andyorgan

Surely one of the issues here is about choice. If all churches go the same way in a particular town or city, then congregations are denied a choice about the style of worship they prefer. As a student in Edinburgh, when not on playing duty I could go to high anglican (excellent music), middle of the road anglican (never my cup of tea, neither onething nor the other), student happy-clappy anglican (always good cup of tea), solid methodist (brill hymn singing and long sermons, good choice of females!), independent pentecostal (does the happy clappy stuff properly, very long sermons!), etc, I could go on. My point is, how dull would eating out be if every restraunt offered the same menu? And, had I not been introduced to the English choral tradition in my Anglican church, how would I have ever heard the organ or choir, let alone wanted to be in it and learn it?

Yes, apologies for missing of Wills. I play a few of his pieces; I think I already mentioned on another thread about the Variations on Amazing Grace, and the Five Pieces got me through some graded exams some years ago. He also wrote a piece that demonstrated the organ rather well. I seem to remember it being on a theme by Purcell with short variations demonstrating different stops. I think I have a recording of him narrating it somewhere.

I'm not sure you would! 20th century Dutch and Belgian organ music was the historical topic I had to do for the FRCO last year. I spent hours pouring over Kee in the RCO library before it moved, and I'm sorry, but it just wasn't worth it. (For the record, I gambled and put all my efforts into Peeters and Jongen, and came up trumps on the questions, huge relief!) I'd certainly mention Francis Jackson and some Hurford. The Preston ALleluias is also an excellent piece, and Malcom Archer has produced a fair amount of organ music. Doesn't Dan Locklair play quite a bit, and there's a fair amount of his organ music knocking about. I think the next OR is being based on American organ music. Perhaps we should be asking, why there aren't any? I think if you were to delve, we'd discover that our most talented organists, many of whom occupy cathedral positions, just don't have time to compose like their predecessors. Ask Francis Jackson how many health and safety meetings/taster days/parents evenings he had to go to when he took over at York, or how much paperwork there was to do. I'd wager not as many as the current postholder does!

Thank you for this, most interesting. I knew William Dore a while ago and his father was active in the Yorkshire music scene when I was but a little boy...

Yes, I tried this a few years ago to raise money for the rebuild of the organ. I gave people a fairly free hand, and I included a repertoire list for them to choose from also. I also said I was prepared to learn some new repertoire if they had any other requests. As it turned out, the recital made a fortune for the organ appeal (and people gift aided, so that increased the value of the donation) and the only new piece I had to learn was a rather odd trumpet tune by Stanley. I had feared someone might make me learn fistfuls of Reger, or Messiaen, but they didn't! Hot on the heels of that, when the organ was done, about three years later we invited people to sponsor their choice of hymn on a hymns cd which we were doing to with the choir. Also brought quite a bit in as well. PS That wasn't the Philip Dore related to the ex Direcotr of Music at Ampleforth, Dore, and his son who is currently on the staff there, William?

Agree, not a great tune. I did once play the Wills 'variations on amazing grace' with the George Shearing prelude in a recital. Both give you a new prospective on the possibilities of the tune!

I know we've had some swaps (if that is the right word) of hard to find organ music on this site. So I wondered if anyone had any Elmore that they might be prepared to share? Most of it is out of print and I have exhausted all my usual North American suppliers to try and lay my hands on some. I have the Rhythmic Suite (jolly good), any offers on the following: Fantasy on Nursery Tunes Rumba Triad for Organ Night Song Children of the Heavenly Father Donkey Dance Holiday for Organ Post or PM me if you can help! Many thanks

I was always taught 100 was the Toredor March from Carmen.

Gosh, I can come out of the closet at last! I also learnt from Ars Organi and had to keep it to myslef for years as no one I knew (other than those taught by my teacher) used it. It took some getting used to and I wouldn't recommend it for all learners, but I was glad I had used it. I do remember the tenor clef making a particularly early appearance in studies, which frightened the life out of me at the time.

Back on topic! It reminded me that a few years ago, the Vicar of Pershore Abbey (without discussion with the PCC) banned the local choral society from performing Karl Jenkins Armed Man Mass because of the 'Call to Prayer' in it, unless they took that movement out. This, despite it being perfomed in Coventry cathedral if my memory serves me right, a building that promotes peace. I'm not aware that any other church has banned it for that reason, but I may be mistaken. Any thoughts?

Thank you for clarifying this so succinctly!

Thank you for this. How do you explain the BBC's actions then in not approaching me for permission? Do you think they are a bit more slack at a local level (we're talking BBC Hereford and Worcester here). DOes it include conducting? I had to conduct a choir for a programme on Tessa Sanderson in Leeds Parish church back in the 1980s. The lengthy document I had to sign for the daily service (which in those days was only 15 minutes long) seemed vastly out of proportion for what I actually did; one hymn and a voluntary, which when I listened to it on the radio, they faded me out after 2 bars!

I wish I could find the programme, do you have a link? I disagree with your Carmen comment. Its a regular of mine (twice in the last week!) and it always goes down a treat, particularly when you know there will be a number of organ 'virgins' there. I know some recital organisers have taken to vetting programmes to make sure they aren't filled with esoteric organ music that will only appeal to buffs. I think it is very relevant to places like our Town Halls up and down the country, because transcriptions were a staple part of the organists and attendees diet when they were first put in. Lemare, Best etc, do we honestly think they would have had the huge crowds they did had they played non-stop Reger and Messiaen (if they had been written), regardless of how good the music actually is? Recitals need a good balance, appropriate for the audience. I'm sure TT will give a great recital, he always does, and he's particularly adept with transcriptions. I haven't heard him do Carmen, but Meistersinger and Tannhauser are regulars, as was William Tell a while ago.

Actually, that has reminded me about that Trollope mini series, The Choir. I remember most of it was filmed at the cathedral that will sell itself for anything, and although there were quite a few choir practice shots, there were a couple of scenes in the cathedral itself with singing and organ.

What kind of community is ordinary where organists engage in naughty liasons...? I'm afraid I wouldn't trust the results of the investigation if they were treating us to Mess or Math. Bach, yes (what's that PC stuff about Baroque music being good for the brain?) Not strictly a film, but I do remember an episode of Scooby Doo where they thought there was a ghost playing an organ in a spooky old house, but it turned out to be organist playing organ in neighbouring church that was connected by an underground passage. It didn't win any Oscars.

I had similar problems. Bride and groom would say they weren't having a video, but some old granny would always trun up and video, including an occasion when a relative actually walked between the choir stalls filming each child in turn, DURING THE SERVICE!! Mostly it was a wheeze not to have to pay the extra due to the choir and organist (miniscule in comparison with the flower bill!), so in the end, rather than charging the videoed couple double, we charged everyone one and half times the rate, then they could do what they wanted. Parents of the kids were always onside because if they didn't send in the consent form (on which we made it clear they might appear in a video), thier child didn't get selected for the wedding, and therefore missed out on the cash. I also had to sign for Songs of Praise and Daily Service (they could use my playing at any other time, no other fee due etc.), but strangely enough, local BBC radio never did this. I can't imagine the rules are any different, but they were a little more freer with the rules.

I disagree, I've seen and met organists who look like that! Its a bit like saying the joggers off the 118 118 advert put people off running. From the same stable, isn't there a bit in 4 Wedings and a Funeral from St Barts in London where there is a shot of the organ?

Neither Klais, nor Glasgow, but on the wonderful (and soon to be restored) organ in Paisley Abbey. If you're ever up there, go and here it.

I think the fact it is a Catholic church says it all (and a handily placed advert for Laser Hair removal pops up under the story, just in case life isn't going well!). There is one internet company running in this country which prides itself on its Evangelical Christian owners and founders. "Linette Servais, 50, is in trouble with her priest for playing with more than her organ." What an unbelievable headline, not even worthy of The Sun!

As no recognised dictionary I have to hand contains 'gathering notes', maybe we can define it as 'any note or notes played before the start of a verse to encourage the singing to start'? That would take in one note, a couple of notes, or even a whole chord. Sing of the Lord's Goodness def requires above average competence; (1) to be able to play a hymn in 5/4 throughout and (2) make the best on the organ of what is a poor piano part in the hymn books I've seen it in. (I do find, now that you've mentioned it, that if you play the Dave Brubeck riff throughout, the cong get the idea). My kids used to like doing the little descant in the last chorus. They sing it rather well at All Souls and I there is a marvellous version for orchestra, I think done by Mr Brooks of Langham Place on one of their Prom Praise cds. Mr Blick, I think you're being either a little unfair (I rather like Steeleye Span) or tongue in cheek?

I think this is the 'gathering note' we were all refering to earlier in the thread.

Couldn't agree more. I had 35 kids from 7-17 and although there were allowed sugary Rutter and Archer on special occasions, it was the Victoriana they loved the most. We did stuff outside church, secular repertoire which they liked as a change, but that was very much an add on. Kids like good music when they've been educated and taught it properly. I'm not wholly in favour of the 'the church isn't what it used to be' argument. I'd be worried if it was. We have to move forward and on because if it hadn't moved forward in the past, we'd still be siinging monophonic plainsong all the time. Much as I enjoy that, I'd be secretly missing, Boyce, Wesley and Stainer and all the other composers who move in and out of fashion.

Yes that is the very same group. I have an Beaumont album on my iPod, complete with Hammond organ (purely for educational purposes!) which the pupils at my school think is hilarious. We all only detest it so much beacuse it is so recent, give it a hundred years or so and we'll hold it in the same reverence as Stainer (product of its time etc.) and Eliot Gardiner's successors in the early music camp will be giving period instrument performances of it in cathedrals up and down the land to sell out audiences!

Back ON topic, cynic, As an eminient concert organist, do you play any minimalist music?

More thoughts on hymns in general as the discussion seems to have widened: -Gathering notes: As a teenager I did mornings for the Anglicans and evenings for the non-conformists and gathering notes were a big no no in the morning, and a yes yes in the evening. Perhaps that is still the case, even if it is a slight generalisation -Fanfares/twiddly intros: Special occasions only, rarity value important. Never during Advent or Lent, always did it on Easter morning for Jesus Christ is ris'n to day, often when have Crown him with many crowns or suchlike. I must even admit to the ultimate bad taste very very occasionally of having the last verse up a semitone after a suitably subtle modulating passage. However, only for Love Divine (Blaenwern), Jesus Christ is risn today (means cong have to go for top F for Now above the sky he's king, very effective) and At the name of Jesus (but only if forced to have it to Camberwell). -Last line playovers: Again, not very often, and I've already mentioned Woodlands and Michael for harmony reasons, but if the cong already know the tune very well, I don't see a problem, it adds a bit of variety. I do it for Gopsal and for Darwalls 148th as well. And I agree with Lord of the Dance last line. -I know Shine Jesus Shine has its detractors and it doesn't work in every parish situation, but my cong always joined in enthusiastically with it, and it IS possible to play it well on the organ, despite lots of people (including clergy) saying it only works on the piano. -Inevitably this will all lead on to last verse reharmonisations. Again, doesn't need to be done for every hymn. But I'm in favour. I'm amazed how many hymns CDs by very reputable cathedral choirs with very talented organists and excellent choirs are hugely dull and conservative when it comes to recordings. -What about 'covering the action' at the end of the offertory? I've heard very bad attempts and its better to have silence, I think, even if the clergy complain. Thoughts?