innate
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Posts posted by innate
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Thank you for the responses. pwhodges: I feel for your son’s early experience at Winchester, but how fortunate to have learnt on the Rieger. I was there when it was being installed and voiced.
Tony; the nearest there is to a regular choir has no official place to sing but in the Gallery near the West End is very good from an acoustic point of view. So I imagine that would continue.
The biggest problem I foresee with an integrated console would be communication with clergy immediately before or during services. Maybe there’s a technological solution to this already in use in some churches.
What about using the organ in concerts? The delay will be apparent to the conductor, orchestra and choir at the east end wherever the organist is, but if the console is near the performers at least s/he can make the adjustment. At a West End console the delay would be effectively doubled unless some kind of headphone system is provided. What happens at St John’s, Smith Square (a similar building in scale)?
My wife played in the orchestra for a recording of the Poulenc Concerto (I think) in Tonbridge School shortly after the Marcussen had been installed with Dame Gillian Weir—there were significant problems synchronising the organ and orchestra.
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This is a rather wide-ranging question which might have benefitted from splitting into a few separate topics but let’s see how it goes.
Given the choice, in a working largish parish church with an active liturgical and concert life and the pipes of a new organ contained in a historic case high up at the West end, between electric action and a detached console at the altar (concert platform) end at ground level and an attached console with mechanical action in or next to the case, what would your preference be and why?
If your answer is “both” how likely is it that one console will, in practice, be used almost exclusively and the other lie gathering dust.
Are there any effective reversed consoles with mechanical action on organs with a chair division?
Are there limits of size (number of stops, manuals) that make a terraced console too large to see over? I seem to remember the organ in the West gallery at St Aloysius, Oxford being rather good from a visibility point of view.
Does having a “side” console make for serious problems with mechanical action?
In the old days organs were nearly always in the West Gallery (or on the crossing in a Cathedral) and the organist often obscured by the chair case. Liturgy was, I suppose, much more predictable then. In churches where organists are expected to respond to a glance or a subtle hand signal from the clergy or the Master of Ceremonies do modern closed-circuit video systems work as well as being physically close to the action?
My preference is for mechanical action.
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It’s hardly a difficult transposition—play it in Bb and at least you’ll have to concentrate a little!
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Has anyone played Bach on a clavichord? I went to a clavichord recital once in Oxford and it took about 10 minutes of playing for my ears to adjust to the extremely low dynamic level. But the sound of a clavichord isn’t a million miles away from an early piano, just quieter! And they were the common practice instrument for keyboard players, I think. Some large triple-strung clavichords were made in Bach’s lifetime that perhaps projected better than the small ones. Just wondering where people draw the line? Bach on an early fortepiano might be interesting. I don’t agree with mkc1’s comment about the necessity of sustained tone; Bach wrote and arranged a lot of contrapuntal music for lute or Lautenwerk.
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I can’t remember the official name, maybe “cubus”, but a continental European builder used to advertise small organs with a single “pipe” that produced many chromatic notes for a 16' pedal stop. Compton had something similar for the 32' octave. I think they work on the principal of an ocarina.
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9 hours ago, pcnd5584 said:
There are indeed. However, I suspect that most of these work better than many English examples, because of the design and voicing of the individual ranks. And generally because these instruments are often situated in buildings with a more favourable acoustic ambience.
The building I’m thinking of has such a good acoustic ambience the >30 year old A***n D*g*t*l toaster doesn’t sound bad.
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I’ve not heard this one but it has received very good reports:
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2 hours ago, pwhodges said:
I'm struck by how similar (on paper) this is to the Willis/H&H organ of Christ Church Cathedral (pre-Rieger...), which was a fine accompaniment instrument. Most obvious differences are that Oxford had tierce mixtures, and less 16-ft reed tone on manuals (Gt had 8, 4 reeds, and Sw had Double Oboe). Oxford also had a couple of harmonic flutes, a 16 ft on the Choir, a heavy OD...
It’s not that dissimilar to the secular instrument up the road: https://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N08021
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13 hours ago, pcnd5584 said:
(Spreadsheet copied as .rtf, and posted above.)
Having spent twenty-six years accompanying the Minster Choir (in Wimborne), with similar G.O. and Swell flues, I would state that these are insufficient for either variety or in order to avoid aural boredom. If the proposed instrument is not intended to accompany a good choir, with a fairly wide repertoire, then it is probably okay. However, again from experience, a single Chimney Flute won't be enough adequately to support that much upper-work.
I like your 4-man spec. Thanks for posting that. On paper it’s less “sparkly” and more “gravitas” than mine 🙂
Funnily enough the choir accompaniment isn’t the main thing, although there might be occasional choral evensongs. I respect your experience but aren’t there many examples from the 17th and 18th century of secondary divisions with no 8' principal base?
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3 minutes ago, pcnd5584 said:
Spreadsheet - odd; I'm not sure why. It opens fine for me - but then, the original is saved on my computer, so it might just be reverting to that.
Slender foundations - I was thinking particularly of the Choir Organ, which has a fair amount of upper-work, but only a single 8ft. Chimney Flute with which to support it. This was (and is) a serious failing of the Minster organ. I should want at least two other 8ft. ranks on the Choir Organ.
In addition, on the Bombarde Organ, it would be helpful to specify the type of flutes available. Are they open, stopped, chimney, harmonic....? The Cornet is complete, so it doesn't require an 8ft. stopped Flute to be drawn at the same time.Spreadsheet unavailable [see attached graphic]
There could, hypothetically, be an existing chair case for the Choir which would limit the number of foundation flues. Maybe, as in some “box organs” there might be room for an open 8' from Middle C, but I suspect that won’t satisfy you 🙂 I quite like having my choices limited in some regards and I hadn’t really thought of this department as being a traditional English choral tradition accompanimental division at all; the Swell and Great are designed to be sufficient in that regard.
The Bombarde Flutes I imagined to be open, quite strongly voiced, particularly in the treble, definitely not Stopped or Chimney (those are specified elsewhere) but capable of being used as pedal flutes when required in eg trio sonatas. I like to leave some room for the builder to choose. I wouldn’t initially have thought of harmonic flutes for either but there’s a lovely one at St Michael and All Angel’s, Bedford Park (referred to above) which seems very at home in an otherwise quite classical stop list.
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8 hours ago, pcnd5584 said:
I think that the Pedal and Swell organs are too small in proportion. In addition, the foundation work is somewhat slender. My preference is for at least one chorus reed on the G.O. The problem with a separate Bombarde Organ is, while it may increase flexibility on the one hand, on the other it necessitates adding a coupler every time that the reeds are required on the G.O. In French symphonic music, this would quickly become wearisome.
I note that this scheme is intended for a large parish church; I think that it may be a little small for that - depending on what it will be expected to do. If the musical duties involve choral accompaniment of roughly 'cathedral-type' repertoire, I should wish for a greater spread of 8ft. tone. And a somewhat larger Swell Organ, with a chorus mixture and a conventional reed chorus.
I couldn’t open your spreadsheet spec.
One particular I could have mentioned is that this might be for a relatively small historic case, hence the slightly small pedal and swell divisions.
I think the idea is that the Bombarde reeds are available via the coupler rather like an “Appel” (if that’s the right word); possibly easier to add and subtract than if they were on the Great, especially if there is a reversible pedal and/or thumb piston.
With 9 8' flues on the manuals it beats some “classical” Cathedral organs. Christ Church, Oxford has only 7!
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2 hours ago, fsharpminor said:
Don't know about the Church of England not approving of Latin in 1908, but at the 1953 coronation there was none; even Vaughan Williams Mass in G minor was sung in an English version.
Vivat Regina, Vivat Regina Elizabetha! sounds like Latin to me.
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I would choose harpsichord, clavichord or low-pressure pipe organ for Bach keyboard music and a circulating temperament for the “48”. The organ pieces would probably have been played on organs with less “modern” temperaments; Bach didn’t get his way with most organ builders, I think.
But I don’t mind people playing Bach or Scarlatti or Byrd on the piano if that works for them. The music is glorious whatever.
I really couldn’t care about the pitch standard though. Bach existed at a time of differing pitch standards and had to cope with up to three at the same time for some of his Cantatas, I think. The pitch of church organs would have changed by as much as a semitone from winter to summer.
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12 minutes ago, S_L said:
I'm sorry - perhaps I am being a little dense - but I don't understand that comment!
I thought the organ at Gonville & Caius was by Klais - put there in the early 1980's! Is there a move to replace it?
Ruffatti made tonal changes to the Keble Chapel organ quite recently.
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Very interesting! Not wishing to divert the discussion before it’s started but is there any common ground between the Orgelbewegung and the pioneers of other “early instruments” and attempts to rediscover lost performance styles, including Arnold Dolmetsch and Francis Galpin? And in turn do those pioneers connect with the pre-Raphaelites and the Arts And Crafts movement?
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25 minutes ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
In a completely different league, of course, didn’t Marcel Dupré play the complete works of Bach from memory?
Paul Jacobs is in the same league as Dupré, or a higher one. He’s played the complete Bach organ works from memory and the complete Messiaen organ works from memory (in one day, I think—I caught Messe de la Pentecôte).
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You need your own, designed to fit safely under the VdG draw stop, “Keep Cup”, that you take to Tim Horton’s for them to fill with their delicious brew. If Hortons are anything like any UK coffee outlet chain you’ll get a 30-50¢ discount on each cup if you bring your own cup to save the planet!
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This was my list of omissions from when I made the spec:
Omissions
Tuba/Chamade solo reed
Voix Humaine
2' flute
1⅓'
1'
Choir: 8' Dulciana or Open Diapason, Larigot
Great: 8' Open Flute, Twelfth, Cymbale
Swell: 16' flue, 4' flute, “standard” Mixture, chorus reed
Pedal: 32' Reed, 32' flue, 3rd 16' flue, Quint 10⅔', 8' flute, 4' flue, 8' or 4' reed
Octave couplers (mechanical)
eg Sw/Gt Suboctave; Sw/Gt Superoctave; Sw/Ped Superoctave; Ch/Ped Superoctave
Enclosed Choir
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There’s a Swell sub-octave to Great at the Swiss Church, Endell Street, which really beefs up the potential. Some have said that the Gt. 8' flute at St Michael’s Highgate, an organ I know quite well, although identified on the stop knob as Stopped, is in fact an open flute at least in the upper register.
Thanks for the inside info.
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37 minutes ago, AJJ said:
Great - Make 4’ Flute ‘harmonic’, add 12th 2 2/3.
I hadn’t thought that Harmonic Flutes would necessarily fit the “sound” of this slightly more “classical” (for want of a better word) instrument. But certainly worth considering.
Swell - Change 2’ to Flageolet, add 15.19.22 Mixture, add Cornopean 8, add Vox Humana 8’ add Clarion 4.
Hm. Lot of extra stops there. I was aiming for a slightly leaner feel. 2' flute would be useful. Probably because of the repertoire I generally play I never find myself saying “I wish this organ had a Vox Humana.”!
Choir - Add Dulciana 8’, add Larigot 1 1/3 and maybe even enclose.
I used to play an organ that had a Choir Dulciana amongst an otherwise “Baroque” stoplist. I hardly ever used it. Sometimes useful in Reger or Howells. Larigot would be nice but, again, an extra stop.
Pedal - Add Violone 16’, add Flute 8’, take 4’ from Mixture and make independent 15th, add Contra Bassoon 32’.
Making the 4' independent, or a half-draw, might work. The idea was that you could couple from any manual to the pedals if you needed 8' or 4' flutes. Two open 16's are quite extravagant these days, and there might not be space … Same reasoning for nit having a 32' reed.
Couplers - Add Bombarde to Swell
Yes. I didn’t want to overload the spec with couplers, although I see that some large all-mechanical instruments have many more couplers than used to be considered possible 40 or 50 years ago. This coupler might obviate the need for chorus reeds on the Swell. If more couplers were possible I’d be tempted by a Swell or Choir 8ve to Pedal.
i don’t usually do these things......
So I see …
A
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It would have to be an unconscious reference to GDH! I do have a copy of a book about the American Classic Organ (or whatever it’s called) but reading it made very little impression on my thinking. The separating of the big reads from the Great is to allow Trumpet voluntaries and other music that needs the reeds to be separate. I didn’t say, but I would want this instrument to have mechanical key action and this design is a sort of mechanical Gt Reeds duplexed on Choir!
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You’re not wrong, Jonathan! I love the enclosed Resonance division at St Michael’s; I’m in two minds about enclosing the Bombarde here. Obviously with the lack of a large chorus reed at 8' in the Swell it would be useful in the late romantic repertoire to have the Bombarde reeds under expression but there’s something exhilarating about unenclosed and untameable (?) fiery reeds. Maybe the flues in the Bombarde division could be enclosed and the reeds not; a little like at St John’s, Oxford.
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I know many frown on this sort of thing but the board is hardly overwhelmed with posts at the moment so here goes:
An Organ for a Large Parish Church
GREAT (II)
Bourdon 16'
Open Diapason 8'
Stopped Diapason 8'
Gamba 8'
Principal 4'
Flute 4'
Fifteenth 2'
Mixture IV 1⅓' (19, 22, 26, 29)
Swell to Great
Choir to Great
Bombarde to Great
Cymbelstern
SWELL (III—enclosed)
Open Diapason 8'
Stopped Diapason 8'
Salicional 8'
Voix Celestes 8' (from AA)
Gemshorn 4'
Fifteenth 2'
Sesquialtera II 2⅔' (12, 17)
Bassoon 16'
Oboe 8'
Tremulant
CHOIR (I)
Chimney Flute 8'
Principal 4'
Flute 4'
Nazard 2⅔'
Gemshorn 2'
Tierce 1⅗'
Sharp Mixture IV 1' (22, 26, 29, 33)
Cremona 8'
Tremulant
Swell to Choir
BOMBARDE (IV)
Flute 8'
Flute 4'
Cornet V 8' (from Ten F/mid C?)
Tremulant
Bombarde 16'
Trumpet 8'
Clarion 4'
PEDAL
Open Diapason 16'
Subbass 16'
Principal 8'
Mixture IV 4' (15, 17, 19, 22)
Trombone 16'
Swell to Pedal
Great to Pedal
Bombarde to Pedal
Choir to Pedal
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I’d be surprised if there were any limit set by national legislation. The rules for children performing under Local Authority licence in eg theatres or film or television are very strict but I’m not aware that any such restrictions apply to worship.
Cranleigh School
in The Organ
Posted
I’ve known that frets on lutes and viols could be positioned so as to approximate to some non-equal temperaments for about 40 years!
http://luteshop.co.uk/articles/tuning-temperament/