Lausanne

Probably a version of Vallloti etc. Most if not all organ builders use something other than Equal Temperament now. Manders, Willis and Fisk certainly do, but it depends on the job. Willis's was always to help the Tierce with regards to the thirds. In general Italian organs of two manuals have always had two distinct choruses: the principals forming the Ripieno and the Flutes often been called the Concerto. But these high pitched ranks are usually just an octave of pipes in the base, which then repeats every octave. If this is done with pipes all the way to the top there can be some attempt to blend in with the rest, but often with the typical electric action organs of the last half century in Italy, the same pipes are used throughout and the result is painful. The old Italian used for the ordinals is only otherwise used to denote the Popes. Ordinal cardinals are even more confusing. As to your punishment for leading us (some) a merry septième dance, the board members are still in conclave, but here in Lausanne you would be thrown in to the lake with weights tied to your feet. An alternative is to send you to a remote Italian church with a radiator heating just one end of the organ then ask you to tune the 16 rank mixture that hasn't been tuned for 30 years. You can come out when it's perfect! Although fascinating, without having each of the ranks in the harmonic series under independent expression, almost none of the synthesized tones listed on the Hammond site are possible. In addition, the 8' and 4' on the Hammond are not really like anything on real organs. On the organ I play (with) in Lausanne all divisions are under expression except the Great and Pedal flues, and by using the various octave couplers it is possible to produce clarinet sounds and a passable Saxophone. The latter was created briefly during a service after the priest had joked "I bet the organ doesn't have a saxophone stop" She's more careful about comments she makes regarding the organ now! If this organ has no chiff and doesn't scream, I'm tempted to ask what it's doing in Italy. But perhaps even the Italian Organ builders are now joining the rest of the world in accepting that chiff is more a voicing fault than a pipe characteristic and that upperwork shouldn't 'be heard to' scream. But thankfully for British Organ Building, one isn't. During the 1750-1850s the Italians went in for the most bizarre organ effects to enable them to play operatic and military music in church. Some had real drums and cymbals, while others used combinations of the pedal pipes to make alarming sounds (the French had storm effects too during the same period). The Timpani comprised two pipes tuned a semitone apart and playing together when a pedal note is pressed, supposed to reproduce the roll of a kettledrum. The Rollante was a similar device except it played notes E a G together and was operated by a hitch down lever, producing a rumbling drone effect. Sometimes employed towards the end of unusually long sermons.

As far as I can see from the specification of the new organ in Santa Maria Formosa, there are no Septièmes. However, having now trawled the net for this rare breed in Italy, I have finally caught one. It's in the 1951 Tamburini Organ now erected in San Giovanni di Bosco in Bologna. Called a 'Settima 1,1/7'. The organ was originally in the Roman Auditorium Pio XII. Somebody may well have the specifications of some of the other massive Tamburini organs of the same period and there may well be other 'Settimi' there too. Cavaillè-Coll and later Mutin, desperately tried to introduce some seventh sounding ranks to St. Peter's in Rome. They were to be cleverly concealed within a vast organ to go on the west wall. Unfortunately this project failed to get past the Pope, who realised it was just the French trying to show off. If only they had though, what a sound. The specification may be found on the web site created by Julian Rhodes, well worth a visit if you haven't already. Julian Rhodes' Dream Organs

Assuming we're not talking about fencing, your 'septime' refers to a seventh, but the spec lists a 17th otherwise known as a Tierce, so just for fun, and as there seems to have been some mention of it previously, I shall assume it is a typing error, you'll just have to forgive my sense of humour. And whether seventh or septième the following holds true: The Septième is not an Italian invention and indeed mixtures were only introduced during the 19th century following influence from the rest of Europe. The typical Italian organ contained essentially a blockwerk, so you'll regularly find separate ranks of quints and octaves. The famous organ in St. Petronio (1483) has principal pipes at 16, 8, 4, 4(flauto), 22/3, 2, 11/3, 1. Not only were there no flat 21st they often omitted the note of b flat at both ends of the 50 note compass. However, when mixtures were introduced they took to them with great enthusiasm, regularly adding multiple ranks of the same note: 15,15, 19,19, 22,22,22,22, 26! Of course they would then be subject to a certain amount of neglect, bad tuning and extreme climate, oh, and the odd war, thus quite often after a few decades becoming: 15, (stolen) 19, 18.5, 22, bent over, squashed flat, 21, dead fly. Hence the rumours that Italian organs make unusual sounds. I think AC-C was experimenting with septièmes in 1846, and I noticed you mentioned Jackson which Audsley cites as having used one in his organ for the Collegiate Institution in Liverpool in 1850. Perhaps it was the use of the stop in the Notre-Dame organ in 1868 that really led to its wider use. That's wider in the rather narrow septieme sense. John Compton was interested in them too, but remarked that adding them may call for even higher partials to be corroborated by the introduction of onzièmes and treizièmes etc...there to please any passing bat. Tierce ranks are not unheard of in Italian organs, but again, are a foreign influence. The sesquialtera and cornet 'stops' were only seen after about 1680 and spread from the north. Probably they were as a result of the Flemish Jesuit Willem Hermans and the Silesian Eugenio Caspar according to research done in the Bergamo area. (I've just noticed that Pierre gave a very interesting account on this, including the theory that the celeste came from Italy - although really a German builder, in the Casparini thread of Feb.5th) The Italians (well the organists anyway) are very proud of their organ heritage and claim the Ripieno is the Italian organ sound. I would hazard a guess that the only major difference between their principal chorus and those of the northern Europe is that the scales of the higher ranks are still quite large. The idea that a 15th might be there to support and enhance the 3rd upper partial of the unison either did not exist or was not considered as important as making a powerful sound/harsh noise. Italian organ building seems to have clung rigidly to the old ways. There are one or two exceptions to this, such as the Mascioni organ at the Chiesa Parrocchiale di San Carlo in Magadino on which Pierre Cocherreau recorded works by Bach, Couperin, Vierne and Messiaen, finishing with one of his legendary improvisations. I found it a revelation for several reasons, firstly I couldn't believe it was an Italian organ and secondly, there was so much life in both the Bach and Couperin. The recording is on the Ermitage label ERM 176-2. There are no independent Third sounding ranks on this organ and certainly no Septièmes. I doubt also that the two mixtures contain any tierces either, the spec. I have doesn't give the mixture details. So, the search for hidden Italian Septièmes (Vigesimoprimo-bemolle?!!) has now been launched. Does Santa Maria Formosa (virgin with curves!) in Venice hold the only known breeding pairs of this rare species?

If you expand any more you may explode! It was simply your use of the word 'beat' that I wished to clarify. There had recently been a whole load of nonsense on another organ forum about tuning Tierce ranks flat. As a physicist with a family background in organ building I have no need of lectures on sound waves, particularly in a thread supposedly about FHW's organs, however, don't let me stifle your enthusiasm, and yes I do understand the connection between FHW and the Tierce.

And we expect the new British Organ being installed this year in Florence will also be appreciated by one or two Italian organists, particularly as it will not 'buzz' quite as excruciatingly as the 1978 Italian job it replaces, that broke down after only eight years. Having spent quite a time viewing and working on Italian organs, I would tend to agree with MM. However, I am glad that Venice is to receive a new instrument, I just hope it is built to last, or at least float when the floods come.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you wrote, but most tuners tune Tierce ranks (whether in a mixture or alone) so they don't beat against the Octave or Fifteenth.

Wien - Vienna. Viennese flute. Really just another name for Concert or Orchestral Flute. According to Audsley, although both the Wienerflöte and Harmonica have the characteristic circular mouth over which the wind is blown, the body of the Harmonica is deeper. That is, they look wider from the side than they do from the front. As Pierre says, the Harmonica has string tone, but is often considered a blend of string and flute. Walcker made several variations of the orchestral flute, the ones (8' & 4') at Lausanne are not harmonic.

As has been already stated, an organist's faith or lack of has nothing to do with their ability to play the organ. This Forum does not have the word Church in the title, it is open to any person who is interested in the instrument. You could, of course, re-register under another pseudonym, leaving us all to guess. If everyone had to stick to making sure everything they said was absolutely free from any possible misinterpretation, libel, or 100% factually correct, the whole thing would grind to a halt.

I certainly hadn't meant to criticise the enormous effort and fund raising that these church make-overs entail. At seeing the plans several years ago now, I had been relieved to see the organ chamber still there. But now having seen the carpet everywhere, even on the seat backs and given that so many churches have done the same or are considering it, perhaps just a little discussion involving all those DOAs on the Forum is urgently required. Assuming that it hasn't been done to death already. Are all churches willing to listen to and act upon such details as 'carpets stop people singing, because all they hear is themselves and that wonderful sound of massed voices ringing out is lost'? At the Church I attended whilst growing up in Cottingley (Bradford Disocese), a modern square building, all the floor was parquet. The acoustics were good AND there was a thriving youth group, invited rock bands and a real sense of welcome. All this was possible without a single piece of carpet. Of course the building was so modern (hyperparabolic roof) that it had to be demolished and a new one is being built surrounded by a whole community centre, housing, doctor's surgery and a Police station. Perhaps in St. Mary's Frizinghall, given the variety of flooring (stone or concrete, wood, tile) the only cost effective solution was to carpet the whole lot. And Tony, I hadn't meant to point the finger regarding the NPOR, I now realise that there are many organists and churches who still don't know about this very useful archive, so a few over-worked volunteers are having to do it all.

As Reeds in the Grove had started one or two other topics. Here's one that escaped. A rare story of an organ surviving in the Bradford Diocese, well physically at least, but I think the acoustics that MM remembers from his youth may have been well and truly destroyed by the wall to wall carpet. The only advantage of this sea of carpet (for it is blue) is so that babies can crawl anywhere they like and not hurt their knees - I think. I had hoped on seeing the earlier photos of the beautiful Victorian tiles they had found in the chancel, that at least this section of the Church would have been spared the rug, but apparently not. However, looking on the bright side, the organ still exists, but perhaps only because it would have cost too much to throw it away. Let's hope that eventually one of the babies grows up to hate the sound of the synthesiser and drum kit they use and proves to be a gifted organist (despite the carpet burns on her knees). Here is a link to the plans of the church in its new state. I can fully appreciate the need to have all these facilities in the community centre that most Churches now feel they have to be in order to survive. I have just noticed that if they'd knocked a hole in the wall between the new church hall (old North aisle), they could have used the organ for Blackpool style tea dances. http://www.smcf-church.org.uk/img/e2s/1972...20plan%2012.JPG The organ doesn't seem to appear on the NPOR, but I hope this will soon be updated.

Quite a coincidence, and praise indeed from MM for an organ built at the start of the 20th century. I can only imagine the 'obscure reason' for placing the 'toilet flush effect' at a similar height to the pipes would be to avoid sucking in the freezing cold air that is well known to lurk around the floor level of churches, particularly in Yorkshire. The church would have saved electricity by leaving the blower running through the sermon, assuming that there weren't too many air leaks. Did you actually manage to play Bach on this organ?

Thanks Tony, I'd checked the NPOR data and it seemed close enough, although there are one or two errors on the Bingley Parish Church information for example, the 1922 D & H organ was new apart from a pedal OD from the F & A of 1870 and two OD ranks from the previous 1852 (Hill?) organ. The organist there used to be our village organist (Cottingley), a lovely man, Malcolm Bentley, parhaps you know him. By 1932 the firm had built 44 new organs, 1 one manual, 39 two manual and 4 three manual: Wibsey Congregational, Bradford, The Anglican Parish Church, Bingley, Fullneck Moravian College, Pudsey and The Primitive Methodist Church, Saltaire Rd. Shipley. 15 of the new organs were in Bradford, of which I think only Frizinghall Parish Church 2 manual still exists, but probably remains unplayed, silently collecting dust. If you have time, I'd welcome a report from you on its state. A few years back John Clough told me it was still functioning. He was also the person who removed the choir division from Idle Parish Church organ: an enlarged Forster & Andrews. The church only keep it for weddings, otherwise, the vicar told me, it would have been thrown out long ago. The exhaust pneumatic is quite explosive, takes a while to get used to. Apparently the church decided they couldn't afford John Clough to look after it any more so Mr Fletcher does what he can, when he's allowed in. The high pressure Tromba, in what remains of the choir, is a fine stop - it was in tune when I played it! John Driver (my Granddad's uncle) was the reed voicer. In addition to their new organs, D & H had also rebuilt 58 organs prior to 1932, which usually meant new action, either tracker or exhaust pneumatic and additional stops with often any wild reeds tamed to suit the period. The booklet states that the list of new and rebuilt organs, was just 'some of our organs', but I can't imagine they forgot to mention any! As far as I know there is only one example of this '50 year celebration booklet' kept by my uncle. I have asked him about giving any relevant documents to the Birmingham archive, but he doesn't want to. However, he did eventually agree to let them photocopy the 'tunings log book' and 'work in hand' etc., but these only seemed to go back to WW2. There may be others, but he's not found them (apparently). He has a vast basement and attic stuffed full of things he rescued when the works closed, but most of it must have rotted or rusted away by now. I have a photocopy of the booklet and could scan the pages to send to you. David

Thanks MM, for fleshing out your G D-H/Schulze link. I too would probably have given the common link as Silbermann. The founder of the Schulze firm (J.F.), born in the year Silbermann died, is said to have been influenced by his powerful flue choruses and solid construction techniques. I see Pierre is offering more information on this topic. My story of the Aeolian organ had suffered from the Chinese whispers syndrome, but I'm very pleased to hear that it actually existed. Your extra details, mercury cup contacts etc. explain perfectly why it gave my granddad such trouble. I remember also something about it being quite a heavy thing to move! But is it still in St. Anne's RC? Or have the health and safety team bricked up the whole thing? The Smith chap may very well be the Lathe factory magnate: after your great tale, I certainly hope so. The other link to the 'Aeolian' Smith is that I think his were those fabulous model steam engines seen at the entrance to Bingley Library. I apologise at this point to the majority of members who may be wondering what this has to do with organs! ------------------------ And to Cynic, if the organ bug is a disease, there are far too many who are completely immune. I've tried giving it to my partner, but to no avail. I have to find someone else to hold the keys. Thanks for the info on the Leominster Organ, a 2 manual according to the opus list I have here published in the 50 year celebration booklet in 1932. They had several far flung contracts with the Moravians, as the Pudsey Moravian community recommended them. I don't think that organ survived or will no doubt have been modified if it has. Simon Lindley may still live close by and I know he has survived and no one has yet had the cheek to modify him. Driver & Haigh was founded in 1882 by Joseph Driver (born 1856 in Cowling), but it is possible that he was in business prior to this date with someone else called Lupton. I have yet to find out with whom Joseph trained. Haigh was the 'financial' side of the partnership and took no part in the actual organ building, so I'm told. They took over Spencer (Frank?) organ builder's of Nesfield st. Bradford. Then moved to larger premises in Houghton Place, then 135 East Parade and finally a large four-storey building at 26 Snowdon Street in 1912. In 1965 the building was subject to a compulsory purchase order as there was a new road planned. This new road didn't appear for another 25 years! There was another Driver (& Co.) building organs in the same region (Burnley), but apparently no relative. There were four generations of Drivers who worked for the firm: Driver I: Joseph Driver II: Thomas-Henry (brothers Sam (went to Canada), John stayed at home and voiced reeds, Charles (became an organ builder in New Zealand) and Leonard who died young. Driver III: Gilbert Driver IV: Colin, apprenticed at the same time as John Clough, they both worked for Walkers when D & H closed, and after a spell with Conackers I believe, John set up on his own. My Granddad thought John was the best apprentice he'd ever had. Gilbert's daughter Sandra was my mother. Although it's nice to know there are one or two surviving examples of the company's work, I don't shed a tear when another one goes. I've moved on, and am enjoying being involved in projects to build new organs, and know a good sound when I hear it. Unfortunately there seem to be far more poor organs around (Lausanne certainly) at present than good ones, but then it's a matter of taste - perhaps.

Yes, and the family thought they'd managed to get out of Organ 'business' when the firm closed in 1968 or thereabouts, but it must be a strong gene as despite pretending to be a University research fellow in materials, I now spend most of my time repairing, tuning, playing and talking about organs. There are few D & H organs around now, mainly because so much of the post war jobs (as with many builders) were rebuilds of existing instruments. Many also fell victim to the baroque brigade. I have almost forgiven Francis Jackson for advising Bingley Parish Church to remove the D & H three manual (always considered a small Cathedral organ), only to have Walkers put in another second hand organ (Hill in parts!) from a redundant church in Bradford, and then add the little baroque positive. But the story about the Aeolian Skinner they installed is as much information as I have at present. No doubt my uncle would remember a bit more, but he often prefers not to talk about the company as it was a difficult period just before it closed down. He much preferred to tinker with his motorbike. My grandad on my father's side was also an organ builder (everyone was in those days apparently!), he worked for Thomas Hughes, but didn't survive the war.

Yes, inspiration is the key word I think. I've never thought of G D Harrison as being inspired by Schulze, but I see what you mean. However, on first playing the Skinner organs he rebuilt, the most obvious additions are the baroque positive divisions, which I imagine were to make the organs more eclectic if used with a careful selection of the rest of the organ. To what extent did he change the main principal choruses, apart from perhaps loosing one or two of the six Open Diapasons (2 leathered, 1 covered in treacle)? Thankfully at least on those I've managed to play (St. Thomas's 5th Ave, NY. and Ist Church of Christ Scientist, Boston) there is still enough of the Skinner work left to enjoy. At the latter church, though, the Skinner voicing has been sabotaged by the placement of the dreaded acoustic tiles in the domed roof. During one piece I was trying out, I reached for the Swell Trumpet, hoping to hear something impressive, the effect was as if I had just added a smooth Gamba! I had to pull out all the Swell reeds to get the effect I was looking for. Did you, MM, ever get to play the Aeolian Skinner organ in Keighley? I can't remember where it was, it may have been a house organ (the engineer/businessman W.H. Smith rings a bell). My uncle told me that my Grandfather (Gilbert Driver) was very impressed with the voicing, though restoration of the action had given him one or two sleepless nights. No doubt it was destroyed in the 60s.

Here is a link to the photos of the Walcker free reed oboe at Christ Church Lausanne: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=1164...mp;id=547372733 The vital statistics in mm of the CC (1), C (13), c (25), c' (37) and c'' (49) pipes are: Boot length: 650, 450, 255, 205, 205 Boot diameter at block: 60, 50, 38, 30, 24. Boot toe hoe: 6, 5, 4, 5, 3. Resonator length: 1210, 610, 280, 210, 185. Resonator mouth internal diameter: 75, 58, 44, 34, 24. Resonator diameter in block: 14, 12, 11, 5.5, 5. Shallot length from block: 100, 61.5, 43, 24, 17. Reed tongue width: 9, 5, 4, 5, 3.75. As the tongues are riveted to the shallot, I'd prefer not to dismantle them to measure the tongue thickness. Bottom C's tongue is approximately 1.5 mm thick with a 45° chamfer. The reed becomes beating at treble C (37) - which explains the sudden increase in tongue width. From middle C (25) up the cylindrical part of the boot is (or what looks like) chrome plated! Of the Walcker organs listed on the NPOR, only two appear to have their original oboe: Lochmaben 1903, and Dalziel Parish Church, Motherwell, Lanarkshire, 1900. As the sound is reminiscent of the bag pipes, it isn't a surprise that Scotland has kept hold of their Walcker Oboes. I don't know whether they were the free reed variety as they are 20 years later than ours and those in Riga Cathedral (1883). Sound files on their way, but may be next week as there are rehearsals tomorrow and a big choral concert on Sunday - Rutter's requiem. I'll send you the images by PM, Pierre, as you will see higher resolution than that shown on the site where I've posted them.

If Schulze's influence was 'a very powerful one' then wouldn't we expect to hear more organs that sounded like Armley? Is it just that the fabulous acoustics make it sound so unique? I would like to think that I can recognise those Armley principals after three years in the choir there, but I've yet to come across a decent copy. They're also different to those at Doncaster. Certainly the local builders were interested by this new powerful sound, but by 1905 Binns for one, was all for removing two ranks of the Great Mixtur V fach in the lower octaves as well as making several other 'adjustments'. Most of his suggestions were quashed by the person who really did 'revere' Schulze, the then organist Thomas Cawthra. Some of the Binns 'improvements' were sneaked past, such as rubber weights on the bass reed tongues and raising the pressure of the Echo so that his action would work, amongst other things. The majority of British organs built after 1878, even by those builders who we now refer to as Schulze disciples, had to satisfy the clients who paid for them. Several organists who played the Armley organ during the late Victorian and Edwardian period were shocked by the sound, finding the jump from Great with Rausch Quint to the Mixture too large a step. The Mixture is almost as loud as the rest of the Great. Although it is true that the effect is less shocking and more effective down in the Nave. Perhaps also those organists who were impressed couldn't quite see the Schulze Great Chorus working in your average British Church. Violette certainly had Schulze's scales etc. for the pipes he made for the Doncaster organ. The pipes being made in Germany were the 32' and 16' free reeds in the pedal and wood ranks. So builders could have specified 'Schulze style' metal pipes if they had wanted to. Quite a few did, but I don't think the major builders at the time ripped up all their scales and slavishly followed the Master from Paulinzelle. Both Willis and Lewis were independently using similar tin/lead ratios to those of Schulze. Töpfer's scales were published in Britain in F.E. Robertson's Practical Treatise on Organ-Building in 1897. Fr Willis seems to have been far more interested in the Echo Oboe at Armley and refused to believe it was a wood pipe until he was actually taken inside to see it for himself. Abbot & Smith copied this stop voiced on 1.5" for the Leeds Parish Church Organ, but I'm not sure that Willis used the Schulze Echo Oboe (we'll no doubt be informed). Abbot & Smith were also not so powerfully influenced in their 1900 C&O to stop them replacing the Schulze Rohrflöte with one of their tapered Celestes. Binns had wanted to track down the missing rank, but never did. Most of the above history is from Kenneth I Johnstone's The Armley Schulze Organ 2nd ed. 1985. And... This afternoon, whilst gardening at Church, I cut down all the reeds in the grove, as the wind (high pressure westerly) was playing havoc with them.

Ian has kindly sent me several photos, but the resolution is not really high enough to pick out detail. I have selected a few that show the most interesting details, I can add more later with Ian's permission, and they should be available here: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=1139...mp;id=547372733 Audsley mentions that the tumbler coupler was used during the first half of the 19th century and a modified version, allowing adjustment as this one has, was invented by Kirtland & Jardine of Manchester. However, he describes there being troughs cut in the surfaces of the key tails to allow the stickers or 'jacks' to slide. I can't see such troughs, but it may just be that the photos don't pick them up.

Of the three points you say Audsley insists upon, the first is true, he advocates that the same note played successively on the 8', 4' and 2' ranks within the same division should decrease slightly in volume. Your last point is partly what he says: the idea that as the harmonics heard from one pipe decrease as they become higher, then the volume of the pipes that corroborate each harmonic should also decrease. But here he is speaking of flue chorus compound corroborating stops. A mixture voiced to speak with a reed chorus would not appear to obey this 'rule' if used with the flue chorus, so it seems that each of his ideal divisions would be dominated by the reed(s). I can't find any reference in his work insisting on fewer ranks as the mixture ascends. But as it often happens in practice in the top octave it isn't unusual. On the subject of scale. He suggests (vol. 1 p.442) that the Great mixture(s) should be of medium scale pipes giving a full round tone. The Swell mixture should be of smaller scale pipes with a bright ringing tone, whereas he reserves the small scales for the choir mixture, of Dulciana pipes. Each mixture should match the chorus in its division. He describes, but does not criticise, the large scaled five rank Cornet made by the German Organ Builders. Where he describes the Dulciana Cornet it is because he wished to have a Cornet effect in his chamber organ and so the scales had to be small or his neighbours would have complained! Or rather, to blend with the other softly voiced pipe work. His books appeared at a time when Organs in the UK and US were being strangled by conservative late Victorian ideals that saw no place for such things as Mixtures and he defends and explains their use rather well. His writing style is verbose and many of his ideas are simply him dreaming out loud (*Pedal divisions under expression), but for the diagrams alone, the two volumes are historically very important. I agree there are a few errors, such as the relief pallet motor needing to be at groove pressure rather than to air (Vol. 2 p. 239, Fig. CLXXVI). It is a great pity that church architects rarely read chapter II on the position of the organ. So many organs, particularly in British Churches, continue to be hidden away in almost sound proof boxes, jokingly called organ chambers. *Didn't Walcker introduce this idea?

The more photos the better Ian! There are several free sites you can join and post images on, Facebook is one. Or send them to me via PM and I'll put them on mine. Just looking more closely on the ebay photos reveals some interesting points: The stop knob for the Open Diapason is different to the rest. It has red initial letters, and refers to "Open Diap. Large 8 ft". As there is only one OD on this instrument, the stop knob is likely from another organ. Also, all the other stops knobs only list the number without the 'ft'. To add to the Bishop & Son idea, the diapason stop knob is actually typical of that firm, during the Bishop & Star period, where all initial letters (including their impressive brass name plate) were in red. I'm willing to believe though that other builders also used this style during the same period, but I've not seen any examples. As to the Clarabella stop knob, the inclusion of the word 'stopt' suggests that this was not from a Bishop organ. The yellowing of a few others, doesn't necessarily suggest they are from elsewhere, as Ivory often ages at different rates, and of course depends on use. Perhaps the OD stop knob was replaced because the engraving had completely worn off. It seems that there are at least two builders involved. The absence of any obvious name plate suggests that neither Bishop nor Wadsworth actually built or rebuilt the organ as it stands now. I would think that there was a third builder who put the whole thing together, or made significant repairs. Let's hope that the pipes are at least from the same builder. The casework finials don't seem quite elaborate enough to be the work of Bishop & Son. Theirs were more like little castle turrets, but again, there may well have been many exceptions, particularly for a house organ. Did the Church in which it stood for 100 years tell you about the original stencilled façade pipes? It seems a shame these were discarded. You might be able to eliminate Bishop & Son by contacting them (Mr Maurice Merrell), their telephone numbers are on the easy-to-find web site. Given the 'Grafton Esq, Heysham Hall' clue, if it is B & S, then they should have records of it. They have been very helpful in the past.

Not only was Paul extremely helpful, I would say he was rather more accurate with Wadsworth than your suggestion of Bishop & Son. Firstly, when you see several builders listed and the word rebuild on the NPOR list, you can not be certain that the console or anything else is actually from the original builder. On the one in the link you gave there had been two subsequent builders. You will have noticed that the key cheeks on your organ are quite simple: square with 45° corners and in fact very typical of Wadsworth and another Northern builder Wilkinson of Kendal (I don't think it is one of his though). The drawstops are set in two box sections and many of Wadsworth's organs were built like this. Other clues that we have to work on to help date the organ are the stop names. The use of Hautboy and Gemshorn together gives a pretty good indication of the date. Wadsworth for example was using Hautboy up until 1870 and together with Gemshorn in the 1860s. Only very rarely do you find anything other than oboe after 1870. You might like to compare your console with two Wadsworth organs at St John's Kirk Merrington, Durham 1866 and Cranborne, Dorset 1880 on the NPOR. I realise they are not the same size, but comparing size and similar specifications is not the best way to track down a mystery builder. As well as Paul's description of the stop action, does the organ have splayed backfalls? Or is there a more usual roller board? Wadsworth was well known for using the former action. There are a few Wadsworth's listed for Surrey which ties in with the information you have too. Of Course if it is Bishop & Son, there will almost certainly be a label to that effect on the inside of the wind chest. Are there opus numbers stamped on the wood pipes? Bishop & Son had reached Opus 1551 by 1896, and it would be unusual for any Bishop organ not to have opus numbers. An Opus number in the 100s is more likely to be Wadsworth than Bishop & Son. Keep digging for clues!

I have just found an essay by Stephen Bicknell on Carlton Michell (Bios Journal no. 23). In this he quotes Bonavia-Hunt as saying that the high pressure reeds in Michell and Thynne's 1885 Exhibition Organ were made and voiced by W. J. Northcott, a trade supplier who had trained with Walker. He later mentions that the firm of Kitsell were probably responsible for the zinc pipes, with much of the other pipes from Palmer (successor to John Courcelle), but of course this still leaves the actual voicing of the flues to Wm Thynne. Apparenty, Lewis was furious with Thynne, and accused him of not only stealing trade secrets from him, but half of his staff too! Bicknell speculates that Northcott's high pressure reed voicing most likely will have been influenced by Lewis. So, Yes, the organ was a daring and successful experiment, but we can't really consider Thynne as being a major player in the development of high pressure reed voicing. Assuming that Bonavia-Hunt didn't make the whole thing up of course.

Dear Pierre, I'll see what I can do, if I have time next week, pictures should be easy, but we may have to wait for me to work out the best way to produce a sound file that does it justice. I suppose it has to be said that the main reason they are rare is that most of the pipes tend to sound more like a harmonium than an oboe, but as your piece in German mentions (I think!) it has a mild intonation which allows it to blend very well, particularly with the other Walcker stops. The tenor octave has a really nice sound that is actually quite close to an oboe. I forgot to mention that it is an 8' stop and on 3.5 inches wind. I had a well respected reed voicer, Jean-Marie Tricoteaux, restore it, there was quite a bit of lead corrosion to the blocks (the top boards are oak) and the usual splits to a few of the boots, but the tongues and resonators had pretty much survived. It turns into a beating reed somewhere around the fourth octave. Sorry about the odd font changes in the piece about the organ on the church web site, somebody else has sole responsibility for this and refuses offers of help. I hope to sort it out soon and add more interesting photos. And Paul, many thanks for the link to your organ project. You've certainly got something to keep you busy for several years to come. David

I shall try to avoid using the word 'rebuild' as it obviously upsets some people, but having now let Pierre and Paul hit the ball back and forth a few posts, there does appear to be consensus. One possible model for consideration in the eventual 'restoration' might be that which M & T originally envisaged, rather than what they were forced to do in a hurry. But I'm sure somebody would say that would destroy a vital piece of organ history. My experience working with organ advisers here in Switzerland is that their knowledge of how materials age and react to environmental changes (particularly the use of modern heating) is not often based on any scientific fact or even observation. There are also those (purists) who claim every building technique used more than 50 years ago has to be restored as is. Well this would have meant in one 1907 Goll rebuild of a 1895 Bishop Organ, that a taschenladen windchest (with 100 yr old cardboard tubes) made of the cheapest pine, with little or no surface protection, all glued to the Bishop mahogany top board, that had been badly repaired several times, and full of splits, was going to be 'restored'. I gave a presentation to the 30 or so 'experts' from across the country and had to explain just how difficult it would be to separate the two glued pieces without destroying both. It may not surprise anyone to know that none of the 30 'experts' were actually engaged in Organ Building. Thankfully a few had some knowledge of basic wood working. In the end they were convinced that as there were many better examples of Goll's work in the country, only the parts of the organ that were by Bishop (one slider chest had somehow survived the Goll 'restoration') should be restored and two new chests could be made to match the existing one. The work has yet to start, I am keeping the thing playing until they have sufficient funds for one of the four OB's who will be asked to tender (2 Swiss and 2 UK). A similar, but better Bishop Organ was scrapped over ten years ago from the Geneva Anglican church and replaced by yet another baroque copy by Kuhn. Pierre might be interested to know that despite much pressure from the Swiss organists, I will not allow them to replace the Walcker-Tschanun organ at the Lausanne Anglican church, just so they can show off their Bach technique. It has one of the last remaining examples in Switzerland of the Walcker free-reed oboe from 1878. The old choir organ (originally IP tracker) has the original cone-valve chest, now operated by an exhaust Barker of 1924 in the IIIP puffer membrane pneumatic. The rest is a reasonably well constructed system, that after my overhaul in 1994 now works very well with just the occasional tweak to regulate some notes affected by the humidity changes. Mark Venning mentioned that Tschanun's laying of the tubing wasn't as neat as it could have been, but this doesn't compromise its efficiency. Contrabombarde recently dropped by and managed to drive the old thing through Guilmant's first sonata with only a moment before to work out what did what (nothing is quite where you would expect it and there are ventil pistons galore). So Pierre, most of us on this forum are protecting the old as well as encouraging the new. There are many churches and concert halls, though, where the organ really needs to be in a user friendly condition or it may find itself thrown in a skip and replaced with something pretending to be a pipe organ. Tewkesbury Abbey is not in this situation of course. Did you hear about the Thynne organ that was bulldozed into the dust this year at what used to be Battersea Polytechnic? The reeds on that had had new shallots and revoicing by HN & B in 1924, so perhaps not such a catastrophy, but worrying as according to the NPOR no organ adviser or English Heritage were involved. And if Thynne is pronounced 'Tin', I may have to write another limerick. Barry's Tuba thread has long since frayed into several others. Could Cynic perhaps start a new thread please with a few photos of the leviathan he is planning to build?

The reed voicer at Walkers responsible for altering the Thynne Tuba was a Mr Northcott, according to Bernard Edmonds in the BIOS Reporter (can't remember the date), but whether Goody or Northcott or both, it can't be said to be in its original state. Even though Mr Budgen may have got it sounding as close as possible to how it did in 1885. It is unfortunate that there are so few examples of Thynne's work as he was obviously a key player in the development of the (English) organ. Does anyone know of the present condition of his organ he made with Beale in 1896 for St. John the Divine, Richmond? The 'family tree' of Michell and Thynne is interesting. Thynne learnt from, and possibly influenced, Lewis who was inspired by Schulze and the use of roller beards etc. can be traced back to him. Schulze appears to have had more influence on British Organ building than he did back in Germany. Michell went on to teach Thynne's string voicing to Hope-Jones in the US. I hope that soon the Grove organ will be rebuilt to preserve the sound. Restoration may be the wrong word to use, given the mixture of actions, which apparently make the instrument difficult to play. No doubt there will be committees working long hours deciding on just what gets preserved.