ajsphead
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Posts posted by ajsphead
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Couple of thoughts re the pedal 32 flues. I did wonder if one would be a "polyphone" and the other a "cube" so remaining independent. Also, I always wondered if a firm would be insightful enough to develop the polyphone into a 2 note unit to go all the way to CCCC overcoming the limitations related to scaling. Scaling the existing Trompette Harmonique into a Pedal Bombarde ? Only thing I would wish for is the crowning V+ rank Cymbale which Comptons did so expertly from a variety of ranks none of which you would have thought were great candidates in their own right.
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Yes, a change of stated intent, and if this is what the builders and the cathedral were working towards then it's very understandable. There's nothing new here but the melding of different philosophies is certainly new for the UK and well done to all concerned for breaking the mould of the traditional British cathedral organ, much like Downes did in '71. It's extremely enlightened and given the overall brief, very logical. my only query would be where the position of nave division will be.
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Had it been played on a harmonium where would we be then? Surely the point of the thread was the piece of music (as per the title) not the medium upon which it was conveyed.
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18 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
This is a long reply to the above posts - sorry.
Temperament and pitch are independent in terms of which are the good and bad keys. If you lower the pitch of an organ by a semitone, for example by tuning it to A = 415 Hz instead of the usual A = 440 Hz and then re-set a temperament such as meantone, the good and bad keys are unchanged. This might seem counter-intuitive, but it's because whether a key is good or bad depends on intervals - the relative frequencies of two notes played at once - rather than on the absolute frequencies of single notes.
Thank you Colin. Perhaps I was not as precise as I could have been. If I tune an interval at A440 from C to G for argument's sake in temperament "T", the rate of beat will be N. Agreed, if I then tune C to G at A415 in the same temperament, the rate of beat will remain N. However when I listen to the interval C to G perceived at A440 but tuned at A415, ie C#/G#, the rate of beat and hence the aural perception of that interval will be different. My point being that our ears have become so accustomed to hearing sounds at or about A440 that our perception of "out of tuneness" will be very different to that of Wesley's.
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I wonder if it is important at this stage to add a second line of debate, hitherto touched on but not stated explicitly. It's impossible to discuss temperament without discussing pitch, the two are, obviously intertwined. Was Wesley's F# the same as our F# now. He could easily have been hearing the F# minor Larghetto in what to us might be anywhere from F minor to G minor. Without pitch as a reference point, it's really hard to discuss temperament with any certainty.
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It's good that this issue is generating debate, the issues are both musically and historically complex and clearly motivational. Is all art worth saving because it is art? What is an organ conceptually and where does the balance of prevailing argument lie? My own sense is that the school is served by intelligent professionals who have, I would suspect, debated these very same issues before agreeing to spend large sums of money with some knowledge of the words that may utter forth from people on the subject. They have their reasons and a right to express them in the manner they have chosen to do. My only concern is that the instrument should have remained whole and been transplanted as an entity which it clearly is.
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Duck Son & Pinker Bristol was in the arcade in the Broadmead shopping area of the city.
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And so much better at Guildford now than they were originally.
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5 hours ago, S_L said:
Being devil's advocate - how do you know?
By looking at it.
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20 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:
The question seems to me to be... "IS it a very fine organ?" It has to be a matter of concern to the cathedral authorities that something so new and so important a part of the cathedral's entire operation should have proved to be out of action for a considerable period of time. Or is it actually a very fine organ which has been plagued by third party issues encroaching upon it and putting it out of action? Despite so many folk vilifying the digital organ world, it seems to me a mighty good thing that they have such an instrument installed there that they can fall back on.
Well, personal opinion I know but it's never done very much for me. I do think it has been the recipient of more than it's fair share of circumstances conspiring against it, but it's a well made modern organ.
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19 hours ago, Nathan said:
The keyboards and pedalboards were replaced (Old ones stored inside the organ) and now electric as with the stops, all using solenoids. That all connects to a computer ((I assume) that sorts it all out. Hope I've got the correct terminology for this. Looking in the organ, electric right up to the windchest (soundboard). You can connect midi to the organ, which will play all notes and stop selection. Only thing that doesn't work is swell pedal as that's still mechanical. If that helps work out how much is e/pn.
So:
3 new keyboards, new pedalboard, new solid state transmission, new capture system with thumb and toe pistons, about 30-35 new stop solenoids +/- slider solenoids +/- new chest magnets and all new wiring for £60K. None of this should be affected by heating systems except warping the keyboards/pedalboard if in direct line of fire from blown hot air. However CB is correct, without precise detail and an inspection it's impossible to tell. I would suggest that you call an independent organ adviser to inspect and report.
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You say it was converted from t/pn (I assume) to e/pn. If so how much of it was converted? At £60K I wonder. New e/pn note actions and solid state transmissions just shouldn't go wrong in this timescale if installed correctly.
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8 hours ago, innate said:
I’m fairly sure that the old “blockwork” organs had no sliders; if there was wind and you put down a “note” all the pipes sounded. When they introduced the first slider it would, I imagine, have had the function of “stopping” some of the pipes (probably the highest ones) sounding so the lever was probably called a stop from the very beginning. Whenever that was.
Absolutely correct. The stop was invented as a mechanism for stopping off individual ranks of the blockwerk. There is a very good book, recommended in the past here by JPM, a copy of which I have somewhere in the fathoms of my collection which describes these developments. Somewhere around 1400 I think.
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9 hours ago, S_L said:
I'm grateful for that. Thank you, Darius.
There's a chap, I think his name is Tim Trenchard, who might have the specs and can build them. He was looking after the Downside organ so plenty of experience there.
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9 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
New 32’ case? Maybe I have misunderstood. I thought the existing case at Wells was rather fine for a modern effort, particularly the double east front in the quire. Would that be for a revised west-facing case? But the 32’ is a puzzle. From memory the height of the vault at Wells is 65 feet, or thereabouts, and the architectural proportions have to be respected.
Nothing as yet on the H&H website, nor about Norwich and Winchester which were understood to be waiting in the wings.
The existing case is just a reworking, albeit done well of the 1910 case. Look at the amount of wasted height above it to the top of the arch which would give space to get pipework to use the vaults as a sounding board and project over the strainer arches to get down the nave. You could stack 3 divisions with modern winding systems in that space. The height of the the current 16' s in the case shows you can easily get a 24' pipe in the height available, remember you can make a centre tower too. As far as I can see and hear, the only way you'll get sound past the strainer arches is to go over them. They make a very effective wall - looking at the video with the 70's additions, is looks like H&H came to a similar conclusion. The nave triforium from what I remember would be a no go, not enough space and narrow openings to the arches and the nave itself is, by compaarison with other places with organs on the pulpitum, not that long.
Look forward to seeing what they come up with.
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New 24' or 32' case, total internal revision to create an instrument that speaks effectively both ways with enough punch to get past the strainer arches, modern winding system, nave console maybe. Yes I think a totally new organ re-using existing material sympathetically but not slavishly is probably the only reasonable course of action.
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7 hours ago, Vox Humana said:
Guidance is there for people's safety - in theory, anyway. Throughout this pandemic people have been ignoring governmental safety advice when they find it inconvenient. Nothing new there. But the issue here is: why is the government treating amateur singers and professionals differently? What is the logic? I can guess, but had better not do so here.
I might suggest that professional singers could reasonably be requested to perform lateral flow tests to inform their Covid status in a way similar to other professions. Amateurs not so.
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11 hours ago, Cornet IV said:
How heartening to read in this morning's Telegraph of the restoration of the Wimborne Minster organ contract going to Manders.
The picture is of one Stephen Hayley with an "orchestral trumpet" but in the background, there is the instrument disporting a rank of these mounted en chamade. I find this a little curious because whilst I have known many Spanish and other 17th century organs with reeds thus mounted, I have never met a 17th century English instrument so equipped. I suspect this must be a later addition. Yes?
The organ is effectively a 60's JWW, 1965 I think, so no surprise to hear that the winding system is receiving some attention. The orchestral trumpet belongs to that episode of work.
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The first organ I ever played was reputedly by one of the Allens. The organ builder at the time strenuously denied that it was by Vowles. Early 1840s in a very protestant church about 15 miles from Bristol. The organ was originally placed under the tower at the back of the West gallery. Sadly it was changed rather unsympathetically by a local builder in the early 1970s and no longer exists, the church having gone the way musically of so many of that style having previously had a full choral repertoire sung by juniors and adults.
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Anyone with access to a copy of Laurence Elvin's book Pipes and Actions with find some useful detail about the instrument, written with assistance from Roger Taylor.
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4 hours ago, Cantoris said:
From memory I think it may have been Trevor Tipple from Worcester, who took care of the Downside Compton?? Trevor now retired of course but he may well know the extended ranks of pipes there. He was awarded MBE for his services to Organ Building I believe.
It was Roger Taylor, ex R&D local rep who looked after it until he retired. With Julian Mcnamara as DoM I don't foresee any worries about the instrument.
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The temple church
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7 hours ago, John Robinson said:
Yes, the same problem was mentioned quite a while ago with regard to York: the organ being loud enough to fill the nave would be overwhelming in the choir. I think it was probably Francis Jackson.
I don't doubt the great man's words, but organs need not always 'roar', surely? I have often thought, and of course I stress that I am no organist or expert, that it must be possible to select appropriate stops to handle a nave full of people, yet to choose fewer stops to accompany a smaller number of people in the choir.
Of course, if both choir and nave are used concurrently, the problem may be more difficult, but how often is this actually the case? I understood that (at York anyway) services and recitals are usually held in the choir OR the nave.Am I mistaken?
How wonderful if this was the case in the UK. Unfortunately many of our instruments in larger buildings simply do not possess the ability to roar down the main axis of the building and flood the space with sound. Our European and U.S. brethren seem to be far less regularly afflicted. It's always possible to use fewer stops, but once you've maxed out barring the Tuba that's about it.
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Stainer & Bell edition page 4 bar 1 RH written E flat ?should be E natural but at the end of the same bar E natural is annotated. Every rendition I have heard plays the first E as E natural. Thoughts please.
Gloucester Cathedral
in General discussion
Posted
The Downes/HNB had 1 flue sound board at the upper level behind the West case, 1 behind the East case with the reeds in the middle.