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Brian Childs

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  1. I think it is also reasonable to point out that the Mander Organs of the 1960s was a very different builder to what it has become today. In the 1960s it did not have the same opportunities to build significant new instruments the company has enjoyed in the 1990s and in the early 21st Century. If you look at some of Mander’s instruments built in the last 10 years or so in the US and in Japan and compare them with Sheffield Cathedral, you would not make a link that it could be the same builder, except for the name plate on the console. Hi, I read your whole post with interest but was not quite sure exactly what inferences to draw from this final paragraph and thought it might be worthwhile asking for a little clarification, before I (and perhaps others) start reading in criticisms that were never intended. I assume it to be correct that Manders have in more recent times had more opportunities to build biggerorgans from scratch than they did then. (The Moderator of this site is ideally placed to provide authoritative information on this). But are their organs now also better built than they were then, which seems to me a possible inference. I have no doubt that they will be differently built : there is very little built now, or recently, which is constructed in the same way as it was then, from cars to TV sets, and we have available technologies now, particularly in terms of computer electronics, unheard of then. It is hardly surprising if a modern Mander organ bears the same similarities to one built then as a modern Ford does to a Mark 1 Cortina . But if I am correct (and again the moderator is ideally placed to correct me) in the early sixties the firm had already undertaken some important restorations of historically significant instruments eg Adlington Hall, St Mary's Rotherhithe, and would within a fairly short period of time secure the contract to rebuild St Paul's Cathedral, another fairly significant instrument . One would have assumed therefore that their work was "state of the art" for then : of course what was so then would not be so now ! I hope you will not mind me asking these questions but I do not want our host to accuse us of abusing his hospitality and throw us all off the site. The rest as I said was fascinating, but leaves us as perplexed as ever as to how a properly looked after instrument could have declined so swiftly into a state where economic repair does not seem a feasible option. Brian Childs
  2. Then there's also the danger of the Dean & Chapter agreeing to make expensive changes or additions to an instrument just to suit the whim of the current organist, who then immediately chucks in the job...... To what extent is this a danger in the present climate ? As someone not "on the circuit" for want of a better expression I have no feel for the supply/demand balance between talented musicians and desirable or prestigious appointments, such as being Master of the Music in a Cathedral. But one would have thought that the expansion of Higher Education generally, coupled with the fact that it is no longer inconceivable that a woman be appointed to the post, would have resulted in the supply of musicians qualified to fill the posts exceeding the demand {supply of available posts] by a substantial margin. If the laws of economics operate as they are supposed to - a huge "if" I grant you - then Deans and Chapters ought not to be susceptible to being pressurised in this way. They can afford to take the attitude that"if you do not like it you can go, and we will appoint someone who does...."Of course, relationships between real people are very seldom as one dimensional as the conventional behaviour of homo economicus and other factors enter the equation. A particular individual may be outstandingly talented, so that the wish to retain his or her services is very strong, or the "better the devil you know" factor may be in play, or it may simply be that there is a desire to accommodate a well liked colleague and provide him (or her) with a tool which is more to his (or her) particular taste, to mix up the metaphors a bit. All this however is based on a priori general knowledge considerations of what might be expected to be the situation: not on consideration of actual evidence of what it in fact is. Some of the members of this site must have such knowledge . Perhaps they would not mind sharing it so that we can replace speculation with fact. Brian Childs
  3. There was at some stage, a possibilty that the Sheffield organ was to go to Newquay Parish Church, in Cornwall, to replace their rather superb Nicholson/Roger Yates organ which was largely destroyed by fire. I am fairly certain that it was examined by an organ builder friend who is extremely competent. If it was such a wreck, I find it hard to imagine that he would have recommended that Newquay attempt to purchase the instrument. I wonder if it is possible that we have another 'Worcester' here? Sorry - I promised not to mention that post again - I shall slap myself quite firmly.... Hope it did not hurt too much ! Whilst the Worcester discussion itself may have exhausted all that can be said on the topic without repetition, it seems to me an issue of more general import underlies it. "I want rid of this organ because I dislike its style and it is not ideally suited for the sort of music I want to play" is a perfectly respectable position to hold but quite distinct from " I need rid of this organ because it is clapped out and cannot be repaired at an economic cost". The first addresses desire : the second necessity. My impression is that underlying a certain amount of the anger on the Worcester thread is a suspicion that the real reason for the changes to be made there is the first whilst that articulated is the second. As a lawyer I have to go with innocent until proven guilty in the case of any indivual involved in specific cases, (and there have been no convictions to my knowledge) but no one will convince me that it would ever be appropriate for any church musician to knowingly resort to falsehood to achieve an objective, however strong the belief that the course proposed to be followed was the right one and would bring enormous benefit to the institution when completed. That is surely the high road to Hell beautifully paved with good intentions. I do not KNOW whether Sheffield is another Worcester situation or not but having read the site to which a link was posted it is difficult not to gain the impression that the second reason above is what is put forward to justify the proposals, in which case we have, My Dear Watson, to pay attention to the curious incident of the behaviour of your friend, the organ builder.... As Mr Spock might have said, "It is not logical, Jim." Best wishes, Brian Childs
  4. [ because the organ no longer functions well enough to perform the tasks required of it. (Quote) But precisely, this is no explanation at all! In the Charleroi area near here, a place even poorer than northern England, there are many cheap organs from the 50's. Things with triplex windchests, zinc pipes, Laukhuff electropneumatics etc. There was no money to maintain them, and even less now to replace them. Mind you, a majority still work well. I do not believe Noel Mander did even worst... Best wishes, Pierre Dear Pierre, At the risk of appearing pedantic I have to say that " Because the one I have got does not work very well " is a perfectly good answer to the question "Why do you want to replace it" which was in essence your 1st question. I completely agree it is no answer to the question "And why does it not work very well ?" I also am aware of organs staggering on for much longer than this one did with minimal expenditure. However, we cannot go back to the past and devise a better present for ourselves. The situation has obviously been for some years that the organ WILL not work as well as a cathedral pipe organ needs to work, and something has got to be done. The fact that this state of affairs does not happen very often, and has never happened in your experience in Belgium does not alter the fact that it HAS happened in Sheffield. As to the way forward from here, I am happy to defer to those with greater knowledge of the merits of what was there before. But a completely new organ must surely be the most expensive of the various options, since implicit in that choice is that the old organ is unfixable at an economic cost. Thus labelled it would seem unsaleable except for scrap or cannibalisation. Therefore, the removal of the old organ will contribute minimally to the cost of the new : it might even conceivably cost more to remove it than it is worth, and therefore add to the cost of the new instrument ! It does indeed seem strange that an organ from one of our most reputable builders should fail so catastrophically. Perhaps therefore it has not happened, and that the organ is not in fact in such a bad state as has been represented. One cannot imagine how the cathedral authorities could gain from this situation : it can only cost them money. One can only suggest that in the medical field a terminal prognosis often results in the request for a second opinion. Brian Childs
  5. Dear Pierre, The answer to your first question is actually provided on the site to which you have provided a link and is because the organ no longer functions well enough to perform the tasks required of it. To make it fit to perform these tasks obviously requires money to be spent and someone has calculated that it is not worth spending that amount of money on this organ. I am not in a position to tell you whether that judgement is one I would agree with, never having heard the organ live and only having been in the building once. My recollection is that the building is not very high internally and that the organ stood off the main axis on the north side at floor level, a not unusual position for an organ in an English Parish CHurch which Sheffield Cathedral was, not being built as a Cathedral from the outset. The organ was "new" in 1966 but it was not entirely new, a significant number of Great and Swell foundation stops being from a (presumably redundant) Willis instrument from Bow in London. One explanation for this is a desire to rescue valuable pipework which would otherwise have been lost, but there is another - the desire or need to economise, in order to make a limited amount of money stretch as far as possible. There is an english saying which you may have come across "champagne tastes and a beer pocket", referring to an individual who wishes to have finer articles than he can really afford. An explanation - I do not know whether it is the actual explanation - why an instrument that was "new" in 1966 did not see it 40th birthday is that the builders and consultant were prevailed upon to provide more organ than there was money to pay for at the time. It was after all a Cathedral instrument and it would have been perfectly understandable if those in the Cathedral had certain assumptions about the features that such an instrument should have. It did not necessarily follow , especially in 1966 in a northern industrial town with its traditional industrial base in terminal decline, that the money existed to pay for it. Now whilst it is the case that if you want Saville Row Quality you have to pay those prices, it is also true you can get a perfectly decent suit that will serve your purpose for a time: it just will not last as long. It is possible that that was the situation in Sheffield in 1966. Best wishes, Brian Childs
  6. does anyone know what might be the definative Whitlock Sonata recording, I thought it might be the Robert Gower one recorded at Selby Abbey on the Abbacus label, or Graham Barbers Coventry one on LP Hi, In the absence of a recording made or approved of by Whitlock, and I do not know of the existence of any such, I am not sure that such a thing as a definitive recording can exist, if by that is meant a reference performance which replicates what the composer wanted/intended more closely and accurately than any other. So I am listing below all the commercially released recordings of the Whitlock sonata of whose existence I am aware and leaving it to others to tell you what is (1) good; (2) not so good; (3) left out ! PLAYER ORGAN RECORD LABEL Roger Fisher Chester Cathedral Wealden Studios Roger Fisher Lincoln Cathedral Amphion Graham Barber Coventry Cathedral Vista Graham Barber Downside Abbey Priory Robert Gower Selby Abbey Abbacus Jeremy Filsell St Luke's, Chelsea ASV Mark Lee Bristol Cathedral Regent Wolfgang Rubsam Chicago Uni Chapel IFO Paul-Martin Maki Church of Heavenly Rest, NYC JAV John Scott St Paul's, Cathedral Hyperion Colm Carey St Agnes & Ascension washington DC Signum Christoph Keller Altenberg Dom Sicus Klassik If anyone wants further details about any of the above I can probably supply them. Regards, Brian Childs
  7. Fraid not Richard. The NPOR lists it simply as "destroyed or broken up" which I consider a wicked waste. Only 55 stops,one reed on the great and one on the pedal but all those percussion stops ! I would suspect PCND (only joking). I have the Rogers LP . I must get it out and have another listen to it: its been a good few years, but I do recall the carillon at the start of the big western theme. Cannot remember now whether it was "The Big Country" or "The Magnificent Seven". I think the former but am not sure. Brian Childs
  8. Well 4" for most of the choir division would not be that excessive for a building of these dimensions in my view and hardly counts as high pressure. On the subject of percussion stops it is obvious we will never agree but that is OK: it would be a very dull world if everyone had identical tastes. And since I have - amongst others - JSB, Marcel Dupre, Nicolas Kynaston and Roy Massey (since his remarks about the "charming tones" of his glockenspiel at Hereford hardly betoken hostility) apparently in my camp , I feel no need to be overly defensive in relation to my tastes. As to Lincoln I am reasonably certain that I accurately summarised the gist of the letter I received, though I did not quote it. In view of what you say I can only assume that either there was some such phrase as "there is an apocryphal story that...." which I have forgotten or cleaned from my memeory OR Dr Marshall was wrong. I do recollect the letter mentioning the fact that Lincoln was 4 times the size of Hereford. On the face of it it would appear strange that a builder of Willis's experience by that stage would have failed to realise the implications. Hang on -something has just surfaced in my mind. I now think that the story might have run thus : Bennett wanted the Tuba enclosed , as at Hereford ; Willis pointed out that Lincoln was 4 times the size of Hereford and that this would be unwise : the compromise was that the tubas were not enclosed but were made small in scale. Would this accord with the sources you have seen and explain their rather untypical nature ? Incidentally was the cryptic "Probably not" a reference to (1)the fact that you would not have been impressed by the presence of a carillon stop OR (2) to your belief that there are unlikely to be people out there who have both money and tastes as deplorable (or even more deplorable) than mine. If the second was meant, I think a couple of days watching daytime TV will destroy your peace of mind with respect to that. Regards, Brian Childs
  9. Thank you Richard, I am at a loss to explain why I attributed the 1933 rebuild to Harrison, when I have the information on that to hand: old age creeping on I suppose. I know the tuba was moved forward in the case in 1978 which presumably increased its impact but I have not heard Hereford live since that time because once my parents- in- law (based in Stafford) had passed on we had no base in the Midlands from which to conduct excursions in the way that we previously had. And as several contributors, not least yourself, have pointed out recordings are not always always an accurate or truthful guide to what an instrument actually sounds like in the buildng.
  10. A glance at the specification of the solo organ at Hereford indicates the presence of both an enclosed Tromba ,available at 8' or 16' , and an unenclosed Tuba. I have always assumed that the Tromba is the original Willis Tuba and that the current Tuba was added by Harrison in 1933(because(1) it sounds like a Harrison Tuba to me, and (2) because I have always understood Willis enclosed the Tuba at Hereford) but in the sources at my disposal I can find nothing which either substantiates or disproves that assumption. Is anyone in a position to provide a definitive provenance for these two stops,please ? Brian Childs
  11. Perhaps you should buttonhole Gary Cole of Regent to suggest that Whitlock should figure significantly when they come to do the organ there, although that one may already be in the can. In which case it is conceivable a pleasant surprise awaits you : disappointment however is equally conceivable ! By a process of association of ideas about persons and their connections with particular instruments, what about a modern performance of a typical Whitlock programme at Bournemouth Pavilion ? Does anyone know of the whereabouts of any surviving programmes from that era? Or have any suggestions for a suitable performer ? What about other legends of the past who might be "recreated" ? Anyone prepared to tackle GTB in his heyday ? Could we turn this into a Christmas quiz with prizes for the best answers ? BAC
  12. DEAR JEREMY, HAVE READ YOUR MESSAGE AND I DO NOT THINK IT IS A MESS OR INCOHERENT. PIERRE WILL PROBABLY THINK IT INSULAR OR XENOPHOBIC AND SOME OF YOUR FELLOW CONTRYMEN MIGHT CONSIDER IT A BIT LONDON FIXATED, ALTHOUGH THOSE OF US WHO DO NOT LIVE IN THE SOUTH EAST BUT HAPPEN TO COME FROM THERE (AS I DO) HAVE GOT USED TO THE FACT THAT IF THE WEATHER IS FINE SOUTH OF WATFORD IT IS FINE FOR THE COUNTRY WHATEVER IS HAPPENING ELSEWHERE ON THE ISLAND ! I SHARE YOUR FRUSTRATION AT THE ABSENCE OF MODERN RECORDINGS OF THE ABBEY AND WESTMINSTER CATHEDRAL. ON THE OTHER HAND THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF RELEASES FROM ST PAULS , AND THE ALBERT HALL, ALL SAINTS MARGARET STREET, AND ALL SOULS LANGHAM PLACE HAVE ALL FEATURED IN CDS RELEASED IN THIS CENTURY. SOME MIGHT CONSIDER THE SHIFT OF FOCUS FROM LONDON TO ELSEWHERE IS MERELY AN OVERDUE RECOGNITION THAT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY EXISTS AND IS ENTITLED TO A SHARE OF THE SUNLIGHT. AFTER ALL IN THE ERA OF THE 78 FOR PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE REASONS THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ORGAN RECORDINGS WERE MADE ON LONDON INSTRUMENTS, AND IN THE 60S WHEN I FIRST STARTED COLLECTING THE FESTIVAL HALL AND WESTMINSTER ABBEY WERE EXTREMELY WELL REPRESENTED IN MY SMALL COLLECTION. PERSONALLY WHAT I FIND MORE ASTOUNDING AND MORE TO BE REGRETTED THAN THE ABSENCE OF NEW WESTMINSTER CDs IS THAT THERE DOES NOT APPARENTLY EXIST ANY CD RECORDED AT THE FESTIVAL HALL. I AM AWARE OF CURRENT PROBLEMS BUT WE HAVE HAD CDs FOR SOME 20 YEARS NOW. MOREOVER THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER FINE ORGANS IN THE LONDON AREA IN NON CONFORMIST BUILDINGS WHICH HAVE YET TO SEE THEIR DEBUT RECORDINGS. AND WHAT ABOUT ST MARGARET'S WESTMINSTER, AN INSTRUMENT OF INTEREST IF ONLY FOR THE ASSOCIATION WITH EDWIN LEMARE? I HAVE INTERPOLATED SOME OTHER OBSERVATIONS CLOSE TO THE TEXT TO WHICH THEY RELATE. This discussion has touched a nerve with this contributor, as it is something I have been fermenting about for some time. So please excuse me if it all comes out in a bit of a mess. I think if the first question our native record companies (Priory etc.) are asking before making a recording is "How will it sell in Outer-Mongolia?" then they may as well jack it all in right now. You only have to look at other organ specific record labels from other countries - JAV, Gothic, Pro Organo, IFO, Motette, Festivo, Aeolus - to name just a few to see that 90% plus of their output is recorded on native soil for native consumption. Some will end up being bestsellers that do very well overseas, but that's the cherry on the cake, not the raison d'etre for the cake itself. (I did warn you my syntax would go to pot). Priory with their Great European and Australasian Organs series have taken their eye off the domestic market, as have Christopher Herrick on Hyperion, both being guilty of seeing how much money there is to be made by recording instruments outside the UK. They forget that these markets already have their own home grown companies doing what they should be doing back in the UK. IS THIS ENTIRELY FAIR ? IF WE LOOK AT HERRICK'S FIREWORKS SERIES WHICH FEATURES INSTRUMENTS FROM CANADA,HONG KONG , FINLAND AND ICELAND AMONGST OTHERS, ALL OF THEM INTERESTING IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND WHICH I AM MOST UNLIKELY TO BE ABLE TO HEAR IN THE FLESH, ONLY THAT FROM ICELAND (I SHALL NOT ENDEAVOUR TO REPRODUCE THE NAME OF THE CHURCH FROM MEMORY) IS TO MY KNOWLEDGE OTHERWISE AVAILABLE ON CD AND THE MORE READILY AVAILABLE OF THE ALTERNATIVES WAS DONE BY PRIORY. (THE OTHER INVOLVED TRANSCRIPTIONS OF GRIEG,AND WAS QUITE DIFFICULT TO GET). MOREOVER IF OUR PLAYERS SHOULD STICK TO HOME, SHOULD NOT FOREIGN PLAYERS DO THE SAME ? IF THIS LINE HAD ALWAYS BEEN FOLLOWED WE WOULD HAVE BEEN DENIED SOME CLASSIC RECORDINGS MADE BY FERNANDO GERMANI ON ORGANS IN THIS COUNTRY. AND THEN THERE IS THE GILLIAN WEIR PROBLEM - PERHAPS SHE HAS LIVED AMONGST US LONG ENOUGH NO LONGER TO BE ACCOUNTED A KIWI BUT HER RECORDINGS HAVE BEEN MADE ALL OVER THE GLOBE , WITH THE EXCEPTION SO FAR AS I AM AWARE OF THE ANTIPODES (AT LEAST SO FAR). But I don't want to just pick on these two. There are other examples of missed opportunities as our record companies have preferred to travel abroad rather than mine the riches we have here. Jeremy Filsell, a fine organist, has just recorded the complete Vierne symphonies at St Ouen, Rouen for Signum. Wonderful, you might think. Well yes, except that Ben van Oosten to name just one organist has already done that, and we are not exactly short of recordings of the Rouen instrument anyway. Would it not have been wonderful if these recording had been made here in the UK. We have some very fine instruments here that could add something new, rather than just another set of the Vierne Symphonies on a Cavaille-Coll. Westminster Cathedral, Truro, Lincoln, to name just three. I BET THIS LAST CLAIM PROVOKES SOME COMMENT FROM CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS, IF THEY SEE IT. Mind you, both Filsell and Signum have some previous here. What a missed opportunity was Filsell's complete set of the Dupre oevre on Guild, recorded on the Möller organ of St Boniface Episcopal Church, Sarasota, Florida. Had this series been recorded at Westminster Cathedral, or another fine pedigree Willis instrument suitable for this repertoire, this would have been a must-buy. A missed opportunity. And going back to Signum and a recently released CD of theirs had Colm Carey playing English organ music written in 1937: Whitlock's Sonata and Bairstow's Sonata in B flat. Now isn't there a new organ that was built in 1937 that has always sounded particularly convincing in the English repertoire? Of course, Arthur Harrison's final masterpiece at Westminster Abbey. A logical coupling, one would think. Signum had other ideas and the Letourneau organ in the Church of the Ascension and St Agnes, Washington DC was the chosen instrument for this recording! I AGREE THAT THE INSTRUMENT CHOSEN BY CAREY SEEMS A STRANGE CHOICE, AFTER ALL AS BELFAST'S NEW CITY ORGANIST HE COULD HAVE USED THE ULSTER HALL ! WITH FILSELL'S DUPRE SERIES FOR GUILD I THINK THE BIGGER MISTAKE WAS TO RECORD ALL THE MUSIC ON A SINGLE ORGAN. TWELVE CDs DEVOTED TO THE MUSIC OF ONE MAN ON ONE ORGAN, HOWEVER FINE, UNLESS IT IS THE SIZE OF THE ATLANTIC CITY INSTRUMENT , ARE GOING TO MEAN HEARING ESSENTIALLY THE SAME COMBINATIONS ON A FAIR FEW OCCASIONS, PROBLEMATIC IF A PARTICULAR COMBINATION OR REGISTRATION DOES NOT APPEAL. Being a Londoner, the organs at Westminster Abbey and that in the Cathedral at the other end of Victoria Street are both favourites of mine. I still recall great recitals I have attended at the Abbey given by Simon Preston (during his heyday), Colin Walsh and Martin Baker, and at the Cathedral given by Langlais, Jennifer Bate (the UK premiere of Messiaen's Livre du Saint Sacrement), Nicolas Kynaston and Jane Parker Smith. But where are the recordings of these great instruments? The last organ CD out of the Abbey was of Andrew Lumsden 1991 vintage. As for the Cathedral, David Hill put out a few CDs before he left in 1987 but the only recordings since have been by Iain Simcock (disappointing Vierne IV & VI and Francis Pott's Christus) and an organ pops CD by James O'Donnell. I MUST HAVE MISSED THIS LAST ? WHEN DID IT COME OUT AND ON WHAT LABEL? I understand that Robert Quinney made a recording or two for Signum (brownie points) recently but these have yet to be released. Of the current Master of Music (the aforementioned Mr Baker) I am not aware he has ever made a solo CD, which for such a talent is a scandal. DOES THIS NOT DEPEND ON WHETHER HE WANTS TO MAKE A CD OR FEELS HE HAS THE TIME TO ? PAUL DERRETT HAS POINTED OUT THAT CATHEDRAL MUSICIANS ARE BUSY PEOPLE, AND PERHAPS MR BAKER FEELS HE HAS NOTHING THAT HE IS DESPERATELY KEEN TO SAY ABOUT REPERTOIRE HE WOULD BE HAPPY TO RECORD . WHAT WOULD BE A SCANDAL WOULD BE IF HE WISHED TO RECORD THE ORGAN BUT WAS DENIED THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO, OR IF, HAVING NO DESIRE TO RECORD THE INSTRUMENT HIMSELF, HE DENIED THAT OPPORTUNITY TO OTHERS. THE EXISTENCE OF THE QUINNEY RECORDINGS (ALBEIT AS YET UNRELEASED) IS FAIRLY CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE THAT THE SECOND SITUATION AT LEAST DOES NOT PREVAIL. As has already been said, one must assume it is the authorities who have put a bar on recordings being made more frequently, especially at the Abbey. They had a fantastic Whitlock recital series recently and I couldn't help thinking this was just the sort of fare that the Abbey organ should be recorded for posterity. BUT WHICH RECORDING COMPANY WOULD DO IT ? PRIORY ALREADY HAVE THEIR SET OF THE COMPLETE WORKS OF WHITLOCK, REGENT HAVE ALREADY DONE THE WHITLOCK SONATA FROM BRISTOL, AND ASV HAVE JEREMY FILSELL'S VERSION. IF THESE ARE SELLING WELL, THEN WHY WOULD YOU WISH TO RECORD AN ALTERNATIVE VERSION GIVEN THAT THE SIZE OF THE MARKET IS SMALL ? IF NO ONE IS BUYING EXISTING VERSIONS WHY WOULD SOMEONE THINK A DIFFERENT VERSION ON A DIFFERENT ORGAN WOULD FARE ANY BETTER? A bit of rant, for which apologies, but I must end by saying that every cloud has silver lining, and in this case it is Regent Records. Three Cheers to Gary Cole, for without his company's continued output of UK based organ recordings, each month's new releases listings would be that much duller. WITH THIS I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE. Jeremy Jones London <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
  13. Not on mainland Europe, but.........John Turner did the Willan at Glasgow Cathedral in 1977. There is also a CD upstairs played by someone else but I'm also too bizzy to go look who!!....oh! OK!!! hang on, I'm going!!........Yep, Paul Morgan/Exeter. As to the Diversion, Paul Derrett did that at Bridlington, both on Priory. Francis Jackson recorded the Willan twice at York Minster incidently. [ Thanks Richard, For the Willan there are also performances recorded at St Paul's Anglican Church in Toronto, by Andrew Fletcher(CD was called Late Romantic Masterworks, recorded at St Mary's ,Warwick) and by Roger Fisher at St Bee's Priory in Cumbria, and one must not forget Virgil Fox at Girard College recorded over 60 years ago. But that rather proves MM's point does it not ? On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of recordings of major works of European organ literature performed on English and North American organs, so if we are all equally insular as has been suggested elsewhere it must take different forms as between the continent and ourselves. John Turner and Glasgow Cathedral : seriouly under rated instrument and player. There is supposed to be a new CD of a transcription of Haydn's 7 Last Words but it keeps getting put back. Hope Paul does not read this thread again. Fancy forgetting the Bridlington release! All the best, Brian Childs
  14. [ =================== Take two modern organ works....the Toccata, Chorale & Fugue and the Diversion for Mixtures by Francis Jackson; both fine pieces which compare very well with almost anything else written after 1960 or so. Who has ever recorded them other than the composer? I'm glad to say, Simon Nieminski has produced an excellent CD of Francis Jackson's music from Edinburgh. Then there is the Healey-Willan "biggie"....the Intro, Passacaglia, Choral & Fugue, which I think is one of the greatest romantic organ works. Are they known in mainland Europe? I somehow doubt that they are well known outside England (and Canada in the case of the Willan). As a simple matter of information the Jackson Toccata Chorale and Fugue has been recorded relatively recently by both Roger Fisher at Hull City Hall and Colm Carey at St Peter's Ad Vincula in the Tower of London. For Diversion for Mixtures I have a vague memory that Graham Matthews once recorded it at Sheffield Cathedral but I am too lazy to go up to my attic to check that. But these are I think the exceptions which prove the rule. I can certainly not call to mind any recording of the Willan stemming from mainland Europe. In fairness to our European colleagues, its layout does pretty much assume a large Anglo-American organ , and its particular registration suggestions would have to be rethought, but I would have thought that if you can play Whitlock at Altenberg Willan should present few problems there. It is certainly a very fine piece and in my opinion easier to come to terms with on first hearing than the similarly scaled work by Reger. (I am expressing no opinion on whether it is in fact a better work than the Reger. I have one but I am keeping it to myself for the moment) Anyone out there able to provide any more examples ? Brian Childs
  15. Dear Brian, A simple question. I live in a country next to England. Since 30 years, the situation is the same: if I want to buy any recording of english music recorded with english organs, I must: -Pay a travel to London -Search myself in the boxes, and I have to know precisely what I want. (If it were the 10,000th Bach recording on any neo-baroque screaming machine, suffice a bicycle and two kilomètres). PIERRE, I SYMPATHISE BUT I ASSUME THAT THE INTERNET COMBINED WITH CUSTOMS FREE MOVEMENT OF GOODS WITHIN THE EU MUST HAVE HELPED THE SITUATION A BIT. BEING ABLE TO LISTEN TO NEW RELEASES ON THE MANUFACTURERS WEBSITE IS ALSO A GREAT BENEFIT. Now a fact: On the french Plenum forum you have some hundreds of members, a majority of whom are organists. Before I joined non one had ever heard of the name "Herbert Howells" but perhaps two, who travel in England regularly. An explanation may be here: there is not a great corpus of internationally respected UK music which can be exported (Quote) Where is the culprit? Certainly not the music itself! Some times ago, dealing with a subject that seems to be just another taboh, I placed a link to some extracts of S-S Wesley choral music. In france and Belgium these had a tremendous effect, I got tents and tents of information demands. If you have music that should be exported, then this one is a fine example. But the very people who recorded it told me "We shall never make it again because it did not sell" (In England, of course. The thing never was to be find elsewhere). So a bit of marketing would help. Need a sales representative? I'm free (but expansive) Best wishes, Pierre Lauwers. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> BUT THERE ARE HOPEFUL SIGNS THAT THE SITUATION MAY BE STARTING TO CHANGE. IN A PREVIOUS REPLY I MENTIONED THE EXAMPLE OF THE WHITLOCK SONATA FROM ALTENBURG. THE ITALIAN ORGANIST MASSIMO NOSETTI FREQUENTLY RECORDS ENGLISH PIECES INCLUDING SUCH SURPRISING CANDIDATES AS HOLLINS AND WHITLOCK ON MODERN ITALIAN ORGANS.HE HAS EVEN COME TO ENGLAND TO RECORD ENGLISH MUSIC ON AN ENGLISH ORGAN. SO IF PLAYERS AND MUSICIANS ARE STARTING TO PERFORM THE MUSIC - AND THE HEARERS ARE SUFFICIENTLY IMPRESSED TO WANT MORE OF IT - THEN SURELY MODERN TRADING WILL ENABLE THEIR WISHES TO BE MET FAR MORE EASILY THAN IN THE PAST?RECORD STORES MUST SURELY RESPOND POSITIVELY TO THE DEMANDS OF THEIR CUSTOMERS IN A WAY THEY PERHAPS DID NOT IN THE PAST, IF ONLY BECAUSE CUSTOMERS TOLD TO SERVE THEMSELVES FROM THE INTERNET FOR ITEMS WHICH THE STORE DOES NOT HAVE OR DOES NOT WANT TO TROUBLE ITSELF TO OBTAIN WILL FIND IT EQUALLY EASY (AND PERHAPS CHEAPER) TO SERVE THEMSELVES WITH THINGS THE STORE DOES HAVE. BUSINESS SUCCESS DOES NOT SEEM TO ME TO LIE IN THAT DIRECTION ! REGARDS, BRIAN CHILDS
  16. I think it must be the same David M Patrick, who now lives in Norway very sensibly. The business of recording organs commercially MUST take into account sales beyond the UK, and perhaps this is part of the reason why many fine organs in the UK are not recorded often, or at all. I AM SURE THAT THIS IS SO BUT AS YOU SAY ONLY PART OF THE REASON. I THINK I WAS PROBABLY GUILTY IN MY INITIAL POST OF NOT MAKING ENOUGH ALLOWANCE FOR THE COMPLEXITIES OF THE ORGAN RECORDING SCENE, WHERE FACTORS COME INTO PLAY WHICH SEEM NOT SO FREQUENTLY PRESENT IN THE CASE OF OTHER INSTRUMENTS OR MUSICIANS. THUS (1) IN PUBLISHING THE TERM "VANITY PUBLISHING" IS USED TO DENOTE OPERATIONS WHICH WILL PUBLISH ANY BOOK AT THE AUTHOR'S EXPENSE ALL THE PROFIT COMING NOT FROM COMMERCIAL MARKETING BUT FROM PROVIDING AN OUTLET FOR THOSE WHO ARE CONVINCED THAT THE REJECTION SLIPS WHICH THEY KEEP GETTING HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QUALITY/ UTILITY/ INTEREST OF THE MANUSCRIPT THEY SUBMIT BUT WITH THE SHORTSIGHTEDNESS OF THE EDITORIAL STAFF OF CONVENTIONAL PUBLISHING HOUSES. I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT THERE ARE MANY EXAMPLES OF "VANITY RECORDING" OUT THERE, THOUGH I DO THINK I COULD PROBABLY PRODUCE ONE OR TWO EXAMPLES BUT NOT IN A PUBLIC FORUM LIKE THIS. HOWEVER,THIS IS REALLY BY THE WAY , SINCE THERE IS NO MYSTERY ABOUT WHY RECORDINGS FALLING INTO THIS CATEGORY GET MADE WHERE THEY DO. (2) RECORDINGS SEEM MORE FREQUENTLY TO BE MADE TO GENERATE INCOME FOR THE BUILDINGS IN WHICH THEY ARE LOCATED. SOMETIMES THE PURPOSE IS TO HELP TO PAY FOR REPAIRS TO THE INSTRUMENT ITSELF, SOMETIMES FOR OTHER PURPOSES. THE REASON FOR THE EXISTENCE OF SUCH RECORDINGS IS SELF EXPLANATORY. HOWEVER (3) IT APPEARS TO ME THAT THE MAJORITY OF ORGAN RECORDINGS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT DO NOT FIT INTO EITHER OF THE ABOVE TWO CATEGORIES ARE MADE NOT BY THE MULTI NATIONAL BIG PLAYERS, MOST OF WHOM SEEM TO HAVE ABANDONED THE ORGAN, BUT BY SMALL OPERATIONS OPERATING WITH FEW STAFF AND LIMITED RESOURCES.(OR AT LEAST THAT IS HOW THEY STARTED OUT) THE FACT THAT A NUMBER OF THESE ORGANISATIONS ARE NO LONGER IN EXISTENCE SEEMS TO AFFIRM THE TRUTH OF YOUR OBSERVATIONS BUT PRIORY RECORDINGS SEEM TO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CARVE THEMSELVES A MARKET NICHE OF SIZEABLE DIMENSIONS. YET THEY ARE BY NO MEANS A LARGE ORGANISATION. AT THE MOMENT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOUR EXPLANATION ACCOUNTS PERFECTLY FOR THE VIRTUAL ABSENCE OF THE MAJOR RECORD COMPANIES FROM THE ORGAN MUSIC MARKET BUT CANNOT EXPLAIN WHY THE SMALL ORGANISATIONS WHO ARE STILL ACTIVE CHOOSE TO RECORD WHO THEY DO WHERE THEY DO BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE THE INTERNATIONAL MARKETING EXPERTISE INPUT IN THE FIRST PLACE TO INFLUENCE THE DECISIONS THEY MAKE. The marketing game is such, that sales people have to tap into the x-factor of celebrity and the world awareness of a particular instrument. As regards instruments, Liverpool Cathedral is certainly in a class of its own and enjoys world-status. Both Doncaster pc and Armley enjoy a similar world status, WHY THEN DO SO RELATIVELY FEW RECORDINGS OF EITHER INSTRUMENT EXIST COMPARED WITH SAY COVENTRY WHICH YOU DO NOT MENTION IN THE SAME BREATH AS THESE ? FURTHERMORE THE RECORDINGS OF WHOSE EXISTENCE I AM AWARE WERE MADE BY THE TIDDLERS RATHER THAN THE BIG FISH. WAS SELBY ABBEY A WORLD CLASS/RENOWNED INSTRUMENT WHEN GERMANI RECORDED IT FOR A MAJOR RECORD COMPANY ? OR DOES THIS EXAMPLE BELONG TO A DIFFERENT ERA IN WHICH DIFFERENT CONSIDERATIONS APPLIED ? and Blackburn Cathedral has proved its' worth as an instrument which records especially well. In absolute terms, I doubt that there are others instruments which do not either fall into a similar mould as these, or which are unique in the way that the Schulze organs are; no matter how good or original they may be. As regards the choice of performer, it is surely the case, that in a very discerningworld, only the very best, outright concert organists have the necessary x-factor and international reputation....people such as David Briggs, for example. BUT IS THERE NOT A PROBLEM HERE IN THAT PEOPLE WITH A WORLD CLASS REPUTATION WOULD QUITE RIGHTLY EXPECT TO BE PAID WORLD CLASS LEVEL FEES AND THAT AS YOU HAVE SAID BEFORE (AND REPEAT AT THE END OF THIS MESSAGE) THERE IS NOT A BIG ENOUGH AUDIENCE OUT THERE PREPARED TO PUT ITS HAND DEEP ENOUGH INTO ITS POCKET TO PAY FOR THIS ? YET THE RECORDINGS DO GET MADE. Anything less than this, really does have to compete with other offerings from ouside the UK, and in this respect, there are far more appropriate instruments for the purposes of recording the music of the French Baroque, the French Romantic, the German Baroque, the German Romantic etc etc. SELF EVIDENTLY TRUE , AND YET WE HAVE CHRISTOPH KELLER PLAYING A COMPLETE WHITLOCK PROGRAMME INCLUDING THE SONATA AT ALTENBURG CATHEDRAL AND THE ELGAR SONATA PLAYED ON A CAVAILLE COLL. MIGHT IT NOT BE THE CASE THAT ORGAN ENTHUSIASTS SUCH AS THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE BOTH AN AUTHENTIC PERFORMANCE AND A TOP CLASS PERFORMANCE ON THE SORT OF INSTRUMENT THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO HEAR IN THE FLESH -PERHAPS A DIFFERENT KIND OF REFERENCE PERFORMANCE. ALSO THIS ARGUMENT ONLY ADDRESSES THE SITUATION WHERE THE FOCUS IS ON THE MUSIC BUT WITH THE ORGAN, CERTAINLY FAR MORE THAN ANY OTHER INSTRUMENT, THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE LISTENING TO THE INSTRUMENT AS MUCH AS THE MUSIC. WE CAN ARGUE, IF YOU WISH, ABOUT WHETHER THIS OUGHT TO BE SO, BUT IT CANNOT BE PLAUSIBLY DENIED THAT IT IS IN FACT SO! By and large, there is not a great corpus of internationally respected UK music which can be exported; which is not the same as saying that UK music is rubbish, which it is not. Whilst many on this discussion board might rate Howells highly, his name would barely be known in areas outside the late romantic tradition, and the same goes for almost all other UK composers of whatever era. (That stated, I've heard Frank Bridge played on the Bavokerk organ!!) I AM SURE YOU ARE RIGHT BUT THEN WE HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN THERE WAS A BIG GAP BETWEEN PURCELL AND ELGAR, WHILST BRITTEN WROTE NEXT TO NOTHING. STRANGE WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT PETER STARTED OUT AS AN ORGAN SCHOLAR. THAT SAID I THINK OUR B TEAM IS AS GOOD AS THEIR B TEAM WHEN WE COME DOWN TO PEOPLE LIKE SPETH AND THE UNFORTUNATELY NAMED MR FUX, THOUGH THE WRITING STYLES ARE CLEARLY NOT THE SAME. Ask yourselves a question. Do you want to hear Vierne performed on a "Bogbush & Scraper" THIS IS A BUILDER WHOSE WORK I HAVE NEVER COME ACROSS SO I AM NOT REALLY ABLE TO ASSESS ITS SUITABILITY FOR VIERNE . DID THEY TEND TO IMITATE CAVAILLE COLL OR WILLIS OR WAS IT PERHAPS JOHN COMPTON WHO INFORMED THEIR TONAL IDEALS ? PRESUMABLY ONE OF THEIR INNOVATIONS WAS A REVOLVING MUSIC FEEDER TO ENABLE MUSIC TO BE CONVENIENTLY DEPLOYED IN ROLLS, WHILST SIMULTANEOUSLY MAINTAINING A CURIOUS ALLEGIANCE TO WATER POWER TO PROVIDE THE WIND SUPPLY ? or on the Cavaille-Coll at Tolouse? Do you want to hear Reger from Norwich Cathedral, or performed on a great Walcker or Sauer of the era? Above all, do you want to hear Bach played on the organ of St.George's Hall, Liverpool, or on the organs at Zwolle, Naumberg, Haarlem or Groningen. THE SERIOUS ANSWER IS THAT I AM SUFFICIENTLY GREEDY TO WANT BOTH, AND THAT IF FORCED TO CHOOSE I WOULD NOT NECESSARILY CHOOSE AS I SHOULD. I KNOW WHAT IS GOOD FOR ME AND I KNOW WHAT I LIKE AND THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS THE SAME THING. I CONFESS TO LOVING KEVIN BOWYER'S "A LATE TWENTIETH CENTURY EDWARDIAN BACH RECITAL" BUT THE FIRST COMPLETE BACH SET I OWNED WAS LIONEL ROGG AT THE GROSSMUNSTER, ZURICH. WHERE DO THOSE PERFORMANCES COME ON THE SLIDING SCALE OF AUTHENTICITY. IF WE WANT AUTHENTIC DUPRE IS IT NOT THE WANAMAKER STORE ORGAN RATHER THAN ST SULPICE FOR THE FIRST SYMPHONY ? ONE FURTHER POINT. ALTHOUGH I USED HOME GROWN EXAMPLES BECAUSE IF CHALLENGED I COULD PRODUCE THE SUPPORTING EVIDENCE FOR MY POSITION WITHOUT ANY GREAT EFFORT, I HAD INTENDED MY QUESTION TO EMBRACE NOT MERELY THE UK BUT ANYWHERE WHERE TWO OR THREE (OR EVEN ONE) OF OUR MEMBERS ARE GATHERED TOGETHER. THUS I WOULD ALSO LOVE TO KNOW WHY WE HEAR SO LITTLE OF THE EXCITING EASTERN EUROPEAN ORGANS WHICH YOU ARE NOW RESEARCHING, WHILST BEING AFFORDED PERHAPS TOO MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO HEAR SOME EXECRABLE MODERN EXAMPLES OF THE ORGAN BUILDER'S CRAFT FROM OUR CLOSER EUROPEAN NEIGHBOURS The days when any Tom Armstrong, Dick Popelwell or Harry Britten could record on almost any worthy organ, and sell recordings in a thriving domestic market, are long gone.....and THAT'S THE PROBLEM. DESPITE APPEARANCES I AGREE WITH YOUR BASIC DIAGNOSIS WHICH I THINK EXPLAINS QUITE A LOT, BUT NOT ALL, NOR DO YOU CLAIM IT DOES . IN FACT I AM NOW SOMEWHAT PUZZLED WHY AS MANY ORGAN CDs ARE RELEASED AS IN FACT MAKE IT OUT INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. MM PS: I forgot to include the URL for Organs&Organists on-line, which is:- http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/ [
  17. Clearly not. However, presumably there has to be some posssibility of making money by hiring out the organ - possibly even a profit. I never supposed that the venues I mentioned were making their instruments available for NOTHING, nor would I expect anyone to except when it is a member of their own staff making a souvenir recording to sell to visitors to the bookshop.
  18. If I had only known you wanted one so badly I could have been persuaded to part with my copy for £50.00 !
  19. Hi everybody, I thought I would see if the collective wisdom of the group could provide me with any explanation(s) of something that has always puzzled me, though the matter is hardly of earth-shattering significance. Those of us with even moderately sized CD collections can hardly fail to notice that some instruments appear far more frequently than others. Simply restricting myself to British organs, the area with which I am most familiar, (though I have noticed exactly the same apparent phenomenon with regard to organs in France and Germany)it is glaringly obvious, for example, that whilst Coventry, Blackburn, Salisbury and Norwich Cathedral Organs have been recorded by several different players, some of whom seem to have no discernible connection with the cathedral in question other than being physically present in the building in order to play the organ, other equally fine (or finer?)instruments , eg Liverpool Anglican Cathedral are recorded only by a staff organist and by no one else. I do not intend to multiply examples, though I could. At one level the explanation is obvious. The authorities in the different cathedrals adopt different policies. But why do they do this ? Is the explanation as simple as the personal prejudices and likes of a particular Dean or Provost or are there other reasons more susceptible to objective explanation and discussion. I am taking it as a given constant that the organ is in "recordable condition" and that there is someone who actually wants to record it. There is little mystery about the lack of demand to record instruments which are in such a pitiful condition that no one could be expected to buy or listen to anything recorded on them, at least with any semblance of enjoyment. A related matter is what motivates these policies to suddenly be put into reverse, so that a famine turns into a feast ? For years no CD was available of the Organ in Ripon Cathedral and the position in relation to Liverpool Metropolitain Cathedral was worse, since only the old Ryemuse LP of extracts from the inaugural programme of recitals was available. As I write I can call to mind at least 5 CDs of Ripon and I know of another in the "can" awaiting release: likewise I know of at least 3 CDs using the Metropolitain Cathedral Walker. Does anyone know the answer , or have any plausible theories which can account for this state of affairs? Regards to everybody, Brian Childs
  20. I was never convinced of the need for such a huge organ as the original, and feel the current is well enough. To hear that from the west end is to hear a very grand sound indeed. That would be compromised by additions further west. To me, it all comes down to what we see as Liverpool Cathedral. Despite having an internal floor area of 104,000 square feet, it actually is really quite modest and short internally, a little over 400 feet. The central space is lower than St Pauls and York, and indeed the width accross the transepts is far narrower than even many lesser cathedrals. The width of the cental space, with no aisles present is also incredibly narrow. By contrast Canterbury and Ely are vastly longer, at 518 and 537 feet respectively. Rochester is 324, and is ranked one one of our smaller cathedrals. The reverberation is exceeded by Canterbury (nave alone, chairs out) and others. So, if we are to announce the building as in some way unique we are not being quite true to dimensions or fact. The 104 feet tower arches are of course as unique as the bounce within the central space, something to reckon with.The almost physical "pull" of the building when played from the central mobile console, is not easy. But I think that ,given the almost obsolete and detached "well" masquerading as a nave (far lower also than the main floor!!!), the shorter length from nave bridge to east wall than even Rochester, and the fact that the organ carries so incredibly well in the building , we do not need more organ there. The building has evolved, with many faults in design that were never resolved, and bits of organ dotted about are a antiquated ideal that will probably and hopefully never be realised. It would be difficult to justify that on maintenance cost alone. On musical grounds it would resort to gimmickry, architecturally it could well be a mess, sonically downright unpleasant, and worse of all, the whole thing open to abuse. I hardly think you need to worry Richard. No one would seriously contemplate the initial capital outlay, plus the considerable addition to maintenance expenses to which you quite properly draw attention. Furthermore, experience with an organ which exists in a building which is completed certainly provides a legitimate reason for rethinking a design dreamt up on paper for a space which was still largely a building site. So the West End and Central Space Sections may now be completely surplus to requirements .Having conceded all that, an ethereal or echo division high up in the central tower would provide additional opportunities for QUIET effects !! (You see I can turn my mind to issues other than who has the loudest tuba and biggest scaled 32 ft pedal reed !) This looks in a quite different direction from more power and merely contemplates the possibility of installing a few more stops in a location where one, the Trompette Militaire, is already located, and hence in a location to which the tuner already has to venture. Of course, I recognise that one logical possibility consequent on the fact that opinion about the new stop is strongly divided would be a decision to get rid of it, though this does seem rather wasteful and rather lacking in gratitude to those who provided the funds to instal it in the first place. On a simple question of fact, my understanding has always been that the Trompette Militaire was on 36" WP. I suppose I might have dreamt this, or has the pressure been raised since the stop was installed ? I believe that there also exists a division of opinion on the efficacy of the Tuba Magna and that there are those who claim that the Bombarde Tuba Chorus are adequate in themselves and finer stops ? Does anyone know the opinion of Noel Rawsthorne on this question? I have not heard the Cathedral Organ live for some time. In the old days I made a point of calling in to the building on the way to and from the ferry, but nowadays the budget airlines mean that only the rich travel that way! And anyway it now docks on the other side of the river. I also miss eating dinner in the Berni Inn overlooking the Pier Head before wandering around to get on the ship. Best wishes, Brian Childs
  21. I suppose it must be some sort of testimony to the individuality of human experience that two replies produce two radically different assessments of the merits of an instrument. I have never actually managed to hear the Abbey organ "used in anger" live:only burbling away to itself on a couple of gentle 8 fts which merely sounded pleasantly atmospheric, as one would expect. It certainly records well, vide the Preston recordings from the 1960s, and the fact that someone was prepared to pay £85 for his later Liszt/Reubke recording (according to another thread on this site) would at least seem to indicate that the results are not universally regarded as awful.
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