Lausanne

So if I understand correctly, would we recognise Thynne's flue work as having German characteristics? Is his work even more 'germanic' than the many Organ Builders who were influenced by what Schulze built in England? Are there still original examples of Thynne's flue and reed work that we could hear, or do we only have written evidence in the form of reviews from 'Musical Opinion' etc.? And going back to the original theme: Hands up anyone who has a Thynne Tuba out there voiced on 20". There once was a voicer called Thynne, Whose reeds were remarkably fine. When compared with the rest, He was heard to protest: "They're not Willis or Schulze, They're MINE!"

Dear Barry, Sorry I didn't see your reply sooner. And don't worry about the lost email, it was sent a long time ago and may well have been stopped by your spam filter, it's happened before, not sure why 'diapason@...' requires censoring. I agree with the other posts that the whole topic of introducing traditionally 'foreign' sounding pipes into an organ is fascinating. As Karl mentioned, it will be refreshing for organists (and the congregations/audiences) to have more variety. Germany may still be quite conservative about what constitutes an organ, although I will be pleased to hear from members who know of examples of non-German builders having the opportunity to build in the country. Perhaps Austrian and Hungarian OBs are too close in style to be classed as 'foreign'. German reeds, even in the 19th century were considered by some to be less musical than the French type. Mr Kennedy was quite keen that Cavaillé-coll should make the reeds for the Schulze organ (now at Armley). A long period of letters back and forth between the two builders eventually concluded in Schulze putting his own reeds in as Cavaillé-coll was worried about how his would sound with the rest of the organ. As the Magdeburg Tuba has been made by a well-known maker who has produced many examples before, all the essential elements are there. The pressure has to be high enough to allow the tongue to cut off the air as it closes even with the extra, but subtle, curvature at the tip to prevent it slapping the shallot. There are quite a few different examples that the Schuke men will find around the UK. Some of the tongues will be weighted, some will be very much wider than others at the free end, they will find also find that there is no standard thickness for the brass. They may return rather more confused than when they set out. If they'd like the brass tongues to be made with the exact curvature of those made by Fr Willis at the end of the last century (for example), then all you need do is put them through the machine made to do the job. It still works and is currently to be found at the Rotunda works, St. Anne Street, Liverpool! Has the approximate pressure for the Tuba been decided upon?

There are many photos of the construction of the Magdeburg Schuke at the Cathedral Organ web site: http://www.domorgel-magdeburg.de/index.html There is one shot of what may be the Tuba Mirabilis complete with hoods and nicknamed the Terminator, but Barry will be able to confirm this. I notice also that the servo lever is the American version made by Laukhuff rather than the European one (Willis 1884).

Dear Barry, It is a shame that Schuke reed voicers didn't attend the Harrison Reed Voicing work shop, held this month. It was oversubscribed many months back. Some Americans were there to 'learn' how to make Willis reeds for a large concert hall organ they're doing. I realise this is no help whatsoever, sorry. I did write to you on the subject of British Organ Building some years back, but you never replied. Perhaps if you had, we could have sorted out your current problem. I'm sure eventually what you end up with will work well with the rest of the instrument.

It might be worth paying a visit to your nearest organ builder. When things are going well in the works they can be very friendly people and you may well be given a few off-cuts of both felt and leather, or be able to buy what you need from them. Felt can be bought from craft shops, but you may have difficulty finding the right thickness. Again, I stress, that without seeing the actual design of the pedal board it is difficult to say exactly what material you may need in order to prevent the wobble and if it was, as you say, a non-standard design the wobble may be inherent. I agree with you that this forum has a wide range of talent, but most have a specific field and that may just be an interest in the organ. People are free to offer whatever advice or opinions they want, and usually will be 'corrected' if somebody has a different view! Good luck with your wobble! David

The screen name of a forum member prompted me recently to investigate the fate of the organ of Westgate Baptist Church in Bradford. This was the first church I attended as a young boy and so will be where I first heard the organ, unless a few months before I was born, my mother helped her father on his tuning round. According to the NPOR, the organ was an early work of J.J. Binns and although still used, is in a poor condition. However, to add insult to injury, the church has been divided in half horizontally by the addition of a ceiling at the height of the gallery. The Organ is now out of sight above the ceiling while the console (which I think was just behind the central pulpit) remains down below. I imagine this was to save on heating costs, but it must look dreadful, and the sound may not be quite what it was either! Does the ceiling vibrate when a certain pedal note is played? Perhaps The Reverend Newnham can shed more light on this. When I joined the Anglican church in Lausanne the organ hardly played at all and previously the council had decided to build a toilet inside the organ chamber. They assumed that nobody would ever need get in to tune the organ as it didn't work anyway! After a year or so of re-leathering and other repairs I brought the organ (IIIP pneumatic) back to life, but had to saw a large chunk out of the top of the 'convenience' cabinet to allow access to the pipes. I frequently take revenge on anyone who dares answer the call of nature during my postlude by drawing the pedal 16' reed, the largest pipes of which are a few feet away from the unsuspecting victim. Any more stories out there of similar 'Cruelty to Organs'?

Hello 'Squinius', Without seeing your actual pedal board it is difficult to offer advice. However, the sprung steel hinge you have is a very common method of pedal board construction that has been in use for well over a hundred years. I've never found a broken one. Certainly the amount of movement the plate undergoes is very unlikely to cause cyclic fatigue. Metal fatigue can also be caused by corrosion and other factors but I am assuming you were referring to fatigue caused by repeated tension and compression. If the amount of twist affects your playing you should first check that the screws holding the plates to the pedals and frame are tight. Then investigate the other end of the pedals where they should pass through a register of either wood or metal. If it consists of metal rods separating each pedal, there may be leather around the pedal at this point, or sometimes felt, to reduce any sideways movement (and twist). This also limits noise. There will also be thick felt pads beneath. If the leather is absent, you may be able to improve things by adding some. With a wooden register, excess pedal 'play' is usually rectified by glueing shims of hard wood to the sides of the register reducing the space between the register bars and the pedals. It is often the case that pedal boards supplied with electronic organs are not always as robust as those built for pipe organs. It was not clear from your post which type your practice organ is. Hope this helps. David

Dear John, I've just noticed that you posted the above etymological suggestion twice, but nobody seemed to hear you over the noise from the chamades. The on-line Trésor de la Langue Française supports your idea: Empr. à l'ital. du nord ciamada (FEW, t. 2, p. 730; DEI; DAUZAT73; v. ROHLFS, t. 1, § 179 et 201) part. passé fém. du verbe ciamà « appeler » (DAUZAT73); ciamada correspond. au toscan chiamata « appel » part. passé fém. de chiamare « appeler », du lat. clamare (clamer). L'hyp. d'un empr. au port. chamada « id. » (DIEZ5, p. 542; REW3, no 1961) est moins satisfaisante du point de vue hist., étant donné le grand nombre des termes milit. empruntés par le fr. à l'italien. Sorry about the abbreviations in French, roughly it states that the word chamade was borrowed by the French from the northern Italian word ciamada which is the feminine past participle of the verb ciamà (to call) and this comes from the Latin clamare. It then mentions the hypothesis that the word was borrowed from the Portuguese is less satisfying from an historical point of view, given the large number of military terms borrowed by the French from the Italians. So perhaps a chamade is the musical equivalent of the exclamation mark!

Thank you for the information Andrew, if there is also building work and asbestos (to stop the Tromba setting on fire?) removal at Redcliffe, that would certainly account for a good deal of the figure. I posed the question about how the IBO might work, I did not assume. I have a great deal of respect for the high standards and hard work of all the members of the IBO, particularly Manders and Harrison & Harrison, so I apologise if they took offence. My feedback, however, might suggest that a little more clarity is required and that when churches give out details of costs to a newspaper or include them in a journal published on the web, the figure quoted for the Organ restoration should be just that. My comments about the lack of a tendering process still stand, but I take your point about H & H putting in a very competitive quote. And for the record, when I had the opportunity to inspect the two final bids for the restoration of the Armley organ, H & H's was the better of the two. (My input was not required, but one of the members of the committee involved was interested to hear my views from a mechanical engineering and materials science angle. The five generations of organ building in my family was not considered a hindrance either). Harrison's knowledge of the history of the organ, their respect for the work of Binns and suggestions for repositioning the divisions was particularly good. The well known German firm's proposals were, in parts, quite odd. The work at Armley was pretty extensive though, a new frame was erected and scaffolding (Yorkshire scaffolding is very serious) was required to restore the vast casework. So I still think the two jobs bare some costing comparison, however I don't think the Schulze/Binns soundboards were replaced. As for your soundboards needing replacement because of low humidity, was this as a result of the type or amount of heating? Many historic organs I find have usually only started to fall apart in the relatively recent past when an efficient (hot air blowing) heating system was installed. With under floor heating the air temp. doesn't need to be much above 14°C for people to feel warm and at that temp. the relative humidity of the air in the building can be kept above 40% or at least in equilibrium with that outside, so humidity is not forced out of the building. Please take up this fact and inform as many as possible who have a valuable instrument in their buidling, if you aren't already doing so! Two more IBO questions: Is the position of president just for one year and is next year's elected by the board or by the whole membership? I imagine members of the forum would like to know as much as possible about the restoration details of the Redcliffe organ. We may have to wait until all the funds are there before H & H put anything on their web site though. Again, sorry if I ruffled a few feathers, but you'll all feel better in the end.

The Canynges Gazette 2005, the newsletter of a society set up to raise funds to support St Mary's Redcliffe (amongst other things perhaps), includes a short piece about the proposed complete restoration of the organ and quotes a figure of £750,000, which by now would have reached the figure quoted previously. It says that the reasons for this work were explained in detail in the previous year's Gazette. However, this copy was not found by Google. Perhaps some of the Bristol members could track down a copy, alternatively, as mentioned above, more up to date information should be available from the D of M: his contact details are given on the Church web site. Details of the restoration apart, it's the cost that concerns me. It's not just high, it's twice what it should cost, even from a world famous organ builder. You could build a new organ of the same size for £800,000! I may be touching on a delicate matter here, but is there a national body that check up on what Organ Builder's charge? Please don't tell me that the IBO board members sit round a table and come up with 'this year's figures' and have gentlemen's agreements as to who gets which job. I spend a lot of time supporting Organ Builders (mainly those based in the UK) and convincing churches to restore their organ or buy a new pipe organ when this is the best solution. Without exception the single most controversial subject I have to deal with is the cost. With such apparently large discrepancies between costs from the same OB for two comparable jobs (Armley), you can see why there is so much distrust or simply confusion amongst church committees. This subject may not be something that this forum feels comfortable discussing, but if anyone has any useful input as to how the IBO works or how things could be a little more transparent, please send me an email.

I agree with pcnd5584, £800,000 does sound a lot for a restoration. The Redcliffe organ ought not require more effort to restore than the Armley Schulze, which, according to one of the fund raising leaflets cost £328,000. I know Redcliffe is a few ranks bigger, but there's just too much difference between the two figures. Did anyone hear about the work being tendered to other builders (assuming H&H are to do the work)? Quite often newspaper articles dealing with organ related work get their figures mixed up. The sum might well include some roof repairs perhaps. At Armley at least £1,000,000 was spent on a complete restoration of the whole gigantic edifice. I await further details with interest, as will the Queen apparently; the article managed to mention HRH and the Royal Family twice. Perhaps this was to excite some of those American sponsors it mentioned.

And there we were trying to imagine Linda Lucardi playing the organ topless... Probably would have done more to promote Organs (I said promote, not provoke ) than Uncle Ralph with or without his shirt. There! Got it back on topic.

From the priory CD specs. I have, the Great reeds at Colston Hall are on 9", whereas Redcliffes are on 12" and the Colston Solo Trumpet and Tromba are on 15" the same as the Redcliffe Tuba. The acoustics of the Hall are not as good as those of St Mary Redcliffe as far as getting the most out of a reed pipe is concerned. Another point I find interesting about Colston (H & H 1956) is that the mixtures nearly all contain a 17th, partly the reason why this organ has such a refreshing sound (others may use other adjectives). I realise that H & H often used a 17th in what they called their 'Harmonics' during the first half of the 20th century, but usually all their stops called 'Mixture' were made up of unison and fifth sounding ranks only. None of the Colston stops bear the name 'Harmonics', but I'm willing to accept that the Priory booklet may have a few misprints. However, the usual 'Harmonics' tends to have a flattened 21st as well as a 17th: a tuner's nightmare I would have thought! There were two consultants according to the NPOR listing: H.K. Andrews and W.K. Stanton. Most probably at least one of these gentlemen was, or had been, the organist and had fond memories of the tierce mixtures from the pre war-organ by Henry Willis & Sons. Just to add confusion to the plot, in his 1936 tonal scheme at Colston, Willis (III?) called a three rank pedal mixture 'Harmonics'. And I thought this was just a H & H characteristic. Cuthbert Harrison may have agreed with the two consultants on having the tierce mixtures, or may well have 'given in to pressure' whilst still recovering from his experience of working with Dr Downes. There is an interesting essay by Mark Venning in the BIOS Journal no. 23 which illustrates the 'Great Adventure' as Cuthbert called it, and is well worth reading (again). I'll quote my favourite bit, as it sheds a little more light on the two contrasting personalities and could act as a gentle warning to keen consultants, dopey or otherwise: In Cuthbert Harrison's reply to Ralph Downes of the 15th September 1952: "I do not know where to turn. I have your letters of September 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th, and your postcard of the 14th in front of me, and if I fail to answer anything to which you want a 'detailed' reply, I think you had better send me a questionnaire which I can answer in words of one syllable." Sorry to have drifted off topic slightly. Also, perhaps the subject of tierce mixtures should belong in the nuts and bolts section.

My friends at Fisk have asked me to put the record straight and are interested to know where you read this rumour. This is what they said in response: "This is not true. There was some final through tuning of mixtures and divisions that was accomplished just prior to the dedication. The majority of the voicing department was present for the dedicatory events throughout the month of December 2003. They were there only in the capacity of tourists and not working save for packing up equipment for return shipment to Massachusetts. The Executive Vice President and Tonal Director remained in Lausanne through Christmas to tidy up through tuning. The organ was complete tonally and mechanically by late November 2003 and accepted by the cathedral and organ society leadership at that time." Hope this clears up any doubt.

He may well have been 'incidentally German', however Barry, we're both wrong, he's Hungarian, born 1939 in Budapest. The US web site listed him and other possible Europeans (Wojciech Katamarz and René Uijlenhoet) along with many American organ composers and it was rash of me to have inferred they were all the same nationality. As far as answering the original post, a composer's nationality would, in my opinion, be of little importance.

Just over 415 inches actually, mustn't do down our American cousins, I doubt even our very own Henry Willis would have managed to keep the Ophicleides from shooting straight through the roof at that pressure. Perhaps, as this organ is close to the White House, certain stops are used as a defence mechanism to shoot down any incoming enemy Flachflöte.

When your Organ Builder tells you it's finished!

I would agree with the other posts about greatness usually being acquired with time, but have you heard the works of Guy Bovet of Switzerland? He has composed some 'great' pieces, but perhaps that's great in a slightly different sense to yours. Salamanca from Trois Préludes Hambourgeois seems to be gaining popularity. You might also take a look at the list of contemporary composers of organ music at last year's Festival hosted by Martin Stacey at St. Dominic's Priory and two other venues. Try this link. A web search produces: Peter Hurford, Ronald Henshaw, Robert Jordahl, Philip Goddard, Christopher Bowers-Broadbent and from Italy: Tiziano Bedetti, Leonello Capodaglio and Alberto Guerzoni, from The Netherlands: Toon (good name for a composer) Hagen, Bert Matter and Gerrit Wielenga, with the very young Danish composer and organist Frederick Magle and Sweden's Hans-Ola Ericsson. Canada comes up with Piotr Grella-Mozejko (originally from Poland), George Andrix, Reinhard von Berg, Siaw kin Lee and Charles Stolte. The USA seems to have, as we would expect, more than anywhere else, with Steve Everett, Ron Nagorcka, René Uijlenhoet, Robert Bates, Richard Felciano, Stephen Ingham, Zsigmund Szathmary, Richard Stewart and Wojciech Katamarz. Has anyone ever played or even heard the works of any of these? This forum recently quoted Simon Preston and Francis Jackson as having written some very good pieces too. So it looks as if the creative spirit is alive and well.