Philip

I would endorse the comments above. The only other thing I would mention is that, because NEH was published in the mid 1980s, it is missing a number of items which have now become popular (Coe Fen, Guiting Power, Lord for the Years, Corvedale, for example). You can find them in the supplement to NEH (New English Praise) but that is of course an extra book; Common Praise has them all in the main book (because it is a much more recent publication), which I think puts it ahead of NEH. I wish we were using Common Praise.

I agree with this - Common Praise has taken a sensible attitude to editing of words, making alterations where practical but if not leaving them alone. I don't disagree with editing per se, but think that it needs to be done with this bit of common sense. Unfortunately, we are stuck with HON - One Church, One Faith, One Lord, which edits everything with no regard for common sense - and the vicar wants to keep the inclusive language. To give one example, last Trinity Sunday we had the annual outing for 'Holy, holy, holy' - in the second verse the familiar line is 'though the eye of sinful man thy glory may not see'. In HON this becomes 'though the sinful mortal eye...' - the result was that while the rest of the hymn was sung well this line was an utter mess as some people sang the proper words and some people followed the edited words. I like to encourage a good quality worship experience and this certainly did not contribute to it. HON is full of all sorts of other clumsy editing. Meanwhile, some hymns have been virtually rewritten (they call it adapted, usually by Michael Forster, who is not exactly a fine poet) - 'All hail the power of Jesus' name' is one example of dumbing down, while 'For all the saints' has been rewritten to remove any kind of fighting or battle references! At least we print the words out and so I can change the words back to the proper versions in cases like this. I like 'Shine Jesus Shine' - it is perfectly singable and one of Kendrick's better offerings. The RSCM publication 'Sing with all my soul' includes an interesting arrangement by Bill Llewelyn (John Keys calls it 'camp') including a choir coda finishing on top B flats! It is one of the few modern songs that can be played on the organ and still called a success IMO. I would love us to invest in Common Praise - I think it is the hymnbook all traditional churches ought to be using nowadays, along with the point about word editing made above.

I think I sped through this over breakfast on Christmas morning before heading off to my own service, but I deleted it straight off the Sky+. I didn't particularly enjoy the service as a whole, but my abiding memory will be of the last verse of 'O come, all ye faithful' and the fact that the singing got completely disjointed, so in that sense the setting (with descanting trumpet) failed. On the other hand, this evening I've been through the broadcast from Lichfield on Christmas morning which has stayed (for the moment, at least). Some of it sounds a bit exciting with the organ tuned sharp (I can't sing Hark the herald in G, let alone higher!), but the music and liturgy flowed well. It's very easy to knock the F in Darke mass but it is a wonderful example of its form (a mass conceived for the liturgy, as opposed to the more extravagant settings which fill the music lists of Cathedrals nowadays). I understand that descants are always a source for much debate, but for 'O come, all ye faithful' I really don't think you can beat the Willcocks setting - the descant for verse 6 is well-conceived and the last verse setting is thrilling.

As said above, I do rather like 'O Holy Night' (sorry). We did it last night at Midnight Mass, and some people applauded (hmm). And I spent two hours in the car earlier today listening to Classic FM (not the countdown, the programme just before) - thats what comes from a broken CD player and two radio presenters who were once on Pop Idol but now broadcast on a local radio station who insist on talking and not playing any music. It was requests, which meant I heard all sorts - but they did choose the Darke version of 'In the bleak midwinter' over the Holst which wins brownie points any day of the week. http://www.classicfm.co.uk/christmas/carols/nations-favourite-carol/ is the link to this year's list. Incidentally, John Rutter is now not just composer in residence to Christmas but also the BBC's musical adviser for it. There was a programme on BBC2 this afternoon - John Rutter's Musical Nativity, which didn't just contain Rutter items but they were in the majority.

I suppose we could compare this to the Kings service and see how it fits the bill...the order is online now on the BBC website. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018fv69 I had thought for the past couple of years that the order was getting a bit repetitive, but this year's looks a little better (that Judith Weir seems to be one of SC's 'pet' pieces though which gets a lot of outings). I am a sucker for 20th century stuff, and the Chilcott and Tavener are both favourites (the Tavener is obviously well-known, the Chilcott deserves to be better known in spite of featuring at Kings). In terms of the top 30, I'd think of it in terms of congregational items and choir items. For the former, there's plenty I don't dislike, but a few I'd rather not have - namely Away in a manger (done to death) Silent night (as above) We three kings (boring) Angels from the realms (even more boring) In the bleak (Holst - mostly because I find it inferior to the Darke) Otherwise, I think a carol service is nothing without 'O come, all ye faithful' and the splendid Willcocks arrangements (we normally have a thread about descants here every year!) and 'Hark the herald', although thats a strain to sing, especially if you play it in G as in CFC - I always take it down to F which is still quite taxing. We are having (as we have done for the past few years) a joint Carol service with the Methodist Church across the road and from their new hymnbook 'Singing the Faith' we're using a different descant to 'Hark the herald' by Paul Leddington-Wright. Some of it is quite good, but there are a couple of rather trite phrases in there - nice for a change though. I'd put 'Of the Father's love begotten' in as an under-used favourite (sadly it doesn't feature in the top 30 listed) - although I don't like the translation in CFC. As for choir items, I like so much of the standard repertoire but as I said love much of the latter 20th century stuff, e.g. Lauridsen 'O magnum mysterium' (which says just about everything about the mystery of Christmas for me), the Chilcott and Tavener above, the Leighton 'Coventry Carol' (has to be done well though); 'No small wonder' by Paul Edwards is simple but profound. I notice a couple of Rutter items feature in the top 30 - if you scratch past his cheesy bouncy stuff, some of it is really quite lovely (e.g. Dormi Jesu, What Sweeter Music, even the Nativity Carol although that is a little trite). Darke 'In the bleak' is classic, although is done a little too much to be an all-time favourite. The Howells carols are lovely. I personally love 'O holy night' (in the John West arrangement) but can understand that some find it a little too cheesy - but I get a tingle factor hearing it live - we're doing it at Midnight Mass which should go down a treat. What about Christmas organ music? For anyone who's still reading/interested, mine this year are Carol Service as mentioned above - BWV 729 during offering, Andrew Gant's Toccata on Mendelssohn to finish Crib Service - not sure yet, probably Sleigh Ride unless I come up with something else Midnight Mass - Mushel Toccata (with Zimbelstern!) Christmas Day - Clifton Hughes Variations on 'Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer' And probably BWV 729 again on January 1st unless I think of something else suitable before the notice sheet goes to print next Thursday In other words, nothing heavy or overly taxing! I do love this time of year, enjoying the huge repertoire that exists and hearing it at various carol services - I've already been to two this year!

Not just instrument and player, but for me the building as well. Around 12 months ago, I was searching for a Cathedral Evensong to visit on a Saturday night on the way back from somewhere or other and picked Lincoln. Despite having been there before, I had forgotten just how magnificent a building it is. I greatly enjoyed the music (it was also at this service that I fell in love - so to speak - with the Howells' 'Gloucester Service', which I now think is certainly his greatest setting and possibly the best ever written - depending upon my mood!), and ended up in the pub with Colin Walsh afterwards! Since then I have returned reasonably regularly for Evensong (being just an hour's train ride from Nottingham), mostly on Saturdays. I guess that the organ doesn't travel well into the Nave, as is the case at many of our larger Cathedrals, but in the Quire the effect is superb and there surely isn't anyone who knows the instrument better than Colin Walsh. The choir are excellent as well (both boys and girls), and altogether I find worshipping at Lincoln to be a wonderful experience.

Of course David - you are right and a typo on my part. Psalm 65, of course. Stainer probably comes into the category too - I do like 'I saw the Lord'.

I'm sure all of us must have pieces of music that we quite enjoy, but would be rather ashamed to admit it. Yesterday for our Harvest Festival, our choir sang Maunder's 'Sing to the Lord of harvest' as the anthem in the morning (he of 'Olivet to Calvary' fame). Yes, its obscenely Victorian in style, with a mushy 6/8 section (added the tremulants) and a rather amusing take on 'By him the crowds drop fatness' (which saw the 32' Bourdon used). Alright, its musical twaddle, but the congregation loved it (loads of positive comments) and I think the choir quite enjoyed it too for a 'let your hair down' moment. You have to get into the spirit of it and make the most of it and thats what we did. I'm not sure a Cathedral congregation would have been quite as appreciative, mind... Another which springs to mind in terms of choral music is Bryan Kelly's Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis in C. Yes, they lack musical integrity, but I do quite enjoy them on occasion in the right setting (obviously they wouldn't sit well alongside Byrd or Tallis though!). What are your 'guilty pleasures' then? And how many posts before someone confesses that they actually like that Sortie in E flat?!

Some interesting thoughts here. Personally, I've never been sold on Britten. I find Rejoice in the Lamb rather tedious, and don't think all that much of the aforementioned Jubilate either. The one piece I am sold on is the Hymn to the Virgin, but then thats early Britten and he hadn't really developed his own style so much at that stage. On non-organist composers, Mathias is worthy of mention. Alright, his organ music isn't on the same scale as many others but he's written some quite effective pieces in his time (the Processional and Recessional are both decent enough). Even Rutter has written a couple of organ pieces - Toccata in Seven and the Easter duet piece. Of course, his choral accompaniments are designed for piano rather than organ for the most part.

I realise this - and if it is available anywhere I'm (still) quite willing to purchase a copy!

I would not argue against getting NEH. A couple of years ago they put together a supplement of about 100 hymns/tunes called 'New English Praise' (see http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-English-Praise.../dp/1853117242), which contains some more modern offerings (e.g. Coe Fen, Guiting Power, Corvedale, East Acklam) but is still mostly traditional (I think 'Be still' found its way in there). To have that as a companion might be the solution - even if you only get choir copies for the music and print the words for the congregation when you use an item from there. They even do a spiral bound copy which sits wonderfully well on the music stand.

Since no-one seems able to locate a publication of the descant linked in the OP, I have spent a little time transcribing it as Nigel suggested. In a day or so I should have a pdf of it ready, and if you are interested then please PM me with your e-mail address and I will happily send it to you. For a start, you can check whether you agree with my transcribing! It will contain the descant line only, because as Nigel says (apart from a couple of minor alterations in the last line) the harmonies beneath are the 'normal' ones, i.e. those we use for verse 2 in Goss's setting. We are due to have the hymn as our opener next week so I'm going to try it out with our Sopranos on Friday night.

Stephen is right - and in the current times ordering two sets of books to ensure a proper coverage (e.g. Common Praise and Sing Praise, which was mentioned above) would prove too expensive at a time when our church is struggling to find the money to even handle the basic upkeep of the building. We currently have our hymns printed out on sheets and only the choir have music copies of HON (which means I can choose alternative versions from time to time), and buying music and words editions of a whole new raft of books would be very costly. I know they offer grants for bulk purchasing, but even still these are substantial sums of money we are talking about. Perhaps the RSCM could start a grant scheme for 'church which use HON but really wish they didn't'! I would like the congregation to have hymn books, ideally Common Praise, but we've been there and it isn't going to happen. Let's hope I win the EuroMillions on Friday night, so I can offer a donation with strict instructions...

I actually have the Andrew Fletcher volumes but have thus far not investigated the descant section - perhaps I should now.

Many thanks - I had seen Tysoe's name crop up and did wonder but I was sure someone on here would know. Does anyone know if its published anywhere? Are there any other 'good' descants which are worthy of note? I quite like Christopher Gower's to 'Lasst uns erfreuen' - it seems to be a favourite down at Southwell Minster where I've heard it a couple of times. I guess writing a really good descant is quite difficult in terms of creating something which is interesting but not too off-putting for the congregation. We've had this discussion about Christmas ones before I know, but perhaps we can consider the rest of the year...

Is anyone able to identify the composer and source of the descant sung in this video, please? I know descants are very much a take or leave thing but I rather like this one and would be interested to find a copy. I'm sure given the experience of the members of this board someone will know it. Many thanks in advance.

One of the basses in our choir was advocating this book and I've looked at it. I wasn't at all impressed I'm afraid - I didn't like the layout and printing, and far too many of the items were very obscure.

Hymns Old & New - One Church, One Faith, One Lord. I don't like it at all - poorly bound, thin paper, words edited beyond belief, tunes set down, many of the arrangements of modern songs poor. It replaced Celebration Hymnal, which wasn't much better. We still use AMR for Evensong, but sadly being 60 years old there's now a considerable amount of stuff which isn't in there which probably ought to be. Assuming your church favours traditional music, the two you mention (NEH and CP) are the best two choices out there from what I can fathom, and I guess nearly all our Cathedrals now use one or the other (mostly the former). NEH is well put together, with an extensive range of hymns for saints days, office hymns etc. CP is a little more up-to-date, so has Coe Fen, Corvedale, Guiting Power etc included as well as some 'worship songs' (e.g. Be still, Shine Jesus Shine). Both retain good musical integrity and haven't done too much meddling with the words (I don't mind them being edited, as long as it is done sensibly). If your church likes a fair amount of modern songs thrown in amongst the traditional hymns, neither of these will really satisfy all your demands. HON (in its various editions) is unfortunately the only hymnal I know of which has the wide coverage to do this - but then you have all the caveats I gave above. Otherwise, you'd have to work with two hymn books or end up, as Vox says, printing out loads of sheets. In the end, when I choose our hymns, I often revert to AMR (when it isn't un-PC to do so) as the editing in HON is so insensitive. I am now resigned to the fact that we shall probably never sing 'He who would valiant be' as I refuse to offend Bunyan by singing a version which alters 'he' to 'all' through the entire hymn.

I think most of us probably have certain people in our congregations who are always quick to offer thanks and appreciation - a 'fan club' if you like. Regrettably, I'd say the things that I probably get the most obvious positive reactions to are transcriptions - the Dambusters' march and the Verdi Grand March in particular spring to mind here. I've played Lefebure-Wely E flat a couple of times but was surprised at how little reaction it got (although the vicar loves it!). I always mess up the chromatic scales but with that sort of piece I'm not convinced I'm doing the composer a dis-service if the notes aren't quite all there! The Widor is popular (of course!), and Carillon de Westminster usually seems to go down pretty well. I'd love to play the Final from Vierne 1 but its beyond me at the moment. I don't play BWV565 either, I have things I'd rather learn than that. The odd bits of Bach I do play tend to be well-received - I've done the St Anne Fugue a couple of times which has elicited some interest. I have a few other 'silly' pieces that I occasionally roll out (e.g. Hornpipe Humoresque) but they are best served as occasional offerings as I'm sure the effect would pall if I did them regularly. My pieces tend to fall into a few categories I guess - big pieces (e.g. Widor, Vierne) for big services; crowd-pleasers (e.g. Verdi, and I suppose Lefebure-Wely); run of the mill stuff (inoffensive stuff like Ireland's 'Alla marcia' and Dubois's 'Marche-Sortie); and things played for my own personal pleasure which no-one else will enjoy (e.g. Howells' 3rd Rhapsody). I try to balance the four out over time while ensuring that the same pieces don't crop up too often - it's all too easy to play Widor 5 whenever you have a big service, and I'm not someone who will have certain pieces they play on certain festivals and I like to rotate them year on year. I'm always trying to build new stuff in and this autumn I'm hoping to crack the Final from Guilmant 1 and have a go at the first movement of the Elgar Sonata. The only time I had a really adverse reaction to something was when I played movements 4 and 1 respectively of 'L'Ascension' before and after the Mass on the evening of Ascension Day last year. I quite enjoyed using my digital organ's option of alternative voices and thought I created quite a convincing French sound. They really split opinion, as several people have said how much they enjoyed them (obviously totally different to almost anything else I play - I don't play any other Messiaen) but a sizeable number also disliked them, and the Vicar politely asked me not to play them again (they got BWV630 this year). Interestingly, I'd played the first movement after the same service the year before and it passed without comment, so I can only imagine that having it before AND after was too much. Our vicar is pretty forgetful so I might dig one of them out again next year - I doubt he'll remember he banned them! As I said, its a balancing act - try to show them some really good music every now and then, and throw in some pot-boilers and crowd-pleasers to keep them happy too.

Apologies for stumbling across this discussion a little late. Interestingly, I favour a short Tuba Solo at a different point in the Balfour Gardiner - about four bars before the third verse (the second loud entry) as the organ is building up in volume, there is a G minor chord and there is a nice little line which you can solo out there in the tenor, (D-E-G rising to a G# in the following bar). I picked this up from hearing someone else doing it and think it adds to the build-up (and a good way to learn is listening to other people). I was having a think about a few other 'obligato' tuba solos - Dyson in D evening service is full of them. I think I recalled a couple more but forget them now. I think I'd thought of a couple of examples in organ repertoire too. Picking up on something MM said, how common is the practice when accompanying to build up loudly during an organ interlude and reduce the volume below the voices? 'I was glad' is a particularly good example - the monumental introduction deserves to be loud as these are among the most momentous bars in any choral music, but in order for the voices to be heard the volume needs to be taken down a bit. If you want a good example of a big choral accompaniment, the Stanford in A evening service goes all over the place - I'm not sure there's a more difficult evening service to play. Stanford provides some direction and suggestions. I registered it a while ago using general pistons and I think I had something in the realm of 40-50 registration changes, and even some of them weren't that seamless. I guess it's all part of the fun.

Some good points raised. Surely we need to draw a distinction between words which are of a time and a passing fad, and those which are timeless. The choruses I was singing as a child probably aren't much in use nowadays (think 'If I were a butterfly', for example) and have been replaced. Today's will get replaced as well. When we look through our hymnbooks and find such hymns as quoted above, we can probably be rest assured that 90% of them won't be in the next round of hymnbooks in 10-15 years' time. Something else will have replaced them, no doubt. But look at Wesley's hymns, for example, and although he wrote thousands of them, we still have lots of them in popular use. Why? They make wonderful use of Biblical references and are totally founded on scriptures, and express things in language which isn't archaic (occasionally modified, perhaps) and so are still relevant today. Is there anything more profound than 'Changed from glory into glory, till in heaven we take our place, till we cast our crowns before thee, lost in wonder, love, and praise.' Or from one of our other great hymn-writers, Issac Watts 'Were the whole realm of nature mine, that were an offering far too small; love so amazing, so divine, demands my soul, my life, my all.' There are some pretty dreary old hymns which haven't stood the test of time. That is the way of the world - but if verses like those have survived 200-300 years I see no reason why they can't survive the same again. That will be the real test of the longevity of hymns - whether they are still being sung in 30, 50, 100 years time. None of us can know that now. The church needs to realise that Christianity is always relevant - and it is only humans who can make it otherwise. Again, it has survived for so long which must mean something. I always think that an individual church should try to do a particular style of worship well. If its worshippers demand different styles, then they realistically need separate services to fulfil these functions. If a service tries to be 'all things to all men' then it is almost inevitably going to leave everyone dissatisfied in some way. I am quite happy now to leave praise bands etc to the people who do this well while we concentrate on doing mostly traditional hymns with a sprinkling of modern ones (even many of these I could lose though - see above). Attendances at our moderately Anglo-Catholic church are consistently good and the range of ages is wide - with an increasing number of families and young children (in no small part thanks to a 'Mother and Toddler' group which has started recently). I've not yet heard any of them calling for praise bands or the like - and they seem to think we're relevant enough. The reality is that there are plenty of places locally to us where you can find the praise bands and low church stuff, so why try to follow? The church is a diverse beast and we shouldn't all try to be the same.

I posted quite extensively about this organ in another thread not so long ago, as I attend regularly and have accompanied on it on a few occasions - see http://www.mander-organs.com/discussion/in...ost&p=56695. I certainly wouldn't say the organ 'fills the vast church'. I'm not sure any organ which has just two 16' pedal stops (a manual and a reed) is likely to do that in a space that size. To start with, the organ is sited in completely the wrong place for this (down one side) so sound is never going to project effectively to the opposite corner. For congregational singing in the nave, the only real solution would probably be to build a completely new organ on a west gallery. Perhaps if I win the Euromillions tonight I'll give them the money to do this! 'Effectively accompanies a wide choral programme' - well they make the best of it but I can't honestly say it effectively accompanies (I was playing Stanford in C on it only a couple of weeks ago). The lack of any registration aids means some pieces would be totally impossible, and many are quite difficult. It also lacks the sort of colours you might often make use of on a romantic organ (strings, a clarinet or indeed any soft solo reed, etc.). Like I said on the other thread, not a bad instrument per se (I like 'ideosyncratic', partly because its quite a long word but also because its for me an effective descriptor) but less than ideal for what is demanded of it in so many ways.

'O God of burning cleansing flame' is an old Salvation Army hymn by William Booth. It's not even particularly modern. I do know 'See what a morning' - it's a Stuart Townend number. He is of course most famous for 'In Christ alone' which is very well-known principally for the line 'the wrath of God was satisfied' and the penal subsitution theology. I don't object to this hymn as a whole and think its quite well-written, and our vicar has us sing 'the love of God was satisfied' instead. I don't feel strongly about penal substitution because I haven't explored the theological debates enough yet to come to a conclusion one way or the other - one day perhaps I will. Townend's 'The Lord's my shepherd' isn't too bad - it has a chorus with a nice little descant. I've been at a friend's wedding today and they had a worship band (they're from the opposite end of the spectrum to me church-wise - to be fair, they had an evangelical preacher there who spoke well and for only 9 minutes - a wedding isn't exactly the occasion for a long address anyway). Not only was 'Be thou my vision' changed to 4/4 time, they also did it to 'To God be the glory' which in my view swings along very nicely in 3/4. Why do worship bands object to hymns in triple time? We also had an outing for 'Amazing Grace', which I've mentioned above - I'd love someone to write some music which does those words justice. I've done the whole worship band thing and have been to Spring Harvest half a dozen times, but on the last occasion I realised that it had all lost its meaning to me. I do think there are a few good worship songs kicking around out there but many are just very samey. At my last Spring Harvest a few years ago, they sung a very cringeworthy effort which had the chorus 'I'm a friend of God - wo-o-oh' - what the last 'noise' added to the song I don't know. There are a number of other pet hates I have with worship bands. For one thing, I get very frustrated when worship leaders feel the need to incessantly repeat parts of a song - I found Graham Kendrick was particularly bad at this. There was a time when I used to enjoy that style of worship, but I've just lost all interest and enthusiasm. By the way, I've just thought of another hated song - 'Bind us together, Lord' - really dreary and depressing. Another I haven't chosen since I've done a hymn list.

I agree with Stephen on St Patrick's Breastplate, which is one of my favourite hymns - pity we can't sing it that often. 'It is a thing most wonderful' I also find expresses the story of the Passion very personally and simply. It is well matched to 'Herongate', although John Ireland's choral setting for upper voices is also very lovely. I enjoyed MM's interjection on Jerusalem, although it still doesn't make me like it. Bring me my bow, spear, chariots etc - I can do without all of these. Unfortunately, most people like me just make assumptions about its meaning and any sarcasm would be lost on them. Its not a hymn I would ever sing with any conviction (if at all), and it still doesn't say very much to me as a Christian. I agree about 'Amazing Grace'. The words are superb, but the tune is utterly dire and uninspiring. You can do some good bagpipe effects if you have the right kind of reed stop, but that's no good leading a congregation on a Sunday morning. 'Morning has broken' is another wedding hymn which is on the list of those I will groan inwardly at if picked. We have not sung it on a Sunday morning since I started picking the hymns. 'You shall go out with joy' is another that occured to me. It's always more amusing if you actually have someone called Joy in the congregation - one of our basses always remarks that one of his relatives did as instructed, and later married her! Our vicar also likes 'Jubilate, everybody' in a similar repeat and get faster fashion. I grit my teeth when I put those on the hymn list. Graham Kendrick's 'Make way' is uninspiring but a little more bearable. There are relatively few traditional hymns which I dislike quite so much as those I have listed. There is some quite dreary stuff out there, but thankfully most of it doesn't stand the test of time and gets removed from our hymn books. For instance, I dislike 'The strife is o'er' but don't quite know why. 'Forth in thy name, O Lord I go' never leaves me feeling inspired at the end of a service, probably because I dislike the Gibbons tunes (several of which find rather dull). There are a multitude of hymns such as the Jumping Jesus one below which are so bad they are just funny. Hymns Old & New contains several which I've been encouraged to include for a joke one Sunday.

'Give me joy in my heart'. I'm always tempted to substitute the third word for 'despair' whenever it gets picked. That with 'All things' is one of the worst duos possible for weddings, although the latter is improved a little when sung to 'Royal Oak'. 'The purple-headed mountain' causes giggles among the less mature at our place. I don't mind 'Lord of the Dance' too much. Our vicar likes it, and there was a time when we sung it so often it got very wearing. Some fun registration is possible with the whipping and stripping in verse 3, and we tend to sing verse 4 (I danced on a Friday...) at a slower pace before picking up the speed at 'but I am the dance and I still go on'. It is incredibly cheesy, but I don't mind! 'Shine Jesus Shine' I like. It is very far from the worst Graham Kendrick song - it is memorable and gets a congregation singing (and rather well, in my experience). Compare it to 'Beauty for brokenness' and 'Meekness and majesty' both of which are much harder to accompany and to sing - the former is downright confusing! I don't mind 'The Servant King' as Peter refers to, although the points he makes are valid. 'Be still for the presence of the Lord' is good - and a couple of subtle harmonic alterations make it more interesting all round. It is simple but well-conceived and not at all difficult to sing. I agree on 'Make me a channel of your peace' - I think it's dreadful. I also dislike 'The Lord's my shepherd' to Crimond, and when a paraphrase of Psalm 23 is required I would always opt for 'The King of Love' (to Dominus Regit or St Columba) which is much more satisfactory. I could add Jerusalem and 'I vow to thee, my country' wholly because of the words which are far too nationalistic for my tastes and have very little to do with faith whatsoever - such a shame when both are marvellous tunes. I'm shocked 'Dear Lord and Father' gets anywhere near this list though - its one of my favourites and (like 'Love Divine') is one of the wedding/funeral hymns which actually makes me pleasantly surprised.