Alsa
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Posts posted by Alsa
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Look in the Laukhuff catalogue. There is a very neat brass strip light which is wide and gives a very clear light from LEDs. Has been used by H&H, amongst others, at Westminster Central
Hall and St Albans.
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See this organ: http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N04640
A lovely musical instrument.
Great Mixture CC 12.15.22 (sic) ; mid c 8.12.15; treble f sharp 1.8.8
The Great Fifteenth also broke back in the top octave to 4' pitch. This was changed in the 1960s when J.W.Walker replaced them so that it now continues unbroken.
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"I personally find the Sw III in St Pauls quite strong"
(Quote)
Which was named "Cornet" !
Pierre
I checked this out in the St Paul's book and apparently it was originally called Echo Cornet by Father Willis.
Do you think it was a Dulciana Cornet, then? I wonder ... has another one bitten the dust?
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So are we agreed that if we come across an Unda Maris in Britain we can reasonably expect it to be flute toned? If so, how do these stops compare with American Flûtes célestes? The latter I find a very useful colour, albeit not one I would want to use every day.
Now if you want a really interesting example of a flute celeste then see this:
http://www.organstops.org/l/Ludwigtone.html
I have only encountered one example of this stop and it was very beautiful indeed.
I find a lot of the standard American (Skinner inspired) Flauto Dolce and Flute Celestes rather insipid and sickly in effect - reminscent of the organ music you'd hear in a funeral scene in an American TV series from the 1960s and 70s (and you'll hear this sound reproduced quite faithfully on many an Allen or Rodgers electronic instrument in this country).
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You are welcome, Alsa, no problem, I do not fear any "rudeness",
the ideas and the facts are what count, not the Egos.
I am interested with the original design, mainly, because it was extremely
interesting, innovative. This organ should have been a milestone in the
History of the organ, like Görlitz or Saint Denis were.
That between the time of its construction and its erection, several years elapsed,
and that in the meantime, Mr Dupont, Durand or Smith, wanted changes to be made
because the "repertoire" changed, is for me Nebensache, quite unimportant
local stories; I am an historian, not a player involved in the competition between the players
in the context of a dedicated style/ School of playing.
And this organ is one of those which really should be returned to their original design,
like Alkmaar was during the last restoration, like *one certain Schulze organ in Britain*,
like *one certain somewhat to the west* should have been, among others.
Hence a certain stubborness on my behalf -no doubt-. But it is my job to be stubborn
at times !
Pierre
Do you really think that the specification changed because the repertoire changed at that time. I'm not so certain. I suspect that the specification was drawn up in the abstract and that when it came to building it practical issues came to the fore - principally about using the organ in the services, accompanying a choir and a large congregation in that vast space in the same service on the same instrument, and more than likely a huge amount of personal preference of the organist an organ builder.
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So are we agreed that if we come across an Unda Maris in Britain we can reasonably expect it to be flute toned? If so, how do these stops compare with American Flûtes célestes? The latter I find a very useful colour, albeit not one I would want to use every day.
Actually I am pretty certain that the majority of Unda Maris stops I have encountered have either been flat tuned Salicionals, Aeolinas, Dulcianas or Dolces! (it's just that the Liverpool Cathedral one is an example of a flute celeste). There is no rule - you get what you find.
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Rupp gave the Specifications as it was intended.
The organ was erected after WWI, already in a modified state.
I have the Sumner as well (1948-52), the Rupp is 1929,
in which he used pre-1914 Data.
The fact the D.M. is enclosed, and the rest of the Chorus not, does not
mean they were not intended to be used togheter.
See Audsley !
If the two sections are wide apart, this is something the specifications writer
did not know about, then, so obvious is the intent to provide a complete
Dulciana chorus.
As for the Unda-Maris, maybe Mr Wyld knows ?
Pierre
Pierre, please forgive me if I seem to be a bit rude, but I think you are theorising too much. Whatever was intended (whatever 'intended' means) in the process of building the organ, the version you give is not how it was eventually built. Surely one can only assume, quite reasonably I would have thought, that they considered it all carefully over a period of time in the process of designing the organ and came up with something that was different from the version you describe.
So by the time the organ was completed in the early 1920s the theoretical Unda Maris (which may well have been intended at first to be a Dulciana) had become a flute celeste, and the Mixture stop was no longer located with the Dulciana chorus but included with the enclosed section, which is high up inside the north case.
You mention in one of your posts that the organ has been changed. And now you have said that the organ was built in a modified state. Surely the latter statement merely suggests that the specification of the organ evolved over a period of time, before and probably whilst it was being built.
I took your statement that the organ has been changed to mean that since these stops in the choir organ were changed at a later date (after it was completed in the 1920s), but I honesly believe that this is not the case. The design may have evolved but I do believe that what you have stated is untrue. I feel that it is important to correct that.
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Here is the complete specifications of the Choir organ clavier, first manual,
as given by Emil Rupp, same order, same numbers:
1 Contra-Dulciana 16'
2 Contra-Gamba 16'
3 Open Diapason 8'
4 Violin Diapason 8'
5 Rohrflute 8'
6 Claribelflute 8'
7 Gamba 8'
8 Dulciana 8'
9 Unda-Maris 8' from F
10 Flute ouverte 4'
11 Suabe-Flute 4'
12 Gambette 4'
13 Dulcet 4'
14 Flageolet 2'
15 Dulciana 2'
16 Dulciana Mixture 5r
17 Bass-Clarionet 16'
18 Double Vox humana 16'
19 Corno di Bassetto 8'
20 Cor anglais 8'
21 Vox humana 8'
22 Trumpet (orchestral) 8'
23 Clarion 4'
Pierre
But Pierre you appear to be relying on an inaccurate source. The published specification in Sumner (1952 edition) gives:
Choir Organ (23 stops) Partially enclosed
Choir (unenclosed section)
Contra Dulciana 16
Open Diapason 8
Rohr Flöte 8
Dulciana 8
Flute Ouverte 4
Dulcet 4
Dulcina 2
Choir (enclosed)
Contra Viola 16
Violin Diapason 8
Viola 8
Claribel Flute 8
Unda Maris 8 (down to FF)
Octave Viola 4
Suabe Flöte 4
Octavin 2
Dulciana Mixture (10.12.17.19.22)
Bass Clarinet 16
Baryton 16
Corno di Bassetto 8
Cor Anglais 8
Vox Humana 8
Trumpette 8 (harmonic)
Clarion 4 (harmonic)
Tremulant
In 1959/60 Willis removed the unenclosed section and replaced it with:
Choir - Positive
Gedact 8
Spitz principal 4
Nasât 2 2/3
Coppel 2
Terz 1 3/5
Spitzflöte 1
Cimbel (29.33.36)
I hope that this makes things clearer.
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The organ has been changed... I gave the data Rupp provided in his book.
A "good" reason to remove the Dulcianas ? Probably not "better" than 150 years ago,
when Cornets were replaced with Gambas. There can obtain no "good" reasons
to damage works of arts. Or should I want the "Joconde" rebuilt with modern cloths ?
This has all to do with Ego matters...
Pierre
Unfortunately your source seems to have been inaccurate. You would probably have done better to find out the information from the cathedral or the organ builder. There is no reason for anyone to believe that the Unda Maris and Dulciana Mixture have been altered, physically or in purpose, since the organ was built. They were always in the enclosed section and my understanding is that the Unda Maris has always been a flute stop.
You are probably right - it may well be a shame that the beloved Dulcianas were taken away and replaced with other stops. But perhaps the problem was insufficient room - room for both sets of pipes and room for the stop knobs and mechanisms associated with them. And perhaps these stops were barely, if ever, used. The work was done by the original organ builders and the organist at the time had known the instrument for a long time. Or perhaps we know better?
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Flute. It's like a soft purr, very dark, with slow beats.
R
Yes, that's a fantastic description.
Pierre's post about the Liverpool Dulcianas is a little bit misleading because the Unda Maris is a flute rank. Like the Dulciana Mixture it is in the enclosed section (of the Choir) and they both belong with the other enclosed stops. I doubt that either was envisaged to be part of a chorus with the unenclosed Choir section and even less likely on a practical level, given the physical separation of the two sections. As the Dulcianas were removed fifty years ago I am left wondering exactly who can say how effective they were, with any accuracy anyway. I also wonder why they were replaced with different kinds of stops altogether? There was probably a good reason at the time.
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Sorry, Pierre, but that's utter twaddle! Every organist knows that a Dulcet is a 4' Dulciana.
...except perhaps the Organists and Organ Scholars of King's College, Cambridge.
c.f. http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N05194
Eat your words, Herr Gedeckt!
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pcnd: I played the organ quite a few times both pre and post 1974. The general impression of the work in 1974 that I had was of a re-build that 1) sorted out the failing tubular pneumatic actions 2) gave the organ some more fashionable sounds on the Choir (the usual suspects, like a SpitzPrinzipal [8] Nazard Tierce Cymbal and Cremona) and that Solo Trompette thing (a totally different voice from the rest of the organ) 3) a modern electric console in HNB style. I don't think it dealt with long term solutions (releathering reservoirs). I haven't played it since the recent restoration, but it seems to be sensible in every way. I'm very pleased that stops which were switched around (Greening hated string stops, for example) have been reinstated, especially that the anachronistic Spitz thing has been replaced by the original Choir Open Diapason.
Regarding the console the 1974 console stops were laid out like the old one - two double columns each side in standard early 20th century Hill fashion. But I remember that the jambs were new and angled (with funny bits of leather round the edges of the jamb plates) and the old stops seemed huge and very close together on them. The stops didn't come out very far either making it difficult to spot what was on or not and it all felt a bit betwixt and between in style.
I guess the main thing would have been the addition of so many stops to cover the new Nave organ, couplers and the odd extra stop here and there just meant that the two jambs each side had to go over to three for sake of practicality. That's fairly obvious when you look at the two photos - before and after.
Lament the loss of the 1908 console, maybe. But I certainly don't think you need to lament losing the 1974 console with its ugly square pistons, green swell pedals, those funny HNB toe pistons and tiny stop movements. You can see for yourself the quality of what they have now, which I would think is probably much nearer the chunkier and classier feel of the previous vintage Hill console.
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Simon has indeed moved.
B
But the organ in question is here: http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=E01163 which is St Mary's Metropolitan Cathedral (RC)
not St Mary's Cathedral (Episcopal Church of Scotland)
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It is the hall, rather the organ, which makes this venue special, for I can think of no great Willis instrument which speaks into a better acoustic......certainly not the RAH or Sheffield City Hall; one of which is jumbled and the other of which is as dead as a witch's mammory gland.
RAH acoustic jumbled? Have you heard it recently?
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Thank you 'Goldsmith' 'Elsie', or whatever the pseudonymn was under which she was cowering, was rather getting her knickers in a twist. Let me state here that it is more than likely that 'Elsie' possesses greater musical knowledge than I, that wouldn't be too difficult ! but nevertheless I think that I have valid points to make over the RAH organ.
Some of 'Elsie's' points were a little muddled, i.e. " if there were to be many more organ recitals then audiences would dry up" so, in effect, what he is saying that if there isn't enough audiences to go round then why bother with organ recitals in the first place.
Solo organ in the Proms. ok maybe he has a point here. obviously the BBC have decided that one is enough.
HOWEVER, the RAH, as an institution, could promote organ recitals if it chose to do so. Doesn't the RAH have a responsibility to promote organ music having spent so much money on its instrument ?
Finally, if the economy will only allow 3 organ recitals per year then why on earth spend £1.7 million on restoring the organ in the first place ? For use at Christmas an electronic could be hired in and the audiences that attend these concerts wouldn't know the difference.
Other concert halls use their organs and seem to have no trouble in getting good attendances. Hull City Hall, someone mentioned, Symphony Hall Birmingham, Victoria Hall Hanley. It may very well be that trying to fill the much larger RAH for an organ recital is indeed impossible, or, at least, fill it enough, to cover costs.
I don't know. Perhaps someone might explain this point.
If my points are wrong then I await to be corrected.
M.S.
I'll quite happily answer Michelle's points.
The RAH has a vast auditorium to fill and there is a fine line between viability and unviability in terms of use of the building and promoting concerts. We can assume that the RAH authorities know this only too well and have currently decided that three solo organ concerts per year are the best balance between none and so many more that the audience sizes drop because they have more choice. It's basic supply and demand.
The RAH doesn't only use the organ 3 times a year and at Christmas. There are many concerts and other events which use it - it's just that you aren't aware of it. And imagine the flutter in the hen house if they had decided to get an electronic and scarp the good old 'Father Willis' as the Proms seems to be insisting on calling it.
I think that it is a red herring and will just confuse the matter by referring to other cities, where the audience patterns are different from London, the options are greater in terms of venues and musical choice (I don't just mean the organ) and none of the venues are the same size, and in a similar location and as busy.
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Point of information. Your information is just a tad out of date. Roger Wright replaced Nicholas Kenyon as Controller of Radio 3 in 1999.
You are quite right - apologies.
I stand by everything else though - and it was a fantastic Prom - all played from memory and the music sounded wonderful, as did the instrument, in particular the quieter colours that were used.
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It would appear from your cryptic reply that it is you who is being obtuse and divorced from reality.
... I personally think that the living re-incarnation of the 20th century's greatest concert organist, Lemare, should be invited to recital here, and by that I mean the young Australian virtuoso, Thomas Heywood; at least he knows, and fully understands, how to programme for his audience.
I do look forward to John Scott's recital in October, an excellent programme.
Finally, I do agree with 'Goldsmith' that Mr Kenyon appears to be very anti-organ; perhaps this might be a good time to push for his replacement as Controller of Radio 3.
M.S.
Really? The Proms are an independent music festival and not there to bang drums for or against one instrument or another. One organ recital is enough for the Prom season in terms of musical balance and sensible management of resources. The concert is at a good time for organ concerts and a reasonable day of the week too - a weekday afternoon would be out of the question, so perhaps you would prefer the late night slot?
How on earth do you think the BBC could justify giving over a whole evening Prom to the organ without having other single instrument Proms? I'm sure they are partly doing it as a 'favour' to organ fans.
Similarly, the RAH runs as a venue that is hired by the day or week by outside organisations. In order to balance the books the hall is managed on the basis that the building rarely sleeps. Nevertheless they have managed to squeeze out time to have three major evening organ concerts each year - plus the attendant many hours of organ practice which they must give to each player.
That is what I mean about the armchair critics getting real. You live in some sort of fantasy world where everyone wants hear lots of organ recitals at the RAH each year. But if there were so many more organ concerts then the audiences would inevitably pick and choose and eventually dry up.
Goode's programme may not be to your taste, or indeed mine, but it is at least innovative in terms of repertoire (not many will have heard of some of the music, never mind know it - but many non organists might just be interested in hearing another facet of a well known composer's output) and has a broad variety of musical style.
Thomas Heywood is undoubtedly an organist of great repute and his audience base is growing. When you are the controller of Radio 3 I'm sure you'll realise that you'll need to sell that to the British public a bit more before you risk a Prom concert on an unknow overseas player.
I'm sure that the great weight of organ fans across the UK petitioning the BBC will secure the removal of Kenyon as Controller of R3, in spite of his great success in the last few Prom seasons and fantastic development of the radio station - yeah, right!
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I believe you can also add the names of Roy Goodman and (Sir) Andrew Davis to the list of former organ scholars at King's.
Roy Goodman was head chorister and the soloist in the famous old recording of the Allegri Miserere. Now he's a world famous violinist. But I don't think he was ever Organ Scholar of Kings as he was an RCM student (though he is an FRCO!)
(Davis is already on the original list btw)
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The RAH authorities are doing a fine job with the wonder in their charge.
Mr Kenyon, planning supremo for the Proms, is another matter.
But why should they - there aren't violin recitals or piano recitals galore?
Some of you guys need to get a grip on reality!
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David Liddle and Ian Hare are both former King's organ scholars. Wasn't John Bertalot, too? Daniel Hyde, now director of music at Jesus, gave a brilliant recital (Bach, Mendelssohn and Wammes) at the Klosterkirche, Steinfeld as part of the IAO congress last week.
The list for John's would include:
John Scott
Adrian Lucas
David Hill
Stephen Cleobury
David Lumsden
Brian Runnett
Jonathan Bielby
Andrew Lumsden
Andrew Nethsinga
Philip Scriven
Iain Farrington
Robert Houssart
I don't think you are quite right about Liddle or Bertalot. Liddle read music at St John's College and was what they called an assisting organ scholar at Kings, but I think that his blindness precluded him from having an accompanying role.
I'm pretty sure that Bertalot was not at Kings.
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I have a liking for compiling lists, and over the weekend, at a loose end, I put together a list of the King's College Cambridge Organ Scholars over the past 30-40 years. With a few exceptiops, where your response may well be to ask: "Where are they now?", it really does read as a veritable Who's Who of the organ world in the UK, and is a remarkable testament to the consistent quality of organists that Stephen Cleobury and before him Philip Ledger and David Willcocks have produced out of the King's conveyor belt.
Oliver Brett
Tom Winpenny
Ashley Grote
Benjamin Bayl
Thomas Williamson
Robert Quinney
James Vivian
David Goode
Christopher Hughes
Peter Barley
Richard Farnes
Stephen Layton
David Briggs
Thomas Trotter
James Lancelot
John Butt
Francis Grier
Simon Preston
Andrew Davis
No doubt I have probably missed out a few - there is no such list on the web that I could find.
Adrian Partington is missing from the list too.
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Did Benjamin Bayl return to Sydney after his time at King's College, or remain in England (where there are undoubtedly more opportunities in this area)?
Rgds,
MJF
No - Ben lives in London and amongst many things runs an orchestra, The Orchestra of the City and the Saraband Consort.
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...kitchin ...
Are you from Norf London then, mate?
I agree, it's fantastic, innit?
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Well, I am not the author of this particular project! You can see mines on my own forum and see for yourself the differencies.
But it is quite certain the people at Leiden will perform lots of choral music with theirs!
More fundamentally, it might be interesting to question the idea to reconstitute a Schnitger or a Cavaillé-Coll would be "better" than absolutely whatever other style, even if it would commit the awful error of taste of being british....
Pierre
The trouble is, Pierre, I don't think that you really 'listen' to other people's arguments. You hear them but you don't listen.
Being British isn't an error of taste - saying that is just rude. Nor do I wonder WHY you want to build an 'English' organ (just as I have no doubts as to why some here want to build the copycat type of organs you mention, for example).
However to make sense of the English Cathedral organ you also need to know what it is there to do, which is accompany Church of England choral offices of a particular genre and in a restricted time period (approx. 1890 - 1970).
My argument, and also sjf's, is that what is proposed only looks like the sort of organ that is not based on any kind of true English organ, but is harking back to the period when many cathedral and other organs were modified and 'improved' to contain an odd collection of different styles from several different countries and periods. So I say again, if you must build an English Cathedral Organ (whatever you think that might be) then base it on real, unaltered examples and don't mess about adding a little Tierce here and an Harmonics there without the other stops that belong with those ranks.
After all that, if you still want a crap English Cathedral organ which is a mish mash of styles then you can always buy the old one from Worcester!
Sheffield
in General discussion
Posted
I don't think that the console at Sheffield is adjacent to choir at all, but sits one bay further east, tucked away behind one of the pillars supporting the tower (the choir seats are at the east end of the Nave). Some of the organ's speakers are quite close to the console and the organ's sound is set up to be very loud in order to project into the building, so I doubt that the organist stands a chance of hearing the choir (and the organ in balance with the choir) without using the headphones.
Some cathedral (pipe) organs have a sound relay of the choir through speakers to the organ loft. I suppose that it depends on the individual set up whether it would be better or worse using speakers rather than headphones. In these circumstances I think I'd rather hear the 'fresh' and immediate sound of an organ I was playing at close quarters rather than at arms length through a sound system.