keep the Swell as it is, move the Solo (including the old choir Clarinet) into the space vacated by the present Great. Move the pedal Ophicleide rank into the space vacated by the present Choir or Solo and lighten it up a bit.
DT
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Last night we attended a performance of the 'St. John Passion' at Manchester Cathedral and very good it was too.
The Dean opened the concert by welcoming everyone and announced that the priority music development for 2009 was to be a 'new organ'.
I am aware from conversations with members of the resident team over the last 6 months that:
1. Paul Hale has been on site and surveyed all the current organ material.
2. A number of builders have been asked to submit proposals (sorry, can't quite remember all the names which were quoted)
3. The new instrument would be (to some extent) accommodated within a new case on the screen.
Let's hope these plans get further than those made during Gordon Stewart's tenure during the '80s, when it was proposed to have a 'stock' 3 manual Walker on the screen. I gather that funds were availably at the time, but got diverted into other things.
It certainly will be lovely to see a fine case back on the screen, the present aspect viewed from the nave is not pleasant.
DT
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It was a loaf - the very same one Simon Johnson was standing holding outside earlier!
Yes, and there's also a shaving mirror to the right of the keyboards. I think that Simon's actually camping out in there.
Anyway, I think you were all fooled, it's not a proper console it's a toaster!
DT
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I experienced the one in S. Gervais in Paris last month - to couple the 16'Bombarde and its manual down for a 'tres grands jeux' - 'worked like a dream - 'fantastic noise and and the key action was comfortable too - left there alone with a couple of vans I would have gladly taken it all home.
I've played 2 organs with these, both in France, and both by Pascal Quoirin.
A restoration at the Collegiale Notre-Dame at Villefranche de Rouergue, and a new instrument at the Cathedrale de Carpentras.
Both organs I would have loved to take home, the Villefranche organ made a fantastic sound, despite being rather idiosyncratic.
Anyway AJJ, how about posting a write-up about the Organ Club week in Paris, I'm sure many members would be fascinated, I would for one!
DT
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HNB also used an extension mixture on some small instruments. I never analysed one, but if I recall correctly it consisted of two sets of pipes, two ranks, 19,22 on one set and 15,19 on the other
This may well have been what you are describing, a 1964 HNB extension organ on which I spent many happy hour during my early teens at Heptonstall Church.
If I remember correctly, although this was an extension organ, the Great 8/4/2 Diapasons were not an 84 pipe rank but were partially independent around the middle octaves.
During the 60s I found this little HNB and the 3 Walker Positives I occasionally played to be like a breath of fresh air compared to most local organs to which I had access. In terms of promptness of speech, response to touch, brightness and clarity of voicing, the ablity to register (with care) 2 contrasting choruses, and comfortable consoles - especially for someone who played a lot of Bach.
DT
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I am glad David mentioned Walker Positifs. I recently acquired one (through ebay) and installed it in a church near here that has never previously had the benefit of real pipes. Considering the small amount of space these little organs take up, and the limited number of pipes (somewhere between 250 and 270, I believe) the result is very effective indeed.
Probably the best feature of Walker Positifs was that they featured a nicely scaled fully independent 3 rank mixture, even on (possibly) the smallest 3 rank jobs. I'm thinking of a 1958 one in a church in Rochdale which I have agreed to play in a months time. Another feature in the smallest jobs was a crescendo pedal instead of pistons. The largest I ever played was a 3 man. in Grimsby with about 8 ranks.
DT
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The Corona Division, presumably.
Members of a certain age might be remembering a bottle of fizzy pop at this point!
DT
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The Ampleforth organ is also one of my favourites as is the abbey and its surroundings. I've experienced it on many occasions when attending mass and have never found it's timbre less than inspirational.
It's good to hear that some members have personal experience of this organ.
One of the interesting facts about this instrument is that when Walkers rebuilt York Minster in 1960 they removed the larger of the two Open Wood ranks from the Pedal, the bottom octave of which was stoppered and became the bottom octave of the 32 at Ampleforth.
When you look at the size of the 2 cases at either side of the south transept at Ampleforth, it's difficult to imagine how so much organ has been fitted in, this is possibly one of the reasons for the amount of extension and borrowing, although of course, during the 60s Walkers stock-in-trade instruments were the 'Positive' extension organs produced in great number, very many of which are still going strong today.
However, the open location and superb acoustics appear to compensate for any over-crowding of the pipework and chorus deficiencies caused by extension.
To a certain extent this puts me in mind of Downside Abbey, an instrument entirely based on extension which according to popular opinion, sounds much better than it ought to, due to location and acoustic. But, as I haven't heard Downside in the building, I wouldn't dream of offering a personal opinion.
DT
Liverpool Cathedral Organ Appeal
in The Organ
Posted
My wife and I attended David Poulter's Bank Holiday recital today.
We picked up some literature about the restoration project, it didn't go into great detail, but listed some of the costings.
I quote from the document:
'As a matter of urgency immediate renovation work and re-voicing of the reeds will cost in the region of £90.000 and £95.000 respectively. A further £90.000 will then be required for less urgent general renovation work, together with a massive £200.000 for major cleaning, which has not been undertaken for some thirty years. An additional £86.000 would allow us to realise the Echo Organ, promised on the original specification'
Here is the spec. of the Echo Organ as originally planned:
Salicional 16 pedal
Echo Bass 16 pedal
Fugara 8 pedal
Dulzian 16 pedal
Quintaton 16
Echo Diapason 8
Cor de nuit 8
Carillon 8 TC
Flauto Amabile 8
Mute Viole 8
Aeoline Celeste 8 F
Celestina 4
Fern Flote 4
Rohr Nasat 2 2/3
Flautina 2
Harmonica Aetheria III 10.12.15
Chalumeau 16
Trompette 8
Cor Hamonique 8
Musett 8
Hautbois d'Amour 8
Voix Humaine 8
Hautbois Octaviante 4
Interesting, I wonder where they would site the division and if it would be anything like the original plan.
DT