john carter
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Posts posted by john carter
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When I began my studies with a professional photographer, on the first day he took me to the local market, bought a second hand camera for 30 shillings and there and then proceeded to shoot a couple of rolls of film. When developed, the pictures were superb. The reason for the exercise was to teach me that the scene and the person behind the lens mattered more than the equipment.
I have been working on the design of pipeless organs for over forty years and I regret I can hear many of the same shortcomings in the "hauptwerk" demos that I have been struggling with from the start. I'm sorry but I don't believe Hauptwerk is the breakthrough that some would wish us to believe, though I think it is a competent effort. Single notes with action noise, wind fluctuation and so on, can be reproduced to perfection, but in combination they still sound nothing like the real thing. Even the finest hi-fi system has never been able to reproduce the exact sound of a live string quartet in your living room.
But, that said, it's the music that really matters and any instrument in the hands of somebody who plays it with care and understanding will be able to bring pleasure to the listener. I would always choose pipes rather than loudspeakers, but if cash is short it is better to have a musical instrument rather than none.
JC
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I'm sorry, but I don't like this at all. I feel I was being shouted at, not performed to. The A minor Choral is very close to my heart and, to me, it lacked any sense of the emotion or darkness I feel it should convey. I am sure instrument and artiste are very capable, but I don't think this is the ideal repertoire to demonstrate either.
JC
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Sorry... wrong button and lost my reply, here we go again.
Don't get me wrong, I hate PP's rendering of prelude, fugue and variation with a passion and, so far, I share your view about the three chorals. But I support his view that convention sometimes needs to be challenged. What stirred me to write my earlier remark was the Grand Piece Symphonique, a work I never seem to have got right. It always seems dull and boring (like me, perhaps!) and finding that PP manages the first section a full minute faster has stimulated my grey cells and made me realise that there are things I haven't tried before. Sometimes it is necessary to hear or see something done differently to help one think about one's own work.
JC
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Personally, I would not bother to re-learn too much of them - it is only one person's interpretation.
My CDs (Franck/Pincemaille) arrived to-day.
I have listened to much of both discs and I intend to do so a number of times, before forming a firm impression. However, certain things struck me immediately. I can understand Pincemaille's reasoning behind these interpretations, although I do not necessarily accept his conclusions. Yes, there are a number of over-reverent, even ponderous recordings of Franck's organ works. However, some of Pincemaille's speeds seem too wayward for me - for example, the last section of the Prélude, Fugue et Variation just sounds hurried and a little scrappy. Furthermore, the speeds of several sections of the Trois Chorals are also too fast at times, for my taste; whole sections of the Troisième Choral sound almost bizarre - certainly rushed and lacking in detail. The last section, for me, had lost its inexorable majesty - personally, I was just glad when it had finished.
There are recordings by a number of other French organists (of equally high calibre) who also argue effectively (through their playing) for a somewhat different interpretation - which is no less valid.
Insofar as registration is concerned, for me, Pincemaille adds nothing to the music. His comment regarding the omission of the Hautbois because at S. Sernin the fonds are strong enough is, in my view, to miss the point. The Hautbois adds an almost indefinable edge to the prescribed timbre - which is absent in Pincemaille's recording. The factor which he overlooks is that with a Cavaillé-Coll instrument, French organists knew what to expect when drawing many different registrations. It is true that the Anches Récit were a particularly delicate sound at Ste. Clothilde - largely due to the unusually small box, which also made crescendi and diminuendi so magical there. However, according to written contemporary accounts, there is no reason to suppose that there were any great differences with other C-C organs, with regard to the rest of the instrument.
Furthermore, I remain un-convinced that the implied reason that Franck specified the use of certain fonds with the Hautbois (or with the Hautbois and Trompette) was to make good any thinness of timbre in the ranks at Ste. Clothilde. It is equally possible that Franck wished for a more mellow effect, in order that the melody might speak more gracefully. It should be remembered that on virtually any Cavaillé-Coll organ, the Récit Hautbois and the Trompette have rather less body and greater edge and brightness than their English counterparts.
In the forte sections, to my ears, the sound is far too mixture-oriented - even the chamades (8p and 4p, not two unison ranks, as given in the booklet) do not really dominate the tutti, as they do in the building and on a number of other recordings.
Please do not mis-understand me - I am well aware of the towering virtuosity of Pierre Pincemaille and of his phenomenal improvisatory skill. I possess several other recordings of Pincemaille's playing (including the complete Widor Symphonies - his interpretation of which I regard highly). It is simply that I feel that, in these recordings of the organ music of César Franck, he has done what Cochereau himself occasionally did; that is, he has allowed virtuosity and an almost blatant disregard for reasonable convention to be usurped by a desire to seek a completely new interpretation which is, at times, almost violently different. It is by these criterior that, for me, Pincemaille fails either to excite or to speak afresh. The music and its own message have become subservient to the wayward declamations of a new demagogue.
Notwithstanding, this is only my opinion. If you have heard these interpretations and you are freshly-inspired to play the music of Franck in a similar way, then I am happy for you. For myself, I am content with the interpretations of Maurice Clerc, also playing the great works of Franck on the Cavaillé-Coll masterpiece at S. Sernin, Toulouse.
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In fact I know very well Pincemaille whom I visit regularly at his ACC Opus 1 in St Denis. He plays like a real virtuoso and I'm not frightened by his speed as he has got an amazing technique!
Having got over the initial shock, the more I listen to these recordings, the more I like them. Back to the keyboard - I have a lot of things to re-learn.
JC
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You better try the very last recording of Franck's organ works by Pincemaille on St Sernin de Toulouse!
He explains why he has adopted rather faster tempi than usual.
I had a dream that I was travelling in a Paris taxi...Hurtling past places that I almost recognised. Not quite sure what to hold on to. Frightened that we would crash at any moment. But through the skill of the driver we just made it to our destination in one piece...
Then I woke up and found I was listening to the Pincemaille Franck!
I don't find this CD a comfortable listening experience and I'm not yet sure what elements to take from it, but I admire Pierre Pincemaille's courage in abandoning convention and interpreting the music in his own way.
The Saint-Sernin chamades are stunning. Perhaps every Paris taxi driver should have one!
Perhaps it is a sign that I am getting older, but I still prefer André Marchal's recordings at (the old) St Eustache, in which he didn't follow the composer's indications exactly, but achieved a beautiful sound in spite of the shortcomings of the instrument.
JC
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And now the same on an old 1931 nail by Annessens (my god...Awful, isn't it?):
http://www.andriessenorgelbouw.be/audio/ISM-ElgarNimrod.mp3
This recording from Ieper Cathedral gives me a very warm feeling. It is exactly my type of instrument. I would be interested to hear if any CDs are available.
JC
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Gentlemen,
I thought we had got rid of this acrimonious bickering when the Alexandra Palace thread was closed. I hope you aren't going to spoil it all for us again.
My belief is that the theatre was substantial in size. Perhaps somebody can inform us with facts rather than opinions.
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My copy of the Olivier Latry Franck arrived this morning. I don't know if it would sound better on SACD equipment, but I found it disappointing from start to finish. I didn't perceive a single spark of emotion or ray of sunshine anywhere. Nor did it sound like N.D. de Paris. At times, the melodic lines were almost lost. When I contrast this recording with the energy in the Vierne and Widor discs, I can't help thinking that the chemistry between composer, performer and producer was less successful on this occasion.
JC
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I was going to give everyone a stiff lecture about not poking fun at others with less ability - and then I listened. I think the internet shorthand is OMG!
I promise I haven't touched a drop of liquor all day, but even looking at the score I can't understand how he gets from the first bar to the last. And mentioning bars, I'm beginning to feel the need for one...
JC
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And then there's the story - possibly apocryphal, but one never knows - of the blind chap who had just a little difficulty with Compton's illuminated controls ...
Rgds,
MJF
Actually you could tell when a stop was "on" because the head of the button got quite warm. The disadvantage was the moment you didn't realise the Trombone was drawn because the bulb had blown!
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As a "Franck-ophile", I have numerous CDs of his works, all with different qualities. André Marchal at the pre-Van den Heuvel St. Eustache, Marcel Dupré at St. Thomas New York, MC-A, David Sanger, Peter Hurford, Eric Lebrun and so on. However this week, when I wanted to brush up my reading of the third Choral I returned as I always do, to the recording by Fernando Germani at Selby Abbey. He was the one who first introduced me to Franck, playing at All Souls Langham Place in the 1950s, and I have been hooked ever since. I am looking forward to Pierre Pincemaille's new CD which I expect to have something different from all those that have gone before.
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And, of course, the builder of the fine organ at Holy Trinity, Hull, John Compton and his right-hand-man, Jimmy Taylor, were also accomplished players.
Indeed, when I first went for a job interview at Comptons some forty-odd years ago, to be a competent organist was a condition of employment.
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Thank you for the information, Nick. It sounds a very encouraging project. Those of us relying on electronics don't fare too badly, after all it's the music that matters most, but it is nice to hear of somewhere that is going back to real pipes.
May I hasten to add that though the surname is the same, I have no connection with Andrew Carter of Wakefield - unless that is, my current family history research proves otherwise!
John Carter
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While visiting Yorkshire last week, I was shown the major rebuilding work at Dewsbury Minster. I understand there is a scheme to install a 3/31 pipe organ originally by Booth of Wakefield, later rebuilt by Conacher, ex St. Marks Church, Dewsbury. Do any of the Northern based contributors to this board know anything of this scheme or the organ itself. Is it a project I should support?
John Carter
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May I offer my sincere condolences to the Mander Family. Noel Mander was a great craftsman, who brought inspiration and delight to many of us who never knew him personally.
John Carter
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This has now been brought to the attention of Mander Organs, as the two individuals have gone too far in the last few days. Some of their posts have been deleted, and if the two individuals persist they may find that their posts are subjected to the ignominy of moderator filtering before they are allowed to appear on the board; or they may be barred (a handful of posts by these two were libellous).
A note to everyone: please do not hesitate to e-mail John Mander or me (mander@longitude0.co.uk), if you have concerns about any of the posts on the Mander Organs discussion board. We ALWAYS take these alerts very seriously and investigate STRAIGHTAWAY.
Moderator, Mander Organs
Thank you for intervening and more thanks to John Sayer for raising the issue. As a new user of the forum, I had almost given up in despair when I saw the content of some posts.
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Yes - my only reservation is that he changes the prescribed registrations - in one case, drastically. The Scherzo in the 2me Symphonie, is marked to be played with reeds 8p and 4p on GPR, with a similar sound on the Pedale, with all Tirasses. However, Pincemaille uses 8p and 2p flutes and basically misses the bright, commanding effect which would have been afforded by the reeds.
I have recently recorded the entire symphony (together with other repertoire) on my 'own' church instrument and I use the prescribed registration - I also managed to play it three seconds faster than Pincemaille!
The Scherzo does not, of course, appear in the later editions of the Symphony, being replaced by the Salve Regina. Personally, I think Pierre Pincemaille's approach is appropriate in terms of the overall mood of the work. I originally felt the same about the Intermezzo in the 6th. Symphony, where I have always gone for reeds and mixtures to blow the cobwebs away - but it does tend to make it sound pompous rather than playful!
However, the interesting point this raises is how much must we be stick rigidly to the indications of the composer? After all, every instrument is different and surely our aim should be to reveal the beauty of the music as well as we can with the environment and resources available.
I am looking forward to Pierre Pincemaille's complete recordings of César Franck's works due out later this year. I'm sure it won't be like those that have gone before.
The Worst Organ In The World
in General discussion
Posted
Very good pcnd, I enjoyed listening to these extracts. I think it's courageous of you to make these recordings available knowing how hyper-critical some of the contributors can be! The acoustic might not be very helpful in some ways, but it does bring clarity to the Mendelssohn which, in my experience, can easily become too thick. With such an unforgiving acoustic you certainly have to be accurate and this is a first class performance. Personally, I find the chamade a bit strong, especially in the second ff section, but it's impossible to judge on one mp3 extract. I'm not familiar with Widor's second, but this movement sounds quite delightful.
JC