David Murray
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Posts posted by David Murray
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The subject of notes inégales has been raised in another thread. I do not want to derail that discussion, which is about a specific piece of music, but, as I have been pondering the problem for years without feeling that I have ever really got to the bottom of it, I would like to ask about the practice more generally.
I have a working knowledge of the subject, but I have never studied it at a scholarly level and the little I have read suggests that it is all a lot more complicated than most organists think, especially with regard to when it was and wasn't applied (conjunct v. disjunct notes, this or that style of piece, changing practices over time, etc.) However, the most important thing of all is to grasp properly the basic concept of the practice, so I would be really grateful for any historical information to correct, confirm or expand my understanding. Which is this:
Notes inégales were the way French musicians in baroque times ensured graceful playing – le bon goût. I am not aware of any evidence that this style of playing was copied outside France, though I am aware that this is a contentious area of debate (Charles II and his embracing of French fashions gives pause for thought). Recently a very erudite friend of mine tried to justify the use of notes inégales in Bach by citing a keyboard piece in which triplets appear simultaneously with dotted notes, his argument being that the two rhythms were played identically. I don't doubt they were, but to my mind this has nothing to do with notes inégales; rather it is a matter of what I would call assimilation. I suppose Bach's dichotomous notation might just possibly have something to do with trying to convey a particular style of performance, but in any event it is definitely a notational thing and thus the exact opposite of notes inégales which was all about how to perform a given style of notation (equal notes) elegantly.
I sometimes get the impression that this matter of elegance is exactly where notes inégales are most misunderstood. So often performers (at least amateur ones) seem to use it as an excuse to jazz up a piece into a bouncy, jolly jig; they regard it as a carte blanche to change the fundamental nature of the music. However, I am not aware of any evidence that the players of the day thought of themselves as changing anything at all. The notes were notated in equal values and equal notes they remained.* Notes inégales were merely a way of communicating these equal notes to the listener gracefully and elegantly. I suspect this remained true, irrespective of whether the degree of inequality employed was marked or barely perceptible.
Am I thinking along the right lines in equating le bon goût with grace and elegance, or am I way off beam?
* Except of course in the case of those already unequal dotted figures in compound time, which could be over-dotted, but I assume the same taste applied.
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Well as far as 17th century is concerned, a glockenspiel was a fairly common feature of large organs. It would be used in celebratory music eg a Pedal Glock could be used to great effect in Bach's In dir ist Freude [Orgelbuchlein]....
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Passau is biggest by far. Article on the Jann organ at Waldsassen plus spec in Orgelfuehrer Deutschland Bd 1 published Baerenreiter.
Also Jann website www.jahnorgelbau.de - it's their opus 153
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Hi,
I believe I am right in thinking that the organ in Passau Cathedral, Bavaria is the largest cathedral organ in Germany. But I believe that the organ at Passau would be not quite the largest organ in Germany overall as it is only 5 manuals and, on that grounding alone, would play second fiddle to this instrument.
The organ is that of Waldsassen Basilica, Germany and has 6 manuals. A great clip is on YouTube of Maxime Patel playing the Te Deum by Jeanne Demssieux:
Fairly old looking case (at a guess) but a fairly new looking console with marble surrounds. I am wondering wether anyone knows anything of the history of this insturment. Any information (or links to where I can find some) would be gladly received.
Probably the largest church organ in Germany? Or am I wrong on that?
Dave
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Sorry - this slipped through my net somehow.
Thanks for the comments. Is all Weitz's stuff virtuosic, or are there any easily approachable pieces? (I'm just too lazy to spend time learning anything very difficult these days.)
The Grand Choeur, Sicilienne, Fanfare and Gothic March are all possible - Grand Choeur probably the most effective.
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Don't have his contact details I'm afraid, Quentin. I just hope that one of our most exciting young executants and improvisers of recent years is not to be lost to directing a choir.
Apparently he's going back into full-time study at the RNCM ....and it's not organ he's studying ...
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Brilliant, Pierre ! Duly ordered ! I've got no excuse - I'll have to learn the damn thing now !
Thanks
Barpfeife
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This famous piece, published by HW Gray Publications, has been out of print for years and there seem to be no plans for a reprint. i can't find a copy anywhedre - nothing in RCO Library and it doesn't feature in any current second-hand music lists that I'm aware of...
Does anyone of the whereabouts of a copy or would any Discussion Board member be willing to sell/lend me a copy for appropriate recompense?
Thanks
Barpfeife
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I understand from a friend in the Llandaff Girls Choir that the organ has broken down completely (in her words it's "broken"!) - anyone know more please?
The Cathedral was struck by lightning a few weeks ago - all the electrics melted and damage to the control systems of the organ is reckoned to be fairly irretrievable. As a temp measure the Cathedral are hiring a big Rodgers [3 man]. It arrives today. Hopefully this will add impetus to the commissioning of a new instrument....
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I know I'm hopelessly old-fashioned, perhaps thats why I can't see the place for a "Principal Celestes" on a great organ and regard this as step in the direction of american taste and surely not typical of English, German or French style.
...........no but it is of early Italian. "Principal celestes" is surly just another name for a Piffaro which came as fairly standard on the main division of late renaissaince and early baroque Italian instruments ....
If it is voiced correctly with the 8'principal it would be ideal for pieces like Frescobaldi Toccata chromatica [Fiori musicali].
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Does anyone know the above work by Jean-Jacques Grunenwald?
If so, can they tell me what it's from? I play it from a (sh...!) photocopy which someone passed to me several years ago. It would be nice to purchase a legitimate copy or at the very least to know what album or longer work it appears in. I am fairly sure that it isn't a stand-alone work, hence the problem.
Anyone who doesn't know it - think of Alain or Langlais and then remove the astringent edge, it's soft but very 'lush'. I recommend it highly. Some of Avenir de Monfred's work is something similar but also pretty well off the beaten track.
It's from Grunenwald's Second Suite, Paul....published Leduc but long out of print.
The Second Suite also contains a good Toccata, and the First Suite [which is in print] is well worth exploring as well.
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Does anyone know when the pedal divide facility first appeared, where and was it solely for improvisaton?
AJJ
I'm sure AJJ is right in surmising that the pedal divide facility was introduced as an inprovisation aid, but there are some piece which really benefit from using it.
For example Dupre Angelus [published 1936] ; the whole pf the opening section ofthis piece is double-pedal with the right foot continuously repeating a high E [representing a tolling bell] whilst the left foot plays an independent bass-line in the bottom octave of the pedalboard. It seems to cry out for pedal divide - as then you can register the tolling high E appropriately and save it "clogging" up the texture by having to use the same 16+8 bourdons as the true bass requires.
bpf
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I think the organ was also used for Haitink's VW Sinfonia Antartica. I know Andrew Davis and the BBC Symphony Orchestra made most of their many recordings of Elgar and VW there and it was also a favourite for the EMI Classics for Pleasure team. One of their last recordings made there was I think Sir Charles Mackerras and the London Philharmonic in Dvorak's 7th and 9th symphonies. I always used to see the LPO or BBCSO lorry parked outside the church, but not now.
Just on a point of info - the organ used for Haitink/LPO RVW Antartica wasn't St Augustine Kilburn but Methodist Central Hall Westminster {in another life I worked for EMI]. But Yes St Augs was a favourite EMI recording venue for many recordings up until the last eight years or so. Its used less now because of unpredictable outside noise partic from the surrounding flats.
Notes Inégales
in The Organ
Posted
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Am I thinking along the right lines in equating le bon goût with grace and elegance, or am I way off beam?[/font]
.....[hopefully, with my reply this time !!]........I think your basic premise about le bon gout is absolutely correct Vox, but I would also add "appropriateness" ie knowing when to use inegales and the degree of inequailty that should be used to reinforce the mood/Affekt of the piece.
Best summary of the historical info on this and how to apply I've found is in Laukvik Historical Performance Practice on the organ [Carus] - this book is a mine of information and an excellent primer for already technically-competent players