contraviolone
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Posts posted by contraviolone
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6 hours ago, S_L said:
I'm afraid, as Cantoris has said, abuse happens in all institutions whether they be RC or otherwise and in the public and private sector. The difference seems to be to me, and this is not a sectarian remark, that the Church of England washes its dirty washing in public whereas the RC church tries to hide it away! I speak as a Roman Catholic! And members of our profession are not immune from carrying out this abuse as has been evidenced by the number of organists, both Cathedral and otherwise, who have been convicted of serious crimes against children in the past few years. What is even more worrying is the way that the perpetrators of these crimes are welcomed back into the fold as if nothing had happened! Abusers remain dangerous - even after they have served prison sentences! The Downside abuse happened a long time again and the school has, since, put in stringent procedures to deal with the protection of children. All of us who have or have had contact with young people need or needed to be aware of our own safety. We were all advised, for instance, never to be alone in a room with a female student without there being a door with a window in it!
As for the Abbey church - I don't know the buildings but perhaps, when the brethren eventually do leave, it will become the school chapel!
It would certainly be a very large and impressive school chapel!
Looking at the organ details on NPOR, the stop list does look impressive, being a very good example of the Compton expertise of borrowings and extensions. A modest 38 ranks becomes an instrument of 142 ranks! Interestingly NPOR does not indicate where the borrowings etc are derived. Of course quite a few borrowings/extensions are obvious by deduction, nonetheless I am very surprised the derivations are not annotated?
https://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N05561
Would be interested to hear from members who have played this instrument. There are several recordings on youtube and I must say the tuba alone is impressive!
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22 hours ago, Barry Oakley said:
Simply that news of the monks leaving en-masse from Downside has given rise to speculation about the wonderful Compton in the abbey church.
I suppose we should be asking what will happen to the church itself? Will it become redundant or revert to a fully functioning church within the RC diocese?
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2 hours ago, swalmsley said:
IMO, the later wooden 32' extension to the CC Bombarde 16' is no great loss. I think it sat at the sides of the main case, which space is now to be opened up in the return to the original layout.
32' reeds on CC organs were pretty rare beasts, especially on mid-sized instruments such as MTH, so from a "faithful restoration" point of view it's hard to argue.
On the other hand, a CC chorus underpinned by a CC-style 32' is perhaps one of the most spectacular sounds achieved in organbuilding, and one which vanished from this country when the Sheffield organ burnt. There are a mere two possible opportunities to resurrect it, of which this would have seemed by far the more promising. So ultimately I feel that a "faithful but with the addition of a spectacular copy, which purists are free to avoid using" approach would have been best.
I agree, an extension of the 16' Bombarde in the Cavaille Coll style would be the best way forward and I'm sure would be superb. I'm sure Nicholson's would have the expertise to do this.
As it is, the proposed new specification looks very interesting and I'm sure the end result will be splendid.
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The new specification for Manchester Town Hall is certainly trimmed down from its current form.
Perhaps no surprise given the later additions and the plan to restore the organ to the original Cavaille-Coll specification. A little surprised though that the 32' reed on the pedal is not being retained. The hall is quite a large space and I would have thought a 32' reed would be both useful and desirable. I'm sure Nicholson's could have fabricated an extended octave for the Pedal 16' Bombarde.
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4 hours ago, Barry Oakley said:
I think in reality the true picture now is: F H Brown Incorporating Mander Organs
The name of the merged company from 1st October 2020 will be Mander Organs.
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9 minutes ago, John Robinson said:
I'm sure we all echo that. Wow! What a turn up for the books!
I hope I'm not expecting too much but perhaps to follow this good news wouldn't it be great if, after this covid thing is long gone, there is a possibility that Mander Organs might be resurrected?I think the point John is that Mander Organs has been 'resurrected'. It will just be under different management.
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This is really excellent news!
I also hope the forum will continue as before. There is such a wealth of information on here it would be terrible to lose it all.
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56 minutes ago, Martin Cooke said:
That's very good to read, CV. As the person who raised this thread I am really saddened that the good folk above have decided not to keep up their membership of the new forum and that someone has accused us of moving too quickly. I am genuinely at a loss to understand their reservations and, furthermore, I am sure that Noel Mander and John Pike Mander would be thrilled that despite the difficulties that have hit the company, the highly successful forum lives on in its new incarnation, and would give it their generous blessing.
In suggesting that we 'got on with it' I was simply anxious to avoid a situation whereby we woke up one morning to find this forum closed and no idea where to turn to find all those with whom we have enjoyed corresponding for many years. The alternatives, prior to what Steve has set up as the natural sequitur to this Mander forum, gave little hope, frankly of meaningful engagement and correspondence, and I think it is brilliant that he has made something happen so quickly and that a good number have moved across already.
Thank you Martin. I completely agree with everything you say.
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21 hours ago, philipmgwright said:
I am with S_L on this one..a little too much rush to create a substitute that does not in my opinion quite reflect the unique position the Mander Forum has/had . Since there was no appetite from other organ builders to take it over, its time is over. Just like Rotunda the Mander Forum was a snapshot in time.
Good wishes to all
Stay safe in these troublesome times
Not sure if such negativity is helpful.
If members wish to continue the 'spirit' of this forum from a different platform then I think this is an excellent idea. The new forum also clearly states at the home page that the new site is a 'continuation' of the Manders forum. There really is far too much negativity doing the rounds at the moment.
The new forum is an excellent idea and those who have set it up should be heartily congratulated.
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6 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
Sorry, I'm not convinced about ownership by the C of E but that isn't really the topic. Before seeing Colin Pykett's reply, I made a quick search of the Charity Commission in relation to the Abbey Choir School. This reveals that the trustees of the Westminster Abbey Choir School Bursary Fund are the Dean and Chapter. Without knowing, I suspect that the Abbey buildings vest in them, but it isn't terribly relevant and I think we agree that the Abbey is not a royal chapel.
The link kindly provided by Colin Pykett only refers to services at St Margaret's Westminster being cancelled and a shortfall in the Abbey's income. As Colin observes, music isn't specifically mentioned, but there may be other information elsewhere.
Rowland, you don't need to be convinced about anything. You are absolutely correct.
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8 hours ago, Dafydd y Garreg Wen said:
It is of course a royal *foundation*, as are many churches and institutions, and has very strong royal links, but that doesn’t mean the Crown owns it, as it owns (say) Windsor Castle.
It belongs to the Church of England, but with a peculiar form of jurisdiction (“peculiar” in both senses of the word) that reflects its origins.
The fact that the Queen is the Ordinary doesn’t mean she owns the Abbey, any more than the bishop of a diocese as Ordinary (i.e. the usual form of jurisdiction) owns any of the parish churches of that diocese. Likewise the Ordinaries of other non-royal peculiars. Being Ordinary doesn’t make a church your personal property: it simply means you are at the apex of the structure of governance.
Westminster Abbey is not 'owned' by the Church of England. It is ultimately owned by The Queen in right of the Crown. Just in the same way the Crown Jewels are not owned by the State. They are also owned by the Sovereign in right of the Crown.
Windsor Castle is a bit more complicated. It is held in trust by the Occupied Royal Palaces Estate. Effectively the Sovereign once again owns Windsor Castle, but since it is held in Trust on behalf of the nation, the Sovereign does not have the final say in the financial disposition of the Palace Estates. This principle also applies to all assets which are ultimately owned by the Sovereign in right of the Crown.
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2 hours ago, Dafydd y Garreg Wen said:
The ban remains, tho’ with helpful clarification about practice and maintenance. At least the Welsh bishops are arguing against it now:
“Organs: Maintenance work to organs can now be undertaken. A pipe organ may be played for practice or maintenance purposes when the building is closed to the public. Organs (other than electronic) cannot at this time be played as part of public opening, services, marriages or funerals. We are lobbying for a change in this provision.”
https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/en/clergy-and-members/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance/Let's hope this ridiculous situation is rectified.
I really did need to read the thread title twice as I've never heard such utter rubbish in my entire life.
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1 hour ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
The first organ that I played had a mains electricity isolation switch box, located at a considerable distance in the Rector's vestry. I forget how we accessed it during weekday lunchtimes (nearly 70 years ago!) but no risk of out of hours electrical fires with that arrangement. I believe that my local cathedral organ is similarly protected now. As far as I am aware, this does not have any adverse consequences for registration memories.
Of course, it isn't established what caused this fire. It's a very sad loss.
Looking at the specification, the Grand Organ appeared to have a significant percentage of pipework by Clicquot. A tragic loss indeed.
The specification for the Grand Organ may be viewed here:
https://www.musiqueorguequebec.ca/orgues/france/nantescsp.html
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The latest report on the BBC suggests that the Grand Organ has been destroyed in the fire. The French police are treating the fire as a criminal act.
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On 04/06/2020 at 23:38, S_L said:
It isn't to do with logic - it's to do with the French mind!!!
The swimming pool, on the roof of Notre Dame in Paris, was, believe it or not, a serious suggestion!!
As I have said before, the French idea of renovation/reconstruction is very different from what 'English Heritage' would accept. Evidence Chartres Cathedral - no swimming pool but painted stone and marble totally out of keeping with a medieval cathedral!
I must admit, I have mixed feelings for the painted stone in Chartres Cathedral.
My first visit to the cathedral was in 1980. I was completely underwhelmed when entering by the west door. It was incredibly dark, dank, and foreboding. Yes the stained glass was no doubt impressive but the cloudy day probably didn't help. If this is the desired effect of a medieval cathedral in less than good condition, you can keep it. I'm quite happy to use degrees of imagination to pretend to see what I should be seeing, but the condition of the cathedral back then was less than acceptable.
I haven't viewed the painted stone in person, only in photos. I understand that the quality of some of the work is not as it should be. But at least you can actually see the building. Before, you could hardly see anything at all. You may as well have been in an underground vault with the lights switched off. It was that bad.
A visit some years later confirmed my view. This wasn't helped by listening to an organ recital on the less than impressive Danion-Gonzalez organ. A very underwhelming instrument, I was very happy to get back to Paris, and haven't been back since.
I will though visit again when allowed and view the painted stone for myself.
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On 15/05/2020 at 22:33, John Robinson said:
I completely agree that we should have confidence in our own organ pedigree, but does that mean that we can't still take in some ideas from other national organ styles? I have heard the 1993 York Minster organ, both on recordings and live, and I feel that it still sounded completely 'English', at least to my ears!
As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, I welcome the changes presently being made by Harrisons and am sure that there will be noticeable improvements, especially with regard to power and projection. However, I'd still have liked it to retain some of the voices being lost. The Cornet, for example, would surely not be out of character as cornets have been a feature of English organs for centuries.Apologies for steering the conversation back to the York Minster organ. I do agree with the highlighted comment above by John Robinson. As you say the Cornet is firmly rooted in the English organ tradition, together with, dare I say, the Sesquialtera! These colourful stops owe nothing to influences from European continental organs. I fully understand the ethos of the current rebuilding of the Minster organ, but I am a little perplexed as to why at least the Cornet has been dropped?
Perhaps Robert Sharpe may be patient enough to respond to this. I know in advance that such issues as space to accommodate a V rank stop (even commencing from tenor C) will always be an issue, given the new specification for the organ. But I just feel, once all is complete, there may be some regret for the loss of at least the Cornet, with all the colour and versatility this stop can bring to the organ repertoire.
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1 hour ago, Colin Pykett said:
As SL said, a fascinating video. Thanks to Dave for posting the link. I winced when they took a pair of pliers to the wiring looms emerging from the console and just chopped through them, especially as I've done the same thing myself from time to time. Always seems sacrilegious somehow! It reminded me, though, of something I often ponder on, which is how on earth did the old organ builders prior to the industrial revolution manage to achieve what they did? Nothing other than horse power for transport beyond the church door, meaning that everything possible would have been done on site, either within the building or in huts outside in the church yard. Many of the workforce probably lived there with their families as well until the job was done - commuting would have been unknown. And only human muscle power for working winches - they might have used a man inside a wheel as when constructing the buildings themselves. Many cathedrals still have those in the roof space today, so maybe they were pressed into service again for organ building purposes. No steel scaffolding, just rickety wooden affairs. And the difficulties of working during the short, dark, cold days of a north European winter with only candles for illumination.
Makes you think, and wonder at their achievements.
Must agree with everything you say. I would add that, not being good at heights, I found the precarious work so close to the tribune quite frightening. Standing in the nave and looking up the organ gallery is positioned at a great height, some would say too high for the organ to be at its most effective. But the way they were negotiating the pulley with all the heavy items - ugh!
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4 hours ago, S_L said:
Super little video! I liked the bits where some of the large pedal pipes were being 'roped' over gallery down into the nave and you could see tourists still flocking around the side aisles. And also when the old console went over the side too! You don't realise how high up it all is until you either go into Notre Dame or see a video like this! No hard hats either!!
M. Macron's 'five years' was always optimistic and the current situation will have put a lot of pressure on that. Ten years may be a little pessimistic but I'll bet it is nearer the mark for when the 'monster' does roar again! We shall see!
Ten years is optimistic. The French do not appear to be particularly adept at dealing with emergencies/restorations like this. I know it's not a fair comparison but the way York Minster was restored in its response to the fire shows what can be done. The general impression is that the French are not interested and the President of France is incompetent.
It would also be asking too much for the Positif de Dos be restored as part of the project. The case for this has recently been restored to an excellent condition and was stored in the upper galleries. Hopefully the fire hasn't damaged this. Realising Pierre Cochereau's dream of the restored Positif de Dos with his ambitious proposal of an eighteen stop division is probably fanciful. But from a visual perspective at least the restoration would be welcome. Who knows, there may be some musical value to it as well.
All highly unlikely given current circumstances and the disinterest of the French people.
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5 hours ago, DaveHarries said:
I thought this might be of interest.
The Facebook page of the organbuilding workshop of Atelier Bertrand Cattiaux has this video showing some of the work to dismantle the organ of Notre Dame de Paris for the work of 1990-1992. I am guessing it won't be long before they start dismantling it once again for restoration work following last year's near disaster: hopefully within a few years the beast will roar again. Meantime the video from Cattiaux is at https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2614655468778918
Dave
Just goes to show how dirty things can be when dismantling an organ!
I doubt though whether 'the beast will roar again' in a few years. Progress on restoring the cathedral is painfully slow, and the current pandemic will not help.
I would be pleasantly surprised if everything is back to full operation even in ten years time.
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Great post providing the Bach recording from the RAH, many thanks for that!
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3 minutes ago, pcnd5584 said:
Martin - thank you for your kind words. I have the rest of the evening off, and suddenly remembered the Mander board, and my friends here. I am hoping to find the topic on the York Minster organ, and to read Robert Sharpe's rationale - so I shall now have a look at the other parts of this forum.
I would certainly be interested in your views with regard to the revised specification of the York Minster organ.
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7 minutes ago, pcnd5584 said:
It has recently been decreed by the French Senate that Nôtre-Dame de Paris will be restored to the last known state prior to the conflagration. Personally, if this is carried out, I would regard it as something of a relief.
This was covered recently in the national press, notably the Daily Telegraph.
Despite the decree from the French Senate, the idea has been proposed to construct the roof and spire in the same form as before, but made of glass. This would no doubt be striking, but I'm not sure if this would be universally popular, or indeed fall within the remit of the legislation passed by the Senate?
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21 minutes ago, Paul Isom said:
This has just popped up on social media - the first photo of the organ after the fire. It’s really quite remarkable.
That is amazing!
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1 hour ago, S_L said:
Despite the fact that my late wife worked with Peter Gibson at York I suspect it will be the team from Chartres who will be the ones called in to look at the stained glass at Notre Dame!!
The team at York did a fantastic job on the stained glass. As mentioned by MM before, it really is remarkable the way the glass can be restored back to its former glory. This must take ingenuity and skill, not to mention patience, in order to do this!
I gather that the rose windows in the North and South transepts have survived the fire? If so this is incredible news, although given the collapse of the central space of the cathedral I am surprised that the fire has not affected the lead and glass?
Given that the quire furnishings are also largely unaffected, let's hope the Orgue de Choeur has survived as well.
Downside Abbey
in General discussion
Posted
Yes there is a youtube video showing the work being done to the Compton illuminating press buttons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q9vpEW0vsE
The Hull Minster organ of course has the same Compton illuminations. I'm sure visiting organists must find these consoles both novel and perhaps a bit of fun?