HarmonicsV
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Posts posted by HarmonicsV
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If I recall correctly , the 80s scheme was abandoned because, it was felt that it was not morally justified for the Cathedral authorities to spend a very large sum of money on a new organ, given the extent and seriousness of the social problems existing within the Manchester Diocese.
I'm not sure these kind of economic arguments really help - are you suggesting we don't embark on any new cultural projects until world poverty is eradicated?
If new organs aren't commissioned, then organ-building firms will go bust, won't they?
I'm more worried by the prospect of another bland new chamade-ridden Euro organ cropping up in the UK.
A good Fisk, however, would be lovely... ;-)
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Whilst acknowledging the generally good aural effect of this instrument - undoubtedly enhanced by the acoustic ambience into which it speaks - there is simply too much clavier extension for my liking.
I must admit that I find the scheme a little wasteful - and, as Ralph Downes said about an entirely different instrument - "eclectic, with a vengeance." Given the size of the building, I wonder if the antiphonal sections were strictly necessary.
The Antiphonal Organ is really an orgue de choeur to accompany the monks. The main organ has of course to be able to accompany hearty congregational singing on a daily basis.
Surely the size of the building is at least part of the reason for the (effective) use of extension? There are many more huge organs in smaller rooms than this... How about your average Oxbridge chapel or City of London church?
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[Also on this organ, the Hohl Flute is why I hate Hohl Flutes, and the Large Open on the Great is far too big to build even a chorus to mixture on - it just dominates everything. I tend to use it as one might (very occasionally!!!!) add the Tuba to full organ.
But surely the Edwardian (and later) Large Open wasn't designed as the basis for a chorus - that was the function of the Small Diapason (or number two). Rather like the tuba, the Large Open was for special effects - or huge congregations!
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I found a point for my Twelfth for the first time ever today. It's a long story involving a 1970s mixture called Acuta 19.22 which I thought would be interesting to try out as a b21.23 just to see what the old 'Armonics would have sounded like (it's an Harrison). And, blow me down, it was absolutely magnificent - but the Twelfth was essential.
Indeed!
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The Germans have traditionally taken a different line on tone synthesis. They took it particularly seriously back in the 60s and 70s, when almost every organ of any size had to have a Septime or a None or something more extreme, in addition to the usual tierces, nasards and larigots. The influence was also felt over here in such new instruments as New College, Oxford and York University.
Perhaps the most radical example of such ideas was the IVP/77 instrument built by Eule in 1966 for Zwickau Cathedral in Saxony.
The manuals contain a varied selection of flutes, principals and mild strings at 8-4-2-1, many with the slightly exotic names fashionable at that time (Trichtergedackt, Doppelrohrflöte, Weidenspiel etc) together with a generous complement of mixtures. Among the many 'Aliquoten', both single and compound, are:-
Brustwerk: Nasat 2 2/3, Repetierender Terz 2/5-1 3/5, Sept-Non 2fach plus Schellenzimbel 2f
Oberwerk: Quinte 2 2/3, Sifflöte 1 1/3, Terzzimbel 3f plus Solokornett 3-5f
Schwellwerk: Rohr-Gemsquinte 1 1/3, Octave 1/2, Sesquialter 2f, Un-Tredezime 2f plus Windharfe 2-3f (whatever that is!).
Thirds, fifths, sevenths, ninths, eleventh and thirteenths are thus all represented in the tonal palette.
There seems to have been earnest discussion about the place of such stops in the tonal scheme as well as their musical use. The opportunities for colour synthesis are well-nigh inexhaustible, though the more 'stratospheric' pitches can have a strangely disembodied quality in which the fundamental is difficult to discern. The effect in chords is distinctly bizarre.
It seems to have been a distinctly post-war phenomenon, a quest for progressive and exciting new sounds (though, interestingly the first None was recorded as far back as 1859) yet regarded today, I suspect, as something of a curiosity.
JS
Another spectacular example is the concert hall organ at Sydney Opera House:
http://www.sydneyoperahouse.com/uploadedFi...sGrandOrgan.pdf
I've only heard this instrument in an album of lollipops recorded by Peter Hurford in the 80s. Does anyone know how this organ handles/sounds in the flesh?
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Isn't there one more or less opposite St Pancras Station on the corner? Can't remember what it's called. Done a couple of lunchtime concerts on it. It was in an absolutely terrible state last time due to being superheated by an enormous hot air fan right next to it on the gallery. In the end I gave up and played trio sonatas on the Collins portable instead.
Absolutely - a similar instrument of the same vintage; it's in er... St Pancras New Church.
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Isn't there someone called Harmonics V (or whatever) ?
And can we include Chamades on account of PCND5584?
How nice to be remembered - especially given my oft ill-tempered & uninformed opinions.
I should like to confirm that my composition is very definitely 10.17.19.b21.22, and could therefore add some considerable value to the imaginative scheme above...
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See
http://npor.rcm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?...ec_index=G00536
This is a Morgan and Smith from 1932. In addition to the stops listed in the NPOR there are two tabs, which I think are labelled "Clarinet" and "Oboe" plus the word "synth" or "synthetic", obtained by adding tierce or nazard to the Lieblich Gedackt.
A late organ built by our hosts had a couple of synthetic 'reeds' on the Choir (I think the Clarinet as well as the Musette):
http://npor.rcm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?...ec_index=N17674
By the time I knew this instrument it was showing signs of wear and tear, so I couldn't really give any objective assessment of these stops...
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Sorry and all, but to (save me looking all this up) which Fugue are we talking about? Just that I don't carry numbers in my head - I play them all and would love to take part in this discussion. Call me lazy or useless if you like.
I tend to identify fugues by key and (mostly) nickname e.g. big B minor, short C major etc. etc. Not ever having been a finalist on Brain of Britain or similar....
Bm on a theme of Corelli - but I had to google!
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Although seemingly straighforward, this comparatively short fugue is packed with delightful things, not least the wonderful stretto near the end. My problem, ladies and gentlemen, is how many, if at all, registration changes should be made, and where. The semiquaver passage at the end of page 1 (I use Novello for this) seems to require something a little lighter than the opening. But I am concerned as to the "authenticity" of this. In the passage that follows, a "duet" between LH and pedals, should the registration be as at first, leading to the wonderful re-introduction of the opening subject in the RH? That's just for starters. Any thoughts on this would be welcome. (I first learnt it on a 2-manual Walker extension but now I have something a little bigger to lay with I don't want to register just for the sake of it - I think it sounds quite effective played staight through on the same registration.)
Toodle-pip
Peter
This is gorgeous isn't it - I have a weakness for Italian Bach myself... I've heard it played in a variety of ways, but imho it sounds fab on a singing 8' principal - particularly in unequal temperament!
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Am I alone in my surprise at the munificence of £349k HLF grant for the restoration of the organ at St Michael's, Cornhill?
The announcement makes much of the historic provenance of the instrument - see Cornhill.
However, one would not have expected an organ which has been through quite so many transformations to meet the strict criteria normally set by the HLF. I can think of other - dare I say - more distinguished instruments of worthier pedigree which have failed to secure much smaller grants.
Although the HLF lays great importance on educational outreach - and what is proposed at St Michael's is doubtless commendable - one cannot help thinking such a sum would have gone a long way towards a new organ of real quality (such as that at St Giles, Cripplegate) which would have met those aims - and maybe also the musical needs of the church - more effectively.
JS
I'm delighted St Michael's has received this grant. It's an instrument which sounds glorious in this acoustic, and is part of a splendid tradition. The 1926 instrument would have been well known from Harold Darke's broadcasts, of course, and although not in the aesthetic of the new Oxford instrument mentioned above, will have a valid stylistic integrity of its own.
Making fundraising applications is quite an art, and best done by professionals - this is where many worthy projects fail. Bodies like the HLF have varying resources and priorities in different years, and also have to balance their awards - there is no 'absolute' standard. I would also suggest that an Oxford college (to respond again to the comparison made) has rather more resources/fundraising potential of its own at hand than a small City parish?
Why the sour grapes - can't we just be glad that this money is going to an organ project...?
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In my experience (now embracing two centuries and straddling a millennium), is that these supporters (certainly in the UK) provide the best after-concert parties - St Peter's Street, N1 being the most renowned and sort-after invitation in the Capital. I find this positively on-putting. I'll have nothing said against them.
Now, as for the fanatical supporters of the Zither ..... well, that's another matter.
Nigel
Without a doubt - what could be more genuinely supportive than a party?
I was referring to a certain frosty snobbery exhibited by 'so-called supporters'...
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Most of the the quote, first:
'...his showmanship is reminiscent of those organists nearly a century ago who saw themslves primarily as entertainers, transcribing all manner of music fundamentally unsuited to the instrument. Like them Carpenter actually reinforces the old stereotypes about the organ as the vehicle for mechanical rather than subtle music-making. Except, his instrument is a virtual pipe organ which sounds blunt and brash. There's no denying his technique, especially the Fred Astaire like footwork he shows in the accompanying DVD in his transcription of Chopin's Revolutionary Etude. But after his barrage of fairground arrangements and remixes, not to mention a couple of cheesy original compositions, there's little consolation to be had in po-faced performances of Demessieux and Dupre, which many organists play with more musicianly flair'.
Personally, I thought it a little unfair, and contained very little description of the music itself and I wasn't sure whether there was an axe to grind. Certainly I didn't think it was all that helpful before his UK dates this summer. Having seen some of the youtube videos, I think we ought to be helping to get people along to his dates, even if we feel unsure ourselves, which I don't, I'm still a fan and remain to be convinced the other way when I've seen him live.
I'm not sure whether the reviewer is himself an organist. Googling the name only reveals that he is a critic for the Sunday Telegraph, or an acoustic pop guitarist, one would hope that the BBC haven't stooped to those sort of people to review organ cds!!
I heard CC's recital at the RAH last year, as well as John Scott's the following evening. Each, in their own way, was superb.
CC has, without doubt, the most dazzling technique I have ever seen. I took my youngest sister, who I've dragged along to many a dreary recital over the last thirty years. She loved it. As to musicianship, CC's improvisation on TV themes (which I was dreading) was the finest improvisation I've ever heard. What a change from the sub-Cochereau-esque offerings we get from august Frenchmen these days!
I think part of what non-organists find off-putting about the instrument can be the organ's so-called 'supporters'...
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Olivier Messiaen was born on December 10, 1908. I guess that sets my listening programme for today.
A great day! I'll be going to this: http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/music/pro...y-concert-17948
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it is important that we wrench the organ away from its frankly struffy - to so many people - reputation and show it can be fun.
Peter
Why?
There are plenty of better ways of having 'fun', surely...? What's wrong with 'serious', 'profound', 'beautiful', etc.
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Having just heard the Royal Albert Hall organ last week (John Scott), one realises how superior St Pauls is, in terms of its beauty of tone and in its cohesive and useful range of colours and volumes. I don't know why this should be. Perhaps the flying saucers have not improved the RAH acoustics. Maybe it is intrinsically different in concept, through being a concert organ..? And possibly St Pauls is better because of the experience gained by Willis in builidng the RAH first?
Hey hold on there - horses for courses! I was also at both concerts; the St Paul's instrument is very fine indeed, but for 'beauty of tone etc.' I'd choose the RAH every time. It's all a matter of personal taste...
And I wonder what superlatives we might use if the poor old RFH organ were to be moved into St Pauls?
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At the NFT last night I saw Powell & Pressburger's wonderful 'A Matter of Life & Death' (1946).
The music is by Allan Grey, and the 'court' scenes contain some improv on a large-sounding instrument (hefty diaps, tubas etc.) in a spacious acoustic. Does anyone happen to know which instrument this was? The usual film sites (imdb etc.) aren't very illuminating.
Cheers.
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As part of the Vaughan Williams 50th anniversary celebrations churches are being asked to use as much VW music as possible in their services on 12th October, which was VW's birthday (in 1872). There are obviously lots of anthems to choose from and several hymn tunes, but NOT much organ music. However, in my quest to play something different I discovered, in my extremely untidy music cupboard, a copy of VW's Prelude and Fugue in C minor. Is anybody out there familiar with it? It was written in 1926 and, whilst not finding it immediately wonderful, have persevered with the prelude and I think it's wonderful. It's not like any organ music I've ever played before. I've never seen it on a recital programme or CD, but it definitely deserves more airings, especially in this anniversary year.
Best wishes,
Tim
Wonderfully characteristic piece, and recorded a fair bit. Particularly splendid performances being those by Christopher Nickol at the Caird Hall on Priory and a certain contributor to this board, at Eton.
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[quote name='Peter Clark' date='Sep 8 2008, 09:00 AM' post='40216'
(should it be Finale?) Has it been recorded?
Yes - Final=French, Finale=Italian
It's the last work (Final) in the suite of six pieces op. 16-21 published in 1868.
Lots of recordings - Arthur Wills at Ely on the then newly-rebuilt organ was my first experience of this piece...
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I much enjoyed the St John Passion conducted by Gardiner at the Proms the other day but I did wonder how "authentic" the choral singing was. It was so beautifully shaped, but would Bach's choir really have sung like this? Huge amounts of dynamic contrast - more Virgil Fox than Walcha. The chorales were certainly phrased in a way that a congregation couldn't have.
Mind you I have grave reservations about a concert performance of one of the Passions in the middle of the Summer anyway.
Stephen Barber
Absolutely - my particular problem with these kind of performances is the way the Chorales are sung: far too precious. Wouldn't they have been belted out by the congregation with big organ accpt? Aren't we told that this is why the German organ developed powerful pedal tone?
And how 'authentic' is the use of womens' voices... ;-)
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On the contrary I think that he had thought about it very carefully - but he was approaching it with a perspective that is very hard for us to understand.
This was recorded over 50 years ago when RVW was towards the end of his life - his formative years were at the end of the 19th century - over 100 years ago.
Most of the principles that he espoused are similar to ones that I see often in these message boards - it is the music that matters - use your ears - use good musical judgment - don't slavishly follow the registration in the score if it doesn't sound right ... etc ... etc ...
RVW's point is one that has often been made - we can never know exactly what a contemporary performance of Bach's music would have sounded like and even if we *could* know that we could still only hear it through our 21st century ears that have become accustomed to a whole range of sounds that simply didn't exist in Bach's day.
Of course, then you have the problem of what to do about it - the current fashion is to try to understand what we can about the historical context in which this music was first performed and then attempt a "historically informed" performance - but, at the end of the day, let's admit that there is still a lot of conjecture (which is just a fancy word for guess-work) and I think that the more successful "historically informed" performances owe as much to present day good taste and musicianship on the part of the editors and performers as they do to historical research. Put another way - we are never going to know the whole picture - research can give us some ideas of how certain things might have been - it can give us some pieced of the jig saw puzzle - but much more is still unknown than is known so it is still down to a modern interpretation to "fill in the blanks" and put those pieces together into something that is musically convincing.
If RVW appeared to be particularly cavalier in his approach I think it is just because he was being honest and plain spoken about what he believed.
Certainly one thing continues to be true - each generation has an absolutely unshakable certainty that they and they alone have been granted the wisdom to truly understand how things should be done, and how utterly wrong their immediate predecessors were ...
Absolutely to all that.
Slavish adherence to 'authenticity' as currently perceived is bound to lead to ruin. ;-) Shouldn't we temper historical awareness with good taste? And good taste (just like bad taste) is cultivated, not innate, and therefore subjective...
A small example: my organ teacher urged me to follow the registration instructions printed at the start of my edition of the Franck Third Chorale (fonds, anches 8' or something). To my ears, on the 20th C English organ in question this sounded thoroughly rotten, and quite un-French.
(There's an illuminating and surprising interview with John Eliot Gardiner on 'authenticity' in the new Gramophone.)
And wasn't it Tovey who said that to deliver an authentic performance of a Bach cantata, the choirboys would have to be given a sound thrashing afterwards for getting things wrong...?
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By the way, who was it who said something to the effect that he preferred nothing better than Bach as played by Harold Darke at St. Michael's Cornhill?
Rgds
MJF
I believe it was RVW himself, during the Great RFH Organ Controversy.
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Ok, I am at a slight disadvantage when I reveal that I have never actually heard this instrument in the flesh, and I speak from my hearing it in recordings only.
Basically, I don't like a number of the sounds I hear from it. There's nothing that actually makes me think "That's lovely". I had a recent listen to the Pye Golden Guinea recording of Downes playing Bach, coupled with the Widor Toccata, and thought what weird sounds he produced from the instrument. Certainly not the sort of sounds I enjoy hearing. I also think that a lot of the registers don't blend, and some sound rather "odd".
And, yes, in a concert organ of over 100 speaking stops, there should be space for devotional tones and noble diapasons as well as pseudo-Baroque squeaks!
And that awful "case" too, which looks like the organ has Tibias (yuk!) when it doesn't!
Don't get me wrong, I think that the organ at the RFH paved the way to an improvement in organ building in this country. But I think it is a child of its time, and has been eclipsed by instruments (of better integrity and cohesion) which have followed since.
But, yes, all credit to RD for steering the organ world in a direction of better understanding of "Baroque" principles.
It's just not an organ which I think I'd really like to hear in the flesh.
However, I'm always happy to be proved wrong......
But really - as someone who naturally inclines toward Arthur Harrison for Proper Organ Tone - do go to hear this instrument in the flesh (if it's ever resurrected).
It sounds remarkably well in the hall (certainly better than recent European instruments in UK concert venues), and in the hands of top-class players (recently David Goode, Jennifer Bate, John Scott) can perform magnificently. Recordings really don't do it justice.
Interestingly, the idea of the solo as a 'bolstering' division for use with orchestra etc. seems to have been influential in American concert-organ building (Fisk, Dallas etc.).
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Just heard the repeat on R3, and wish I'd been there!
OK - perhaps not a performance I'd turn to for reference (and why should I, with at least 4 'integrales' from OM specialists on my shelves), but how marvellous to hear an organist with fire in his belly!
After all, this was very cruel programming: the audience had just heard the world's favourite song-cycle in the venue of its first performance, sung by a much-loved diva who had replaced another much-loved diva at short notice. How on earth do you follow that? WM pulled it off triumphantly...
Of course an intellectually considered performance can be tremendously exciting, but in a live performance - one not destined for repeated listening - isn't context vitally important? After all, when he re-opened the RAH organ, David Briggs made a similar observation regarding his own performance of the Sinfonia from Canatata 149.
How great to have so much organ at the Proms this year, and such a variety of performers - after the 'Livre' at Westminster Cathedral last month, I can't wait to hear Jennifer Bate play 'Dieu' in quite a different context in August!
Could things be looking up for the organ at last?
Manchester Cathedral
in The Organ
Posted
I'm not sure that this is particularly secret - I've heard this, & have no connection to the South Coast church dedicated to the Prince of Apostles or the alma mater of Ralph Downes...
Unless I'm mistaken, in which case apologies...