AJJ
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Posts posted by AJJ
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.....pile cream.....
The mind boggles as the ramifications of this but please - let's not start a new thread!
AJJ
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Its certainly far easier to accompany a choir in Worcester Cathedral than it is in Bath Abbey - and no one's proposing to scrap the Klais just yet as far as I'm aware.
Marcus Sealy the Assistant Orgainst at Bath seems to manage to accompany week in week out without too much trouble on the Klais and certainly, singing there in the early 90s with the organ in its previous manifestation I can testify to some strange things that went on then. As with Adrian Lucas' description of Worcester I remember some strange registrations needing to be used to make things sound right. On one occasion various bits and pieces (including the Positive 2') were coupled down at the start of the Britten Te Deum to make the Pedal sound as if it were all playing in sync. When I was able to play it then it was certainly noticable that all was not well - to look inside revealed a a total lack of organisation generally with pipes on chests all over the place and a real mixture of actions and voicing. As page-turner for Peter King playing the 'almost new' Klais some time ago now it seemed to me then that tonally and action-wise things were certainly much more positive and immediate - altogether an exciting noise with some lovely soft effects. As perhaps with Worcester - the people who lived with the instrument had very definite views on what should be done and whatever one feels about the work going abroad the instrument as it now stand has personality and above all seems to do what is required of it.
AJJ
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It was both enlightening and a relief to read Adrian Lucas' posting as it seems to me that quite a large ammount of recent dialogue about Worcester on this list has bounced back and forth somewhat without going anywhere much. The whole project has (as one might expect) been throughly thought through by people involved in the daily musical life of the cathedral with due consideration to the 'contexts' of both old and new instruments and a first rate organ builder engaged. We should congratulate them on a daring solution that will hopefully provide for all their needs and furnish the cathedral with something that will not cause problems for their successors. We also need to have have some faith in the fact that they do know what they are doing and look forward to hearing the results of their deliberation and Kenneth Tickell's work in the Quire and whatever else goes on in the nave.
AJJ
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Put Orgue-l into Google and follow the links etc. - it's quite a good list to subscribe to.
AJJ
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Orgue-l at present has quite an interesting thread on it about plans for Worcester including details from Kenneth Tickell and Ian Bell etc. - well worth a look!
AJJ
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For something different and indeed rather special listen to Keith John playing the Enigma Variations and the Elgar Sonata on the Temple Church - vintage H & H - on the Hyperion label.
AJJ
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According to old LPs I have (recorded at Worcester), and of course with the limitations this implies (I visited Worcester long after the Diaphones were disabled), it seems to be somewhere between a reed and a flue stop, but rather with the power of a strong reed.
Very impressive with the full organ and a full congregation singing
(But does such a situation still obtain nowadays?).
The Schoenstein company in the USA have used Diaphones in some of their recent instruments - a note to Jack Bethards there would I am sure give you the information you need.
AJJ
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And the Tuba Mirabilis at St. John’s College Cambridge and the Ophicleide at Chelmsford Cathedral.
John Pike Mander
Oops - sorry - how could I forget these - and on the same website as this!!
AJJ
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.....a Tuba that's possible with a tracker action deserves more than a little interest...
Try St Peter's Eaton Square, London - 4 manual organ by Kenneth Jones (1993). Tuba Mirabilis on tracker action in Solo box. NPOR ref. N18502. Or if you want something a little older - Turvey in Bedfordshire - 4 manual by William Hill (1846 onwards) with a Tuba Mirabilis (only) on its top manual and enclosed in the Swell box. NPOR refs. NO9400 and D07465.
AJJ
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Did not GD&B have connections with the great John Compton, whom many consider to be ahead of his time?
'Rippin' of Grant, Degens and Rippin was an ex Compton man as was 'Degens' - see 'Twenty One Years of Organ-Building' by Maurice Forsyth-Grant pub. Positif Press.
There is an organ in the chapel at Aldeham School near Elstree in Hertfordshire (NPOR ref D00099) - Forsyth-Grant's ex house organ - containing Michell & Thynne pipework (including some amazingly lush strings) with Compton style luminous stop console. I visited Aldenham as an impressionable teenager and was amazed by some of the sounds there including some very 'up front' voicing and an a rather bizzare sounding Cornet on the Great with ranks: 8/9, 8/11, 8/15. There was also a second more conventional Cornet. In quite a big acoustic the organ sounded very fine.
AJJ
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I have to say that I find the idea of mixing a Silbermann style organ with a Cavaillé-Coll Récit a little curious to say the least...... Where is the integrity of tonal design in such a scheme?
John Pike Mander
Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but people seem to like Fisk doing things like this - what is the difference here?
AJJ
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As a matter of interest - how does what could happen at Worcester differ to what did happen at Chelmsford and Southwell (stylistically different of course but broadly similar with 'nave' and 'choir' sections) and what could be happening in the future at Sheffield? Were there similar feelings to those expressed by some list subscribers when these (in my opinion at least) very worthy arrangements were created and is anyone starting to get upset about the possible demise of the Father Willis pipework at the core of the Mander at Sheffield and its replacement by something possibly from beyond these shores? While not wanting to go over previous discussions I am interested (having worked within 'dropping in distance' to Worcester albeit sometime ago, not heard Chelmsford and Southwell in their previous incarnations and sung against Sheffield and its Tuba when all was working) in how Worcester is different.
AJJ
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This Worcester thread has been banging on a bit now but it would be really interesting to know what is actually being proposed! Am I the only one that doesn't? Please could someone spell it all out so that I can decide whether I want to argue on one side or the other!
Thanks in anticipation
AJJ
PS Stoplists would be nice too!!
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The instrument gives us a satisfaction that an electronic could never do - we have even forgiven it for having no pedals. We have found new repertoire in searching out organ music for manuals - Fleury, Torres, Rene Vierne etc.
It sounds great fun - and the one manual repertoire is amazingly large and not just confined to the expected early music. Much of the French organ or harmonium music works well - the 24 pieces by Langlais include some real gems.
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Quote.......
Why would S.Green, England, Harris,
Willis and A.Harrison be less interesting?
Best wishes,
Pierre Lauwers.
Or even the Kenneth Tickell at Dulwich (see NPOR) which is modern yet sounds as Brtitish as they come and was designed in collaboration with a resident organist who also knows his stuff as far as 'sensible' organ design concerning reperoire and actual service usage is concerned. An organ with its own real identity. Maybe at Worcester.......?
AJJ
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Interestingly also builders/designers of organs from the USA are increasingly visiting the UK to look at our organ heritage. By coincidence only last week I was in contact with the distinguished and respected proprietor of an old established organbuilding concern over there who was extolling some of our late 19th century and early 20th century instruments. More especially the ingenuity of design and construction and the standard of pipework and voicing. His admiration and enthusiasm for them and at least some of the music that would naturally 'go' with them knew no bounds. As an aside he was also bemoaning the need often in the US for everything to be LARGE whereas often the British economy of design combined with superb voicing on occasions lessened the need for all things vast.
AJJ
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Why are so many British organists so dreadfully inward-looking and parochial - vide the endless (and, some would say, tedious) debate on Worcester Cathedral and the Ally Pally. There is so much to be learned from broadening our artistic and musical horizons.
Surely we should be taking note of the ECHO initiative. How about possible nominations? Why not Oxford or Cambridge, say, for a start?
John Sayer
Quite right! And we also need to keep the MUSIC in mind for if it were not for the need to play it on something the whole 'organ thing' would be irrelevant.
AJJ
'UK wise' - Edinburgh also is worth considering perhaps.
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If you only need an instrument to practice on and are concerned about volume, I'm sure most off-the-shelf digital organs available today have volume control facilities. And even if they come with stops in plenty surely they don't all need drawing.
I agree with this but I suppose part of it is also the 'large two or three manual in a small room' side of things...or...'it wouldn't be possible with pipes so should one expect/desire it with electronics?' I accept with the fact that one does not have to use all the stops provided but an example I know of sounds decidedly comical with pedal opens and batteries of reeds honking around a residential sitting room all complete with the echo of Liverpool Anglican and a sort of detached feel to things as if one was playing a giant harmonium three blocks away. Likewise doesn't even the digital representation of a diapason chorus up to Mixture IV still need the space it would theoretically have with pipes to sound anything but decent? The reverse being that in a standard living room one should think small. Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?
AJJ
Quote.......
''Well, why not consider:
-A true 4 or 5 stops pipe organ
-An harmonium?''
The '4 or 5 stops' idea is interesting - I quite fancy one like the one at Kilkhampton Methodist with 7 (NPOR D05164) but I am not sure about the harmonium despite the interesting repertoire.
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Any instances of clergy being stolen?
I know of part of a Trompette en Chamade 'going' - quite an effective one too - the part left behind was re aimed at the church floor!
AJJ
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I need an instrument to practice on - local church availability is getting less frequent and less easy to arrange and the church I actually play at has a 1 manual with non standard pedals etc. I do not have room (nor funds!) for the sort of pipe organ that I would love to purchase and I am unlikely to be moving house in the near future. I would be interested in ideas regarding the design of a small (but decent) electronic that would be appropriate for the room of a reasonably spacious victorian terrace house but not in an instrument that gave the effects of a large church organ in a synthetically over-large acoustic - in my experience this latter approach can lead to some ghastly 'St Pauls Cathedral in your living room' effects which I really would not want (and nor would my neighbours, wife or family - though I do see the advantage of headphones as an option).
2 contrasting manuals, a 16ft pedal, some characteristic solo possibilities (Oboe/Sesqui or Cornet) and for romantic indulgence a Celeste of some sort would suit the sort of things that I usually play - in fact general ethos (as far as one can generalise in this sort of thing) seems to come somewhere between a Cavaille Coll 'choir' organ and some of the small Hill/Willis 1 instruments found in village churches around here. Most electronics that one sees advertised seem vastly over endowed (I probably would not even want a combination action - good discipline!) stopwise, manual-wise and accessories-wise. Is there any hope - does anyone know of such an instrument or should I just stick to the piano? Help please!
AJJ
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I agree about Westbury having played it 'in concert' a couple of times - the action is responsive and tonally there is masses of excitement if you want it or else nice individual sounds and small combinations of stops. A really versatile parish organ where the old and the new blend well. I must admit I did not know about the Sesquialtera and its switches then but a real use was a set of pistons duplicating the combination pedals (I think) on a pad connected to the console by cable that could be used by registrants/page turners etc.
Back to Tierce Mixtures - a late 1800s Vowles 2 man near here has a fairly 'stock' 17.19.22. on the Great as the only Mixture on the organ - a real gem both on top of the chorus (really clangy) or as a RH solo with the 8 and 4 flutes etc. - unauthentic perhaps but it sounds ok.
AJJ
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You can still see the 'non Swell' side of the old Worcester nave organ complete with slatted casework and its own extended 16ft/8ft Pedal Bourdon - parked at the east end of the north aisle at Budleigh as the Positive division of the rebuilt organ. The Swell pipework has been incorporated upstairs in the triforium with the original Hele pipework and some new upperwork etc. 'An interesting sounding organ - including a Tuba Magna and 32ft/16ft Pedal Bombardes - Roger Fisher has recorded a CD on it. See NPOR for details.
AJJ
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The entry on the NPOR gives the Redcliffe Swell a quint mixture (12.19.22.26.29.) - it was at one point re arranged at a higher pitch but I had understood that it is now back where it started from - so to speak.
AJJ
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There was a 2 man extension job by Osmond till a few years ago at St Michael and All Angels, Andover - now replaced by a rather nasty Allen. I played it for school carol services etc. and it worked quite well for this purpose - quite bright and un-stodgy sounding on the west gallery of a fairly resonant modernish church - see the NPOR for details.
AJJ
St Pauls' 'refurbishment'.
in General discussion
Posted
I sang with a visiting choir during the 1970s rebuild while I seem to remember that none of the main organ was in use. The powers that be had parked the 'Willis on wheels' on the north side, choir end of the Dome area and we used that instead. It worked surprisingly well and at times one could almost think that the main organ was playing.
AJJ