ajsphead

Would somebody please find me a good organist as I do love a proper Wurlitzer. Wouldn't do down the pub.

I have back to back carol services to do on Sunday, the last one not finishing until about 21:30. They're having Mathias Invocations after the first one, and the Percy Fletcher after the second, as it's pretty easy and a good crowd pleaser. Not sure if you knock them up in 2 weeks, but I've also used the Howells Paean and Langlais Hymne d'action de graces 'Te Deum', neither of which is particularly difficult. AJS

How(el)ls with laughter. AJS

What made me think it was a pedal action is that I counted 32 trackers going up from the roller board. Also it looks like a main pedal soundboard to the right, hence my suggestion of a small 'kleine' pedal. It does look like the basses are in the middle, but if it's a manual division, where's the rest of the action ? I suppose if I miscounted, it could be the action to a short compass manual division, certainly the square beam looks key scale. Still don't get why when you make the action, you reckon you could be so far out with your measurements that you would need 2 sets of holes. If it's a fixed length action, this might in effect be the adjustment to prevent ciphers, but you would get a very uneven key touch as a consequence. However it could be a modern reconstruction of the original roller arms which had 2 holes, and to be faithful to that, this has been replicated. AJS

Curious. The trackers, wires, arms and rollers all suggest this is a pedal action. The boring and countersinking of the back hole suggest that another wire could go through, so a further rollerboard arrangement might be a reasonable suggestion. But, this action looks finished and regulated. What we don't know is whether it is or not. The most logical answer to me is more than one pedal soundboard, and the links to the smaller one have not yet been installed. This might allow for different levels of pallet movement too. I wouldn't want to see the pedal trackers operating at an angle to line up with the back hole, and I would question their effectiveness in opening a single pallet if they did. As I said, curious. AJS

The H & H rebuild at Gloucester was 1920, so Howells's formative years and early compositions would have related to a Fr Willis, not the H & H. But I still hear his work, and hear the building, and think that this has as much to do with what imbued him. AJS

It's not that easy to find Arthur Harrison organs that can be used in an untouched state, ie the player chooses not to use the 'xxxx', but all the fundamentals are still there. I can think of 5 off the top of my head, but none of buildings sound right. Problem is that you need to try to replicate the Gloucester ambience and acoustic too. The latter might more easily be done using a turn of the century Willis. I can only think of 1 AH where the organ can be used appropriately, and the building is about right. AJS

It happens on all the Comptons I've encountered. AJS

With regard to what's pre Vowles, you're pretty much right. You're also right re the metal Vowles pipework owing to the development of spotted metal during the mid Victorian period. We should remember that this was a Rolls Royce Vowles. I wouldn't be too quick to judge what was revoiced, and how much, by JWW, nor necessarily too quick to decide it must have all been loudened because the cathedral nearly doubled in size between 1861 and 1907. If you pay very close attention to the relationship of what was added to what was left, the wind pressures, tip sizes and treatments, flue and top lip positions, nicking and cut ups, you'd be very careful before suggesting JWW did very much to the Vowles fluework. You must also remember that you are listening to fairly early Vowles fluework, when the influence of his father in law, whose name temporarily escapes me, but it could have been John Smith, could still have had a bearing. It is definitely different in quality to the plain metal mass produced 1880 to 1900 Vowles sound which is much more common. The earlier work is a pure English developed English derived mid Victorian tone, no direct French or German influences here. You must also remember that you are listening to the acoustic, and you musn't be fooled into thinking you're only listening to the organ. Re the action, it's just the 6 main underactions I'm thinking about - counting the Solo and Choir as two each, reckon you could leave the touchboxes and coupling machines. Even putting relays into what's there would achieve something positive, and that's totally historically authentic. Wouldn't worry too much about changing pipe speech. A tpn action is still an on/off action, and the Great is pretty snappy as it is. At this point I should declare a love of Tubular Pneumatic actions, but not a misty eyed misconception that there aren't some horrors out there. AJS

Notwithstanding the overall contribution from our hosts, the main basis of the Great diapasons is definitely Vowles with some old basses, the flutes are a mixture of old and JWW, but the Swell flues are almost entirely Vowles. The reeds are all JWW, as are the heavy pressure flue stops. The choir is a mixture of old, Vowles and JWW, the pedals are mainly JWW and the solo is all JWW. However, the chorus sound that you really hear is mainly Vowles with JWW reeds (and the acoustic). As far as the action is concerned, it can be set up to work and it does work - on a good day it is as prompt as many others (even the Swell). Problem is on a bad day it's worse than most others. It's also not uniformly good and/or bad. Anyone who says it doesn't work is wrong, what it is not, is reliable and predictable. Solution to (try to) keep the historians happy and (definitely) make it work. Space and pallets/bottom boards permitting, rip out as much as necessary and replace the underactions with a design that works well, properly relayed. To my knowledge, this has never been done before. Now who would fund that, and who would take it on I wonder ? AJS

But 15 minutes is not long enough to get to and from the pub, and have a decent pint. AJS

I'm with Ian on this one. The proximity of the Nave roof gives the organ a sounding board. The case roof was a lid. Some organs need them, others do not, you have to experiment and go with the solution that sounds right, not the one based on dogma, particularly if it is misplaced. I actually think, on the whole, it speaks both ways successfully, although we might choose a different disposition now, the principle basically works. As Ian has said, if you don't like certain stops, you don't have to use them. For me, I would probably have gone for a Solo reed before the full gamut of mutations, and a full length 32 borrowed from the 16 reed. This doesn't stop me from respecting the reasons why we have what we do. Ignore whether you like the sound or not, and consider whether RD and JN produced an organ that will lead a nave and accompany choral singing in the choir. In principle, I think they did. AJS

Absolutely right Nigel, and the business of drowning choirs also relates to many chancel derived positions. Indeed, in my local Cathedral, the nave congregation have oft been heard to say that they wish they could hear the choir during sung services, but can only hear the organ. Unfortunately, whilst we continue to adhere to typical organ building designs and practices, these principles will continue to dominate. Some of the principles were challenged at Gloucester and Norwich for example in very differing acoustics, and I think with some success. The sad thing is that it is not difficult to achieve, barring space for larger pedal pipes, and without stuffing the cases so full that nothing except a tuba can speak clearly. We could stop thinking about 4 divisions on 4 manuals designed in a traditional way. A pulpitum organ can speak both ways with equal success if it is designed to. Problem comes with nave choir stalls, which can produce a limiting factor on the accompanist, but unless someone can come up with a way around it, I suggest this might just be a prompt for imagination. AJS

Pm sent AJS

I wish I had better sightreading. It's always been my weak point, preventing me from reaching the higher levels of diploma. So every piece I pick up new, I have to learn; slowly, so that, even at the first reading, you make no mistakes, and insert fingering from day 1. You never practise beyond a speed, combined with a level of complexity of process that ensures no mistakes. I remember reading somewhere that the human brain learns everything only once. Beyond that initial stage, everything is a change. Learning once is a much quicker process than re-learning, so I aim to get it right, however tedious and laborious, at the first attempt. Because of the pressure to turn out music, I have never had much chance to practise the sightreading to improve it. Amazing thing is though, that I can pick up a piece I've not seen in 10 years, and within a couple of sessions of about an hour, it back up to performance standard, so after playing for 25 years, you end up with a big and accessible repertoire. Doesn't stop you from hankering after a new piece to add to it though. AJS

Picking up the strands of the discussion, I must say that we have some fine examples, both past and present of the reasons why many instuments are as they are. Action based on personal opinion, much of it distinctly pneumatic. Full organ in a cathedral designed to accompany the choir, well I'm sorry but words fail me. This is not to say it's not a fine instrument, but it is an inadequate one because of someone's desire. One day, probably in the dim, distant, postscript to the world, we will agree that there are two broad courses of thinking. One's opinion, which one is entitled to have, whether informed, intelligible and interesting, or not, and what is the right thing to do. It is very hard not to let the former cloud the latter, but unless we want to avoid people in the future talking about our decisions in the same we talk about our forebears, then we are going to have to change our focus. We have an issue with historic organs, and what if anything can be done to them, and what indeed constitutes such a thing. I fear that, as time passes, more instruments will be categorised this way incorrectly, and the chance to respond to the need to change will be lost in many circumstances. The positive side is that we should minimise repeats of past vandalism. The thread on Rostock is particularly interesting here. To prevent me from going on about it, I shall limit myself to say that my argument is that we should remain enlightened. What must matter to those instruments outside this category is something which I think is still not heard and understood. What is right for the building and its foreseeable use should be our driving force, not our opinion of a particular sound, style, builder, etc. If new, we must make our instruments fit their surroundings and if existing, and not in the historic category, adapt them so they do, and have the confidence to say when they fail, and the drive to make them better. This is not PC in the organ world at the moment, but times change and I am a patient man. We know enough now not to make the same mistakes as in the past and we must ensure that we do not, but what seems to have happened is that we have been wrongfooted by the historical debate, and are still learning about where the path is through the trees. There are so many ways of respecting and improving that we can do it now, but until we utter the words 'It doesn't really work and we need to do something about it' we will not have the drive to find the path that reaches a good conclusion. We are happy to say the first half of the statement, but often lack the confidence to 'risk' saying the second half. I have many personal opinions, but more often than not choose to keep them to myself as argument based on opinion is ultimately fruitless. Postscript: do we want to be known as the neutered generation ? AJS

Willis ones I can live with and appreciate as well as some mid 20th century attempts. It's the horrid clanky things that are basically a moderately scaled cornet I don't cope with. Yes, I know all about authentic sounds and historic integration, doesn't mean to say I have to like them. This goes for organs across Central Europe and the USA as well as here. Not normally this sweeping, but very little irritates my aural aesthetic as much as these things. AJS

Well that's fascinating, but I haven't changed my opinion. Para 2 above indeed reinforces it, the design is a muddle. Put aside its historical significance, as that colours judgment, and look at what you are presented with, and the design does not gel in the way that neo baroquised romantic organs don't gel or indeed 'neo romanticised' organs for that matter. I am not surprised that many people thought it was a modern organ design, and I completely agree with your sentiment and rationale. Herein lies my problem with much modern organ design. Your description in the second half of para 2 is very true, and the second half of para 1 suggests how easily people are led into believing that this is the way forward. I firmly believe it is not, and indeed would suggest that my sample is a better illustration of a modern organ with a German bias. Most aspects are historically rooted, there is a little tonal innovation, and a concept, (obviously partially having been done before eg Fisk in Dallas) which all fix it in a philosophical structure designed to meet its brief and that surely must be point 1. Although, the whole solution as presented here I have not yet met, indulging in a little innovation is no bad thing necessarily. Your brief, albeit from a distance gave some clear guidelines, but specified a modern organ. Surely there is a test of a modern organ illustrating a way forward without tacking some elements from one school onto a larger whole from another which is what, as you quite rightly say, is so common now. It is called evolution, but in this type of case, I would argue that we just go around in circles, occasionally squeezing them into ovals. We have been doing it for years, and I'm not quite sure where we are going with it as we still seem to be making our buildings and customers fit our concepts instead of the other way around. I honestly think we are sadly lacking in vision, but we are safe and comfortable and above all, not collectively or openly challenged. AJS

By vertical in this case I meant the physical disposition. It looks a bit like tone cabinets and quasi werkprinzip. Will be interested to see if the main chorus has another division plonked on top of it, I do hope not. The sound and concept of organs like this are at their best when they can breathe and develop their tone, and are not projected at the room. I am very happy though to bow to the expert ears that will have heard the space first hand and may have a different view because of it. AJS

Slider seals on a Romantic soundboard, and surely I didn't see a row of lever arm magnets. I'll let them off the slider solenoids. Just an illustration of how far you take a pure philosophy. Design looks a bit vertical to me for the concept as well. Will be interested to hear how they sell the instrument. Leathered lips and double risers does not a Romantic organ make. AJS

So what they are after is a large modern organ with a German bias in a large church with a choral tradition and high class music making; West gallery position. Lots of things which don't seem to make a lot of sense to me - none of this is meant to be critical in a critical way, more a matter of commentary. Don't understand the HW. Sort of 2ndary choruses at 4' & 2' but not at 8', and a mix of wide and narrow scale within that. What's a Nachthorn Gedackt. Surely it has to be one thing or the other. Cornet 3-5 I've never understood. What's the point of a Cornet 3 from 1-19 ? Fractional length reeds at 16' and 4'. In that building with that size of chorus??? Problem with the relationship between HW and RP. Foundations, reeds and upperwork out of balance if this is a North German, pre 1850 or so, bias concept. I'm taking it as such, because the building is big enough to do so, and the general feel of what's presented above gives me that impression. Could be totally wrong though. Assuming the Zartflote is not of the quinty type, as that would be pointless. A single 4' principal, and small mixture against the big HW. Wouldn't specify it myself. The SW seems to be a mix of narrow scaled fluework at 8' & 4'. The Querflote and Waldflote look totally out of place, although I know that a 2' flute of this type is quite common in more modern German biased instruments. Don't see how it really links the unison ranks and the mixture. Also a flute 2' with a Sesquialtera, and why a sesq under expression, and for that matter, why a sesq and a Tertian on the RP ? duplication?. On a modern organ we should at least get our terminology correct. Where's the Vox Humana? The BW seems to be the nod to choral accompaniment, so I generally don't understand the upperwork. If it's meant to be a north German BW as well, I dont' think trying to do it in this way will be a happy compromise, and the singers will come off second best I suspect. Tierce without a Nazard, ultimately how useful will this be. Is the chorus narrow scale or wide. Blockflote and Nachthorn-Terz suggest wide. Superquint and Scharff suggest narrow. Flageolet tends towards wide, and is the Gemshorn going to be wide or narrow. I'm sorry but it all seems like a bit of a dog's breakfast. The 2 enclosed divisions don't seem to sit comfortably with each other, and if you're accompanying a choir, the wealth of 8's and 4's is nice, but it all begins to sound the same when you put the 2 divisions together in one list. 2 Clairons on the 2 enclosed divisions? No solo reeds. The PED seems to suffer similarly to very many German biased organs in having a lack of good fundamerntal tone at 32' and 16', particularly at 16'. This is a big building and if it's full with singers, there's no substitute for a good Open Wood, which doesn't have to be fat, boomy, waffly, or even called Open Wood. For a Pedal organ of this size, it seems somewhat underdeveloped. I'm tempted to suggest there is a general lack of foundation work, given Pierre's description of the interior fixtures and decoration. It could all get a bit harsh. On the other hand, a bit of well scaled high pitched work, put high up in the case could give the pleno a real kick. I could carry on further, but I think I've made the point. Have produced a sample spec that deals with these issues as an example of what could be done. A distinct relationship between HW and RP, and between SW and BW is achieved. The bias is still clearly German. It seems much bigger, but is not, owing to the disposition of the Bombarde as a Resonance extended from the Pedal to give the wider scaled foundation for French music. Each division also has a distinct clear identity. These are some of the things I think we should be addressing in answering the question 'What is a modern organ', ie, using our accumulated knowledge, and ability to go beyond our forebears not to be linked to a style of the day, and integrate these into one instrument with an identity of its own, but designed to primarily fulfil its brief, not its player, consultant, or organ bulder's whim. In an instrument of this size, there need be few, if any compromises, or for that matter, pointless duplications. I have taken the lead from the ideas listed originally, so the thought/concept is not entirely free, but hopefully more relevant. It's difficult in written words to communicate the extent of thought necessary to produce the end result, dispostion as suggested by Pierre's description, so the above is an inevitable synopsis. HAUPTWERK Prestant 16 Principal 8 Geigenprincipal 8 Holzflote 8 Gedackt 8 Octav 4 Blockflote 4 Quint 2 2/3 Superoctav 2 Mixtur 19 22 26 29 IV-VI Cornet 1 8 12 15 17 TG V Posaune 16 Trompete 8 Tremulant Flues Sub Octave RUCKPOSITIV Prestant 8 Holzgedackt 8 Quintadena 8 Octav 4 Nachthorn 4 Octav 2 Quintflote 1 1/3 Sifflote 1 Tertian 17 19 II Scharff 26 29 33 36 IV Dulzian 16 Krummhorn 8 Tremulant SCHWELLWERK Spitzflote 16 Rohrflote 8 Gemshorn 8 (generally narrower, and with an audible taper) Gemshorn Celeste 8 Spitzprincipal 4 Koppelflote 4 Nazard 2 2/3 Principal 2 Wald Flute 2 Tierce 1 3/5 Mixtur 19 22 26 29 IV-V Zymbel 29 33 36 40 IV Fagott 16 ) Trompete 8 ) open parallel flat tipped shallots Klarine 4 ) Tremulant Sub Octave BRUSTWERK Quintadena 16 Diapason 8 Rohrgedackt 8 Viola 8 Vox Coelestis 8 Principal 4 Flauto Traverso 4 Flageolet 2 Kleinmixtur 15 19 22 III Cor Anglais 16 Oboe 8 Klarinette 8 Vox Humana 8 Tremulant Octave Sub Octave Unison Off BOMBARDE (high in North case) Violon 16 * Prestant 8 * Flute Harmonique 8 Octave 4 * Octave 2 Grossmixtur 15 19 22 26 29 V * Acuta 26 29 31 33 36 V Bombarde 16 * Trompette 8 * Clairon 4 * Trompeta Real 8 ) not chamade Clarin Brillante 4 ) * extension of Pedal PEDAL Major Bass 32 Untersatz 32 Holzprincipal 16 not large scale, bearded Principalbass 16 Violonbass 16 Subbass 16 Octavbass 8 Violon 8 wood Bourdon 8 Superoctav 4 Offenflote 4 Flachflote 2 Hintersatz 15 19 22 26 29 V Posaune 32 Posaune 16 Trompete 8 Shalmey 4 Bombarde 16 Trompette 8 Clairon 4 Obviously there is a lot of precise detail missing, so think of this as a taster. AJS

In this case I tend to agree. This is a great opportunity to have a good Hill organ working like it ought to. The Hill concept can be restored, and there's a potential for money in it if you do. They are, after all, a third of the way there. If it is thought lacking in power for leading a nave congregation, a point with which I entirely sympathise, you can go down the nave organ route, or, as is uncommon in the UK, although the principles exist, as in St. Paul's, have a specific congregation leading soundboard placed as far West as possible within the main body of the organ, speaking West and designed and voiced with one main purpose. If it's bold enough, it'll work, the Hill is left as a bespoke instrument, but it can do its job better. Early days, but the point can be, and is worth arguing. AJS

Thanks Pierre. Roughly what is the height, width and depth available? Disposition of the stops and the position of the soundboards are intrinsically linked. AJS