Jump to content
Mander Organ Builders Forum

JWAnderson

Members
  • Posts

    230
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by JWAnderson

  1. Yes, it can be played on a 2 manual and pedal organ. I occasionally roll it out on my own organ of 2 manuals, which also has mechanical stop action - it's not especially hard to manage. Anyway, most English-style Choir organs don't equate to a French-style Positif in the French Romantic notion of terraced dynamics so even with a 3 manual English organ you'll have to diverge a bit from Alain's directions.

     

    This is interesting. I would be interested to know how you register this piece on the said organ.

     

    JA

  2. Evening all,

     

    I have just returned from the church and was having a look at the Litanies with the thought of learning it.

    However, the sheet music indicates that it would need three manuals (G.O., Pos, Rec), but the organ I play regularly only has two and I cannot easily get access to a three-manual organ in town.

    So my question is, does the piece work on only two manuals or does it really need three?

     

    Cheers,

     

    JA

  3. Happy Easter! I hope you have all hidden your easter eggs (preferably at the console, so you can find them during the services :rolleyes: )

     

    I just had a great Good Friday service. I turn up at the church at 10:20am ten minutes before the service is due to start, but notice as I pull into the car park there are no cars. So I go into the church and saw no sign of any service due to take place, so grab my music from the organ and go back to the car. A few minutes later I get a call from a nervous sounding minister asking where I am. I reply at the church. His reply: "Did anyone tell you its at the Presbyterian church?"

     

    JA

  4. Have any others seen the videos of Yves Devernay performing at NdP. They are very interesting to watch, especially seeing his assistant running round the console since there was no combination action.

     

     

    JA

  5. I have been thinking about this project a lot more lately and have some comments and answers to MM's reply.

     

    I quite like the forensic approach to organ-research!

     

    I suspect that the original specification of the Great Organ would have been something like as follows:-

     

    Double Stop Diapason 16 (Possibly on a separate chest, and made available at 16ft and 8ft on the Pedals)

    Large Open Diapason 8

    Small Open Diapason 8

    Hohl Flute 8

    Dulciana 8

    Principal 4

    Grave Mixture 12.15 2 rks

     

    However, it may well have been that the 12:15 Grave Mixture was not present, and the slide may have contained the 4ft Harmonic Flute instead, but if there wasn't a first Diapason (highly unlikely), the 12:15 Grave Mixture AND the 4ft Flute may have been included. I would suggest that, somewhere along the line, an 8ft Great flute has disappeared, and the current one is simply a switched extension from the 16ft, with perhaps a few pipes added at the top end. I say this, because in an organ of this size, a separte 2.2/3 and 2ft would have been a luxury, and almost certainly not in the original specification.I suspect that the Pedal 16ft Principal extension rank may well be the old Open 1 with a new bottom octave added. Of course, it may well be that the bottom octave is wood, which was the usual Brindley rank, and if so, then this would probably change to metal pipes at 8ft pitch and would therefore be a part of the original pedal organ.

     

    The original spec of the Gt was Open 8, Hohl Flt 8, Dulc 8, Oct 4, Harmonic 4. You are correct in that the original 8' Hohl Flute has disappeared, but only pipes 1-46; the top 12 pipes to top A were stoppered and used to extend the 16' Bourdon which was originally on the Swell organ.

    The current 2 2/3' and 2' ranks were added in 1971, but in the rebuild before that the 2' rank was an extension unit from which a Twelfth and Fifteenth stops were provided except that the tuning would have been incorrect on the 12th. The current 2 2/3' stop is placed in the space of the original Hohl Flute 8'.

    The Pedal Principal 16' is original with pipes 1-30 all being made of wood, something which B&F usually did(?), and pipes 31-42 were added in 1971 to create the Octave 8, the pipes for which came from a Norman & Beard Open Diapason No. 1.

     

    The only other "clue" is the composition of the Mixture quoted as 17,19,22, which would NEVER have featured on a Brindley & Foster organ. They followed the German/Schulze model of purely quint mixtures, and I very much doubt that they ever used the tierce rank, and certainly not in a chorus mixture. The existence of a 3 rks Mxiture (rather than a 2 rks 12:15 Quartane or Grave Mixture) suggests the use of an old, quite spacious area, such as that required of a first diapason.

     

    When I originally posted this topic I made a mistake with the composition of the mixture, not knowing that it was actually 19-22-26. Anyhow this was not an original stop and was added in the space where the Open Diapason 8' was. (I say space because I have also found out there are ventil chests instead of sliders :rolleyes: )

     

    With the exception of the 1.1/3ft stop, the Swell appears to be completely original, other than the re-positioning of the Oboe pipes on the windchest. At guess, the original Swell contained a 2ft Harmonic Picollo , which could have become the 4ft on the Great with a few new pipes, or may have been a 12;15 Mixture. It is even possible that a 2ft Harmonic Picollo was re-positioned as a 1.1/3 pitch (is it a harmonic rank?), or a more normal 2ft Picollo (non harmonic) was cut down a bit.

     

    You are again correct about the Swell being mostly original. The only additions/changes have been the Larigot 1 1/3' which was in the space of the original Bourdon 16', the Lieblich Flute 4' on a separate chest and the transposing of the Oboe, which is currently being re-transposed to 8', and also the removal of the Bourdon 16'.

    The Flautina 2' is an original stop, but is not harmonic.

     

    All this is inspired guseework, but I'd wager £5 that I'm not far out, because of the way Brindley & Foster built organs.

     

    They were very conservative (except in the use of quite complex pneumatic-actions), and became builders of more-or-less stock factory organs, using standard scales (Topfer?), and just plucking them form the pipe-makers list of standard bits and pieces. They also did it quite well, and resisted the worst excesses of late romanticism, at least until their later instruments, when stops like the Flute Majico started to make an appearance.

     

    Before suggesting possible improvements, I think a few words about B & F's work is apt. The Swell, almost certainly, will be less loud than the Great by a fair margin, and with rather thin-sounding reeds. There's nothing wrong with this, but it does mean that extensive modifications to the Swell are going to yield very little musically, because there is absolutely no way that this is ever going to be a dominant French (or Willis) type of Swell.

     

    The best feature of the current instrument should be the Great Diapasons, which will be quite bold and not voiced in a dull way at all, if they are true to form.

     

    This is what I would want to do with the Great:-

     

    Great

     

    Principal8 (returned to main windchest)

    Hohl Flute 8 (possibly 2nd hand B & F...lots around)

    Octave 4

    Harmonic Flute 4

    Fifteenth 2

    Mixture (15,19,22 possibly) 3 rks

    Trumpet 8 (new, placed on extension chest currently used by 'B' Principal)

     

     

    The Swell is not much of a problem, in that it is remains largely original for a B & F organ. Much depends on the character of the Flautina, which I would think is more of a diapason type of register. If it is a flute, I would add a 15th and get rid of the Larigot. If it is a true 15th in all but name, I would possibly just leave it as it is, but somehow get a 16ft octave to complete the Oboe. Without radically altering the whole Swell, and for the reasons already stated, the big Swell effect is never going to be obtained, short of installing all new reeds and an expensive new Mixture. Of course, if there is room to squeeze in a 19:22 Mixture, to replace the Larigot, that would be better. I wonder what was there before?

     

    The Flautina 2' as it currently is sounds more fluety than a diapason, but can work well in the Diapason chorus. I think that I would leave it as it is and if a Mixture were to be installed in place of the Larigot, I would include a 15th in that.

    The Oboe has just about been completely returned to 8' pitch and is sounding excellent, although we have had to replace the top nine pipes which were removed in 1970s. The Oboe will be much more useful at 8', especially for accompaniment. Suprisingly the Swell is capable of a "big Swell effect" and is something that I have found very useful.

    I think that there would possibly be enough room to place a 3rank Mixture in the space occupied by the Larigot, however it may be more preferable to reinstate the Swell Bourdon in that space.

     

    Swell

     

    Violin Diapason 8'

    Rohr Flute 8'

    Salicional 8'

    Voix Celeste 8' TC

    Gemshorn 4'

    Lieblich Flute 4'

    Flautina 2'

    Larigot 1 1/3'

    Contra Oboe 16' TC (orig. Oboe 8')

    Cornopean 8'

    Tremulant

    Super Octave

    Unison Off

    Sub Octave

     

    The Pedal is possibly the weakest department in the current organ, and my greatest objection is the use of the 8ft Great Principal as an extended rank. This makes the Principal "off chest" for starters, but also, means that the Pedal notes are the same as the middle octaves of the Great 8ft Diapason when the 15th and Octavin, ( 4ft and 2ft) are being used.

     

    In such a limited department, a reed is possibly a better alternative to this extended upperwork, and on this basis, the Great Trumpet (8ft), now placed on the old extension chest, could be extended down to 16ft with a new bass, and taken up to 8ft and 4ft on the Pedals. A better 4ft would probably ensue by extending the 8ft Octave further, assuming that is made of metal pipes, as I suggested, because in my experience, the 8ft metal octave first blends with the wood basses, and then becomes progressively more Diapason like as the notes go up.....a very nice feature of Brindley & Foster organs, and far better than those awful Octave Woods. Brindley's probably got this idea from Schulze at Doncaster, where there is one of the earliest

    extension pedal organs.

     

    The Pedal would then look like this:-

     

     

    Pedal

    Resultant Bass 32' C/D

    Principal 16' C

    Sub Bass 16' D

    Octave 8' C

    Bass Flute 8' D

    Fifteenth 4' C

    Octavin 2' C

    Trombone 16 (Ext. from Gt 8ft)

    Trumpet 8 (from Gt)

    Clarion 4 (Ext from Gt 8ft)

     

    I like the look of this, especially the idea of independant upperwork. However as I said above the Open Diapason 16 is all wood up to pipe 31 so this may or may not work. I had thought of the idea of adding an independant Principal 8' of metal which could be extended up to 4' at least. The 2' in my opinion is a bit of a waste and would be better changed as a Octave Flute 4' extended from the SubBass 16'.

    I think a Pedal Trombone would be a very good idea and there has been some thought towards installing a 16' & 8' unit with the Great.

     

     

    Finally, a third manual, which could be small, (enclosed or unenclosed) and perfectly functional.

     

    Knowing the sort of voicing used by Brindley & Foster, the following would make a perfect little foil to the Great, and would NOT be a baroque positive in any shape or form.

     

    Choir

     

    Stopped Diapason 8

    Nason Flute 4

    Principal 2

    Recorder 2

    Sext (12.17) 2 rks

     

    It would stand alone, act as a second chorus successfully and provide the solo (English) cornet effect, as well as add to the whole by coupling. Can anyone live without a 2ft Flute?

     

    Well, I like it anyway.

     

    MM

     

    Sorry for bringing this topic up again, but it is something that has intrigued me over the last couple of weeks.

     

    JA

  6. Happy New Year, everyone. May your organs never cipher, may your "prepared for" stops miraculously materialise and may the verger keep his hands off the blower switch while you're playing.

     

    Can pipe organs to replace digital organs miraculously materialise as well? :lol:

     

    JA

  7. Just thought I'd wish everyone on this board a happy new year and thank our hosts for allowing us use of this great resource.

    I look forward to reading more of the interesting, informative and sometimes humorous posts for another year.

     

    JA

  8. The inclusion of the Maori Horn on the Solo organ is interesting. I have a memory of hearing one of these whilst at school, played in our chapel by some relative or other of a Maori boy who was with us for 12 months, and recall it having quite a loud and strident tone with a distinct "buzz".

     

    Google produces this which seems to confirm that there would indeed be a buzz from the reed placed towards the bell end of the instrument. I like the part that tells how enemies were frightened by shouting curses through it. One can imagine it being used thus in the Concert Hall "Stop coughing in the stalls!...", especially if placed En Chamade !

     

    This rank must present quite a challenge for the builder and voicer to replicate and I should be interested to learn how the process would be gone through. It is presumably a type of Regal?

     

    P

     

    Yes, both this and the Maori Flute made of glass will be interesting to hear. As far as I know all of the pipes from the Maori Trumpet (Pukaea) all have individual carvings near the top of the resonator. Unfortunately its not "en chamade".

     

    JA

  9. Vox Angelicas are not always tuned as celestes, as on some organs they are tuned as on pitch ranks - often there is no other stop with which to 'Celeste' them.

     

    Yes, we have an example of this in Timaru. The organ is a two manual made up from various different parts of redundant organs with the swell having Open Diap8, Vox angelica 8, Lieblich flute 4 and Hautboy 8. I am pretty sure that the vox is tuned on pitch.

     

    JA

  10. Ha!

     

    I have seen at least one (slightly home-made) organ, where the Salicional and its undulating partner were planted side by side on the Swell soundboard - and the person who had carried out this mildly suspect work subsequently wondered why he was unable to achieve a good, gentle beat between these ranks....

     

    So if the organ has a two-rank Celeste controlled by one stop knob, presumably the ranks are placed side by side?

    I guess this would be easier than having to add another stop action for the second rank, but then the problem of one rank pulling the other into tune would probably occur.

     

    JA

  11. Well, I think I'd go for something like this:

     

    Great Organ

    Open Diapason 8

    Hohl Flote 8

    Viola 8

    Principal 4

    Mixture (12-15)

     

    Swell to Great 16-8-4

    Choir to Great 16-8-4

     

    Swell Organ

    Bordun 16

    Violin Diapason 8

    Rohr Flote 8

    Gemshorn 4

    Flageolet 2

    Hautboy 8

     

    Tremulant

    Octave

    Unison Off

    Sub Octave

     

    Choir Organ

    Lieblich Gedact 8

    Echo Dulciana 8

    Vox Angelica 8 (TC)

    Flute 4

    Clarionet 8

     

    Tremulant

    Octave

    Unison Off

    Sub Octave

    Swell to Choir

     

    Pedal Organ

    Bourdon 16

    Echo Bass 16 (from Sw)

    Violoncello 8

    Bassoon 16

     

    Great to Pedal 8-4

    Swell to Pedal 8-4

    Choir to Pedal 8-4

     

    I think most of this could be achieved using pneumatic action, but what does everyone think about the amount of couplers?

    I think that I may have over-coupled the organ a bit, but it could also add more flexibility?

     

    JA

  12. I'm sure we're talking about 137 - 136 is also in C major but is a more 'standard' Praeludium.

     

    Keep your registration scheme relatively straightforward - and make sure it reflects the structure of the piece. I often play with the plenum until the beginning of the fugue, then simply cancel the mixture and add the trumpet if it wasn't there already. It's a bit like Harald Vogel's idea of moving from plenum in the free sections to what he calls 'consort' registrations in the fugues - but without the extensive change of registration. Then back, and perhaps add something for the conclusio (ie following the end of the chaconne).

     

    Note also the time signature of the Chaconne - 3/2 is not quick and the tempo marking (I think it's Presto) is somewhat spurious.

     

    Good luck with it!

     

    Bazuin

     

    Please forgive my ignorance, but I assume by plenum you mean 8' to mixture? I tried this while I was practicing last night and adding the mixture seemed to work great in that building.

     

    JA

  13. Two quotes from Virgil Fox:

    About a Schlicker 16p reed "It sounded like a rattle snake pissing down an eve's trough."

     

    and about a E. M. Skinner Tuba Mirabilis "Its like forcing an elephant through a mattress."

     

    :rolleyes:

     

    JA

  14. What sort of organ?

    And do you mean BuxWV 137? (With the pedal solo to start) - Apologies if you don't 136 just doesn't ring bells for me.

     

    Thanks for the replies so far.

    Yes, sorry I did mean BuxWV137 with the pedal solo.

     

    I will be playing it on a two manual with the following:

    GT; 16 Bourdon, 8 Princ, 8 Stop Dia, 8 Dulc, 4 Oct, 4 Harm. Flt, 22/3 Naz, 2 Fifteenth, III Mixt

    SW; 8 Violin Dia, 8 Rohr Flt, 8 Salic, 8 Voix Cel, 4 Gems, 4 Lieb Flt, 2 Flautina, 11/3 Larigot, 16 Oboe, 8 Cornopean, trem

    PED; 32 Resultant (very effective), 16 Princ, 16 Sub Bass, 8 Oct, 8 Flute, 4 Fifteenth, 2 Octavin

     

    I realise that it would be difficult to suggest registrations on this organ without actually hearing it, but suggestions welcome.

     

    Cheers

     

    JA

  15. Hi everyone,

     

    I am supposed to be playing this piece at a performance in 13 days, and very much to my great ability to keep track of time I haven't payed much attention to the due date so am trying to polish the piece up in a bit of a hurry.

     

    So has anyone got any tips about this piece, particularly about speed, phrasing and registration, that they could pass on?

     

    I will be very grateful if anyone has any tips.

     

    Cheers

     

    JA

     

    (I should've mentioned its the BuxWV 136)

  16. Thanks to all for their opinions. So, to summarise - straight/concave is the most preferred (by 4) for reasons of comfort, accuracy, space etc. Radiating/concave is advocated by two as the pedalboard most often encountered in the UK. One prefers straight/flat for not encouraging poor posture. I know it's not exactly a large enough sample to be generally representative, and I'm sure personal preference and dimensions have a strong influence, but nonetheless this is a rather interesting result. I'm probably going to go for straight/concave, leg length not being in short supply and posture being important to me. I'll see how it goes...

     

    Now - 30 or 32 notes? :P

     

    I played an organ last night which has a straight/concave pedalboard and I have to say that it was one of the most comfortable pedalboards I've played. The only problem with the console was that the Swell pedal was just slightly too far to the right and a full organ toe piston right next to it. Oh and better not forget the crescendo pedal... great times.

     

    JA

×
×
  • Create New...