contraviolone
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Posts posted by contraviolone
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Having listened to this organ in person on several occasions, I must agree with comments regarding the power of this instrument. I wouldn't mind if it made a pleasant sound, but since it does not the overall impression is not good. Recordings also confirm this, but it is even worse when attending a recital or service. I wouldn't be surprised if the Henry Willis III stop was the best stop on the organ!
Why they employed a Dutch firm in the first place beats me. They should tender for a new contract with French builders, and throw the whole instrument out.
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7 hours ago, James Atherton said:
you've hit the nail on the head with the word 'space'. Had we had more space in that ancient and tiny organ case the specification would have reflected that. As it is we have had to think hard about how we provide a flexible instrument for accompanying the liturgy, with all the appropriate gentle colour that was lacking in its predecessor, whilst still having a thrilling recital instrument. Extension has been used in the colouring stops, whilst keeping the integrity of the principal choruses. A 16' based Nave division, 8' based Great, Swell and Chaire.
An independent pedal is not necessary for a cathedral organ, however the Nave on Pedal transfer will provide independence for the pedal line when required, as the Nave Grand Chorus is based on the 16' rather than 8'
Thanks for that. I always thought even a modest independent flue chorus on the Pedal was a good idea? I'm not sure why a cathedral organ wouldn't need it? I suppose I must be a child of the 50s and 60s Organ Reform Movement. I will be very interested to hear the results, especially those 32' extensions. It just shouts out John Compton, which is no bad thing. I've always admired the Compton consoles as well. You should really go visit Downside Abbey!
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8 hours ago, father-willis said:
And here it is - no longer a game!
http://www.nicholsonorgans.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/GC-website-spec.pdf
I am pretty pleased that I was no near the mark on this one. Feeling proud!😆
I wonder if Father Willis I would approve...
I was going to mention in the other thread but will add it here. I suspect the major driver for all the derivations/extensions/polyphones is not just about the issue of space but saving money. I doubt whether Gloucester has the money otherwise. In which case why not go electric as well? This works quite well at Blackburn Cathedral, which also has a very good acoustic. This also saves money and can work. You still keep the ancient case and pipework, as will be the case at Gloucester, but have a polyphone/electric additions behind the facade. A sort of 1920s giant electric/polyphonic theatre organ with a few old pipes chucked in for good measure. The emphasis today is to go electric, so why not?
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38 minutes ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
Has anyone actually analysed the ‘composition’ of the pedal organ? I’m unsure whether sjf1967 is also pulling our legs!
It’s now for James Atherton to ‘come clean’.
The composition of the Pedal organ looks straightforward.
There are only three fully independent stops: Open Wood 16 (the old Bishop stop), Subbass 16, and Flute 4.
The rest are either derived, or extensions/borrowings from elsewhere.
The two 32' flues are extensions as a polyphone setup. This was much used by John Compton in his theatre organs.
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Just now, sjf1967 said:
No, it's the real specification. Why wouldn't it be? Have you read the detailed rationale for the design?
The rationale is open to individual interpretation and opinion.
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1 hour ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
This, surely, is a spoof in spite of appearing on Nicholson’s website? It’s signed off by James Atherton in the same month as he asked whether he might put up a suggested specification on the ‘other’ thread “Gloucester Armchair Game”.
Quite honestly i don't know what to make of it. I've always been a firm believer in an independent Pedal organ as much as possible (space permitting of course), but the derivations and borrowings on this one defy belief. I'm not keen on reed chorus extensions either. I would imagine Ralph Downes will be spinning in his grave at least 24,000 rpm, which is about as much as a modern powerful turbo on a Ferrari. Seriously though, have we come full circle? Is this the reincarnation of John Compton and Robert Hope Jones?
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7 hours ago, John Robinson said:
He gave it a hefty blow with his crozier. I'd be surprised if there isn't a distinct mark on the case which, I think, is nothing short of vandalism.
Completely agree. There is no excuse for this ridiculous behaviour.
Yet another item on the long list of reasons for me for not supporting the Church of England. It's full of weirdos and yobs.
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An interesting 'behind the scenes' video of Anna Lapwood and the organ curator delving into the interior of the Royal Albert Hall organ. Impressive to see the two Great divisions, and the unenclosed reeds of both the Great and Bombard tubas.
The organ does appear to be very dusty though. Obviously not cleaned since the rebuild of 2002-04.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq0s17bzdLI
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On 04/10/2023 at 20:59, peterdoughty said:
I don't have a suggested scheme, other than magically un-melting and reinstating the Downes instrument complete with the later additions! (I say that with a mixture of profound regret and a slight hint of a grin.) But since this is all imaginary anyhow, to it I'd also be adding a large, blending resonance / accompaniment department which would entirely satisfy the Cathedral authorities in terms of liturgical needs. In my daydreams, everyone would then have what they wanted and Philip Prosser, Ralph Downes and several others would not be spinning in their graves or doing the living person's alternative! (By the way, if anyone fancies saving for posterity a copy of the guide to the old instrument, intended for visiting organists, it's here.)
But to be a little more exact here about one stop, namely the big solo reed, because sbarber49 asked about the St John's Cambridge Trompeta Real. (There'd be plenty of reasons for the College to keep that one where it is.) But yes, what about the Gloucester Trompette Militaire - was anything written for it during its time? I seem to remember Jonathan Hope saying something in the Priory DVD/Blu-Ray organ tour about it, perhaps that one note was specially voiced a bit more assertively than the others due to its use in the opening flourish of such and such a particularly favoured piece, but I can't put my hand to it just at the moment. If that was so, I'd hope for a nice new reed of sufficient vulgarity to replace it!
With regard to Gloucester. The removal of the 32' flue in the Downes rebuild (and discussed in another thread) seemed a bit unnecessary to me, so I would certainly like to see that reinstated. I suppose this opens up the question of how effective the original stop was, given its location high up somewhere in the triforia (that being the bottom octave extension of the 16'). This again opens up the problems of an organ case positioned centrally on a quire screen. There never seems to be enough room, and such expediencies of placing pipework elsewhere never really works out that well. Rather than speculating on the specification, it will be interesting to see how Nicholson's approach the requirement to support both the choir to the east of the screen and the congregation on large occasions in the nave.
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On 29/09/2023 at 08:33, handsoff said:
Going to the far limits of the fantasy realm I would clone the C - C in St. Ouen, fix the winding and anything else required , give me the keys, empty the cathedral, lock the doors and let me out tomorrow.
Completely agree with regard to St Ouen. I gather the organ is currently undergoing a sympathetic restoration, with the stop list kept exactly as it is. I think many of us are looking forward to the results!
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8 hours ago, bam said:
What is posted is usually worth reading - I would much rather not have to wade through lots of 'non-posts'. As an example I found the thread on the new Gloucester Cathedral organ fascinating, especially when read in conjunction with 'Baroque Tricks' and the booklet produced at the time of the HN&B instrument, when it was clear that those involved were absolutely convinced that what they were doing was right.
Contrasting with the situation today, when It is clearly thought that everything was wrong!
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On 10/05/2023 at 21:42, James Atherton said:
Precisely! Come and hear it, rather than damn it before it has even been built. (I started the voicing the new organ this week, a stop for the Swell for those who might be interested....)
Very interesting information. I do enjoy the occasional video you make for YouTube. Glad you are retaining the Bishop stop. I'm sure the finished results will be very interesting, I'll be there to listen when all is done!
Talking of videos, very much enjoyed your latest video from Radley College. Impressive tuba, bright and powerful:
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13 hours ago, John Robinson said:
I have never been particularly keen on Ralph Downes, but this is something I was unaware of and find disgusting.
What would he achieve by destroying them? They could be used elsewhere, or perhaps retained in safe-keeping in case future ideas might suggest their restoration.
Actually, the latter possibility is probably the reason for his selfish act.It's certainly a strange and unfortunate episode. I had much admiration for Ralph Downes. I attended his last recital on the RFH organ in the 1980s, it was one of the 5.55pm performances. He gave a superb recital, and finished with Widor's toccata from the 5th, which was just incredibly performed for a man of his age. But some of his views and actions are hard to understand. As you say, he could have just left the pipes there disconnected. It just comes across as being vindictive, which is a real shame.
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10 hours ago, wolsey said:
While there are some pipes of the 32' Double Open Wood in the south screen, are not the longest of them lying horizontally behind the west side of the screen?
Yes I believe you're right. I was thinking of the bottom notes of the 16' Diapason. The majority of the Open Wood pipework is in the South screen pit, but even the lowest notes (at least one I recall from the photos) is bent at right angles so not to appear above the quire screen.
I have visited the organ loft once back in 1991 and did notice the open wood pipes laid horizontally to the right as you look at the console. I asked the late Sir Stephen Cleobury what he thought of this arrangement. He gave me one of those wry smiles and said there was no other place to put them, but the result was effective in the chapel. Not sure though what it would be like at the console!
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4 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:
Now, that would be fun!
Yep I agree. Space has always been a problem with the organ at Gloucester, so if I had any input to the scheme I would:
1) Reinstate the 32' flue bottom octave in the triforium.
2) Make the space and depth considerably bigger in the Quire screen as they have done with King's College Cambridge, where by digging down forming a pit they've housed the bottom notes of the 32' reed, the bottom notes of the 32' Double Open Wood, the bottom six notes of the 16' Double Open Diapason, the Solo box including the Great reeds and a few other bits and pieces. At Gloucester you could dig down even further and go for a 64' reed. Just imagine that!
3) Increase the depth of the organ case to allow lots more pipe work.
Honestly anything is possible if you have the will and the dosh. Problem is, how would you guess the spec with all this subterranean pipework hidden away? There you go, that's my little scribble on the back of the fag packet for the day.
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7 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
The complete Order of Service for the Coronation of King Charles III in Westminster Abbey on Saturday 6th May 2023.
https://www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2023-04/23-24132 Coronation Liturgy.pdf
Thanks for posting that.
Clearly the initial reports of the Coronation service lasting around one hour were inaccurate. I'd imagine the service will be at least two hours, if not longer.
I am also intrigued that the Prime Minister, as a Hindu, is reading a lesson from the Gospel. That must be a first. Clearly his temporal responsibilities transcend his religious beliefs.
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2 hours ago, James Atherton said:
Some, but not all of the case pipes, will continue to be used in the new instrument. The decorations were beautifully preserved by Anna Plowden in 1971 however the rest of the pipes (i.e the back and tuners) were not. They are in extremely poor condition, and very sadly Ralph Downes had the east front pipe mouths cut up (as in the cut ups were increased) an act of incredible and totally unnecessary vandalism. Had they tested the pipes first they would have known that they had to be on a lower pressure than he had set. He set the wind pressures for the whole organ, before any pipes had been made, or the front pipes had been tested! I can't imagine this sort of thing happening these days.
The reason Willis chose not to use them was because they wouldn't speak on the higher pressures his organ was on. He used greater pressures than was usual for him as he was aware of the space limitations of the ancient case and was worried his organ would not be loud enough.
We will restore the backs and tuners of the pipes that are going to be speaking. We can't add back the material RD had removed sadly, but the pipes will have a solidity and will be correctly stayed up, something they had neither of previously. Some of the pipes were screwed directly into the back of the organ case, if you can believe that!!
Very interesting, thanks for that.
Talking of 'ancient' pipework, I do hope the two manual diapasons from the 17th Century will be preserved and used again? They were demonstrated by Jonathan Hope in his youtube video of the organ, and they sounded fine to me. At the other end of the timescale (so to speak), I would also hope the recent additions to the organ will also be preserved. In particular the 32' reed and also the pedal mutations, useful given the lack of a 32' flue in the instrument.
Talking of which, I do remember one aspect of the rebuild of 1971 that probably reveals another aspect of RDs aversion to the Anglican choral tradition. This was the removal of the 32' flue which was an octave extension of the 16' flue. It was located in the upper galleries, and even though tucked away was apparently quite effective. There was astonishment when these pipes were removed, and consternation from several quarters. One argument for their retention was the dramatic use of this 32' flue in the more sombre episodes of the Anglican chant. When this was mentioned to RD, he simply said "why would anyone want to do that!" Probably sums up the entire ethos of the 1971 rebuild.
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9 minutes ago, James Atherton said:
This is indeed our official position. We are refurbishing the ancient case and case pipes and renewing the rest. The organ will be completed in time for the 2026 Three Choirs Festival.
Hi James,
Thanks for your posts, which certainly clarify the position.
Without wishing to come across as being a bit 'difficult', the replacement of the organ (with the exception of the cases and the facade pipes) is effectively a brand new organ. As Choir Man has pointed out, this does appear to be at odds with the published statements from Gloucester Cathedral.
Personally, having sung with the instrument, I never found it a problem with regard to instrumental support in the Quire. I'm sure the new instrument will be better for this, but I'm not really convinced that scrapping virtually the entire instrument to achieve this aim is justified. I actually liked the Gloucester organ, but I'm well aware that there are many who didn't like it at all.
Anyway, good luck with the rebuild. Gloucester does have a superb acoustic, so that's always a good start for any major organ project!
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11 hours ago, OwenTurner said:
Looks like the case pipes will be looked after. See if this link will resolve for you.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/355269498442029/permalink/1238034526832184/
Thanks for that. The various threads on that page certainly make interesting reading.
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4 minutes ago, John Robinson said:
Is he joking? With the repetitive phrase(!), one could wonder whether this is actually true.
Was there any historic pipework in there before any work started?Case pipes are 17th Century. Ralph Downes brought them back into use in the rebuild 1971. It may be a joke but it is not a funny one.
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1 hour ago, OwenTurner said:
From James Atherton head voicer Nicholsons on facebook:
"It doesn't exist any more you'll be pleased to hear. The pipework has been removed and melted down and the cases are to receive a brand new instrument by us (Nicholson & Co.) in 2026. It will most certainly not sound anything like its predecessor you'll be glad to hear."
Explains a lot then. Brutal the word that comes to mind.
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First I've heard of the current scheme being 'scrapped'. All that's currently described is a rebuild but it is interesting that no specific mention has been made of retaining the current specification. It all comes across as being a bit 'cloak and dagger'.
What is surprising is the long lead time to get the project finished (2026). If it were a straightforward rebuild retaining current pipework it would be both cheaper and quicker to complete. So there is the possibility of a complete rebuild with a new spec. I'm sure this will please some people as, judging by past comments on here down the years, some just don't like it.
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I can remember the late Simon Preston conducting the service from the Quire stalls, but disappearing for the last hymn to play the voluntary.
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15 hours ago, Paul Walton said:
Photos I've seen were posted by Sean Tucker but not sure if they're public.
Paul
Thanks for that. Looking on the Manders facebook page there is a photo of the new Choir 8' Tuba. It does seem strange that both the new Tuba and the Pedal Clarion (presumably at 4' pitch) were omitted on the NPOR entry. It makes you wonder if anything else is missing?
Youtube Archive of Recorded Organ Music
in General discussion
Posted
That's quite an early recording by Pierre Cochereau though, before all the work carried out in the 1960s. I suppose from a historical perspective it is quite interesting, if only to prove that by the 1950s the organ was falling to pieces.
By far the best recording by Pierre Cochereau of BWV565 was made in 1973, on the Philips label. I have both the vinyl and CD recording of this performance, and for me this represents the pinnacle of PCs abilities as a performer, and also the very best of the Notre Dame de Paris organ before all the changes made in 1992:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ti8f0GIGw