DQB123
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Posts posted by DQB123
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Dude, the cost of the ABRSM FRSM diploma examination is £525 which for a 1.5hr exam with two examiners and somebody to mark a 5000 word essay submitted about three months before the practical. This is an organisation that does hundreds of thousands of exams a year so even they don't offer economies of scale. FRCO looks cheap in comparison!
Where are the exam centres?
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I ask again ....
Why couldn't local FRCOs in good standing be allowed (on behalf of the RCO) to examine candidates in local centres a la ABRSM? After all - as the website advises:
Examination Fees July (Summer) 2006 - January (Winter) 2007
Certificate (CertRCO)
Whole Examination £155 inc VAT
Organ Playing only (Pieces and Keyboard Skills) £125 inc VAT
Subsequent Examination in Organ Pieces only £100 inc VAT
Subsequent Examination in Keyboard Skills only £50 inc VAT
Written Papers only £50 inc VAT
Associateship (ARCO)
Whole examination £225 inc VAT (£155 inc VAT )
Organ Playing (Pieces, Keyboard Skills, Aural) £170 inc VAT (£125 inc VAT )
Subsequent Examination in Organ Pieces only £145 inc VAT (£100 inc VAT )
Subsequent Examination in Keyboard Skills only £80 inc VAT (£50 inc VAT )
Written Papers only £115 inc VAT (£95 inc VAT )
Aural Tests only £50 inc VAT (£35 inc VAT )
Fellowship (FRCO)
Whole examination £350 inc VAT (£215 inc VAT )
Organ Playing only (Pieces and Keyboard Skills) £275 inc VAT (£165 inc VAT )
Subsequent Examination in Organ Pieces only £240 inc VAT (£140 inc VAT )
Subsequent Examination in Keyboard Skills only £115 inc VAT (£70 inc VAT )
Written Papers only £160 inc VAT (£115 inc VAT )
Choral Directing (DipCHD)
Whole examination £435 inc VAT
Practical only £360 inc VAT
Written only £115 inc VAT
Licentiateship in Teaching (LTRCO)
Portfolio only £60 inc VAT
Practical only £300 inc VAT
so it CERTAINLY ain't cheap!
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It crossed my mind that it might be Crown Property. It does seem a shame that the lease could not have been re-negotiated before the value of the site precluded such a decision.
Was it not that building, approached by the steps up to the Royal Albert Hall that gave the RCO its awesome air of authority??? Was it not the building that filled us all with a certain terror???
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From the other side of the great divide....
Paul Derrett, he say ....
I realise that very soon after this possible site got going [ie Michelin Stars for Vicars (Ed.)], there would have to be a rival site run by clerics where 'weird church musician' stories could be aired.
Well this is it folks.....
A quote I often reflect on is one of Roy Massey's
'I love the Lord, but I can't stand his friends!'
Ah yes...........
Like the good Professor P*nd*r, who wished to play the first hymn at Remembrance Sunday to that lovely tune by F J Haydn.......
Q
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Talking of which, how much should we charge the RCO for the benefit of our advice? After all, if they heed much of what has been said, they may survive yet another century!
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I feel much the same.
I have written to the RCO explaining my position. I also intend to include a copy of my post answering the statement made by David Saint, since I cannot assume that he has bothered to return in order to learn the effect of his words.
On balance, I will probably withhold my membership fee and instead, use some of the money to purchase a subscription to Big and Bouncy. At least it will probably be more entertaining.
Big and Bouncy huh? Are we talking of a double rise reservoir here?
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Mander Organs has received a written complaint from the highest level of the RCO about this thread. ....
SNIP!!!
So then, who or what is the highest level of the RCO - God? The Queen? El Presidento??? And what are they threatening? Excommunication? Banishment from the Empire - and every church and cathedral organ loft in Christendom? To sue us for daring to ask a question?
We are not here to be bullied....
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Well, I guess that's my RCO diploma floating out into the Irish Sea....
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Every hour I spend avoiding consecutives in Bach harmony is a page of a Bach Fugue not learned...simple as that.
Ah but somehow when you have a BMus you seem suddenly to be able to sniff consecutive fifths out!
I never managed to learn a page of a Bach fugue in an hour!!!
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Before this thread is hi-jacked by Sentamu's drums ....
Having considered the difficulties that the venerable old institution has undergone in recent years, it would be a tremendous calamity if one day there was no RCO. I sincerely hope that the less threatening comments
in this thread will be noted and that a change in fortunes will take place. It would certainly have been very nice to see the college located in Birmingham and the plans were exciting - shame about the dosh.Going back to the content of the examinations, I always felt that the difficulty of the exam was that which made passing it a _really worthwhile_ thing to do. To pass either AR or FR is a considerable achievement. But one thing that I have felt for ages is that I would like to see local examination centres. In this area I can think of three or four FRCOs immediately. Two are cathedral organists, one a pretty busy freelance player who also examines for the ABRSM). One is a retired cathedral organist, Roger Fisher (ex Chester) who lives just about three miles from here. He has a more than adequate house organ set in a rural and quiet area which would be ideal for sitting an examination of this type. Why couldn't local FRCOs in good standing be allowed (on behalf of the RCO) to examine candidates in local centres? I am sure that were this to be done it would be a PR triumph. Certainly it would get me working again!
This debate started with the question of membership of the RCO being set at £68. I still think that is far too much, but if it must be so then it has to be made worthwhile. The examination fees are also very, very expensive especially if travel and overnight accommodation and a trip to "have a trial run" on the organ are included in the cost. It can cost hundreds of pounds and these externals which I have just mentioned add hugely to the cost, and make it beyond the budget of most. (Paul Derrett mentioned that £68 = 2 months electricity bill, so I guess he could power his house for about a year or more on what it costs to take an FRCO diploma) Consider that the nearest examination centre to me in North Wales is Huddersfield which is (according to the RAC) 95.6 miles from here. The Dulwich centre is 227.7 miles, and Edinburgh, well goodness knows!
If the RCO has no physical HQ, and if that is not now perceived to be what the organisation is about in any case, then why not go for local centres and encourage a whole new generation of musicians to strive for the excellence which is/was an RCO diploma? I am positive that a move such as this would be a public relations triumph.
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Ladies and gentlemen
It was suggested to me that, as a trustee of the RCO, I should read this forum and, having done so, let me add a few thoughts.
>>SNIP<<
I hope we all share the mutual aim of strengthening both the College and the overall community of organists for the future. If so, please (i) give the RCO a break and allow it to move forward, (ii) think beyond what it “is offering to me” just now and remember it is a charity not a club and (iii) stand as candidates in the next governance election.
Or resign.
David Saint
RCO Trustee
As it was me who started this thread, I have to say that I am extremely shocked at this message from an RCO Trustee. It seems that just about everything that has been said on this thread has been confirmed.
When (to my amazement) I read that violence had been threatened, I looked through the whole thread to see what could possibly be interpreted in that manner. The only thing I saw was a comment which referred to a possible (hypothetical) reaction to the RCO's incredibly rude subscription demands. I did not appreciate the veiled threat of closing this thread - and mention of the police was plainly ridiculous.
The time is long overdue for a total PR overhaul at the RCO. Correspondence is tremendously important in any organisation. My own experience of a letter from Simon Lindley (as President) invoked my annoyance and disgust rather than my desire to support this snooty "charity". I hope that from people's comments on this thread that Mr Saint has made a note of this fact. Oh and another thing: we are to think beyond "what it is offering to me". But what is the point of belonging to any organisation if there is nothing in it for me??? That argument can never justify the fact that there is nothing in the RCO for the great majority of its members past and present. That's what we've been saying all along!
Once very well respected, the RCO now appears plain and simply too big for its own boots, perhaps living on past glories. Who knows, once the word of this (what I assume to be an) official response gets out, the resignations may come in thick and fast. And then what will they have? No subscriptions, that's for darned sure!
By the by, I understand that Burnham no longer recognises the FRCO diploma as being of Graduate status.
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I second this as both a sensible and logical idea.... however.........
So why doesn't someone suggest the idea to the controller of Radio 3 instead of pouring p**p on it?
If all we do is whinge and then negate any and all ideas then (as Private Frazer would say), "We're doomed...."
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I've wanted to post this for a while, but was reluctant to do so as I did not want to give anyone ideas. However, with metals prices at, or close to record levels, including tin and lead on the London Metal Exchange, I strongly urge organists to make sure their churches beef up their security. It would be a tragedy to hear of organ pipes diesappearing to thieves intent on melting them down to make a quick, small fortune on the scrap market, but it is a sad and real possibility in today's environment of staggeringly high metals and commodity prices. Primary copper is worth well over $7,000 a tonne and has even been above $8,000 a tonne this year and it has an extraordinarily high value on the scrap market.
SNIP!!
Also at risk are the lead from stained glass windows and a church's silverware.
If you have a pipe organ under you care in a church, a concert hall or your home, please do all in your powers to make sure it is secure. Today's metals prices are unprecedented, but opportunistic thieves have probably been around for as long mankind. So please be on your guard.
I have long been praying for such a miracle at our church
Have we any evidence of the pipes having been nicked from any churches in the UK?
With EIG our churches are covered for being open (not locked) during the day, as they prefer to replace candlesticks etc, nicked by person who walked in and took them, rather than who climbed in through a hole where stained glass once was.....
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Since the setting up of microphone equipment doubtless costs money, one wonders why Aunty Beeb doesn't kill a couple of birds with one stone. They could record choral evensnort and a couple of organ recitals whilst the mics and their engineers are still in place. That way we would enjoy a variety of fine cathedral (and other) organs, and hear what our Cathedral Organists (and others) can do!
It seems to me that the organists at Chester Cathedral are all pretty recital ready, and I'm sure the same is the case in most places where Choral Evensong is recorded.
Or is this too logical???
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Forgive me if this seems to be retacing others' sentiments but I have recently received a letter from the College saying that unless my subscription were renewed pdq, I would receive no further correspondence.
Yes. I too received what appeared to be an incredibly rude letter demanding my subs! That was the point when RCO and DQB parted company. The letter was (apparently) from Simon Lindley who was El Presidento at the time. If they are going to send letters of that nature out then I guess it won't take too long to close the organisation down. Seems that a PR officer would do well to look at the correspondence that goes out from the RCO office (wherever it is!)
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.... What is the RCO offering to me, and those like me? Why should I be interested in it?
Ermmm.... what was the question?
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So the RCO should just examine organists, not musicians... Hmm....
That is ridiculous and certainly taken out of context! The point made was that if a BMus takes in all these other areas of musicianship why should the RCO double up on this. When I did my BMus degree, I learned fugue, orchestration, harmony and counterpoint and a fair bit of history. It was expected if I was going to pass the exams. But then the RCO expects the same things!!!
??? What's the point??
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I agree completely with this view. For too long the instrument has suffered in the public eye with being associated with churches, etc..
So how would such an organ playing qualification look? Presumably divorced from choral training etc....??
Isn't it about time that RCO qualifications were based solely on playing the organ and on relevant paperwork? If a BMus requires orchestration and knowledge of composition, chorale-writing, string quartets etc, why on earth does the RCO need to duplicate all of this stuff?
Surely a better exercise (if compositional skills are necessary to be a qualified organist) would be to compose a chorale prelude after Bach or one of the Romantics or even in free-style. Where would string quartets and 16th Century two part vocal music fit in? Paperwork to include (as I think it does) a full understanding of the organ.
I assume that the ABRSM examiners don't have the same expectations of those sitting their exams to be cathedral/church organists/choir trainers; but the RCO seems to think that it is all about Anglican Organists and Choirmasters. Strange though it may seem, there are some organists who have no experience in directing a choir - nor in many cases do they even want to!! So quite why choirs and choral stuff has such a strong influence in the diplomas I know not.
It seems to me that the whole thing could do with an absolutely massive overhaul. Then (and only then) would a few more of us be enthused to apply ourselves.
Of course there is still another question that burneth in my mind and that is ....
How does an organisation gain/lose its Royal Charter?
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I really wish that was the case... but the first thing people look for is letters. Unfortunately for someone who has left it fairly late before trying to get onto the greasy cathedral pole, the lack of RCO letters on page 1 of the CV puts the application firmly in the dustbin. Much as I don't want to do it and can't even afford the membership fee, let alone the exam fee, I've got no choice as far as I can tell.
Should cathedrals and major parish churches be the preserve of the academic elite? Don't think that was quite what our L.J.C. had in mind when he told his disciples to proclaim good news....
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So how to rescue the RCO??
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All very interesting - I'm currently wondering whether to go for ARCO or the Assoc. Board diplomas, which focus much more on performance (which is, strangely, what I like to do) and don't require an annual subscription. The syllabus content of the RCO diplomas is kind of straying onto another topic so I won't go there - except to say I have no intention ever of attempting to learn to score read 3 C clefs - but as a keen and serious, but very much "non"-professional organist, I can't see that the RCO is offering me anything, except, as Barry says, the 'recognition' of the brand.
What is a professional organist these days? How many exist who make their living solely from the organ? Perhaps there is more money to be made playing a Yamaha than a pipe organ....
I too would much rather play the organ and work on repertoire and technique instead of struggling for endless hours over sight-reading tests and score-reading. The whole thing is ridiculous and pretentious in the extreme. Not all of us who play the organ (wish to) direct choirs (which I presume is what the score reading thing is for). If they want the score reading, then why not keep it for those who wish to do the CHM thing (or whatever it's called these days)?
Recent events at the RCO, combined with the continuing drop in membership and an embarrassing climb-down on the subject of the Goll organ, reveal that the wheel has fallen off this thoroughly discredited organisation. I heard that they even gave honorary Fellowships to distinguished organists who did/could not pass their Associate exams!
So what's it all about?
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The local associations (and I am a member of one) seem more concerned with the presence and nature of the instruments rather than the raising of standards of performance, and representation of the organist as musician. That, at any rate, is a personal view, and I recognise that there is not uniformity amongst local associations.
It still doesn't get away from the question that £68 is an awful lot of money to pay for nothing....
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I agree with the sentiments already expressed.
I have here on my desk a request for a subscription renewal, but I have been wondering what I get for it. I am seriously thinking of not renewing.
Support is one thing, but it is a two-way process. Though perhaps one should support in general, since the RCO is the only body nowadays with any interest in our profession.
Oh???? So what about the IAO, local organists' associations etc, etc.....
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I had a look at the RCO website.
One of the first things to be seen there is a request to support the college - and a request to join up.
It costs £68.
Living in North Wales, (on a clergy stipend), what does one get for this money?
It seems to me that the venue-less RCO is pricing itself way out of the market of its potential membership. How many people join, pass their diplomas, and then leave because they got what they wanted? Wouldn't the RCO be better off charging about £15-£20 for membership and keeping their members rather than upping the cost for apparently.... nothing. (?)
But I suppose that you will all disagree with this....
???
Royal College Of Organists
in General discussion
Posted
Why do people always have to lead these discussions off at stupid tangents? Maybe the issues don't matter to some people, but to others they are of the greatest professional importance. If this thread is constantly hijacked then it will be little wonder if people at the RCO take no notice.