S_L
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Posts posted by S_L
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I seem to recall some years ago a celebrated cathedral organist and his sidekick arrived at a modest parish church to play the Widor for a wedding only to discover the church's instrument was one manual, no pedals. At which point he turned to aforesaid sidekick and said words to the effect of, "I'll play the manuals if you can do a duet with me playing the pedals on the manual".
I played the 'Widor' on a one manual and no pedals - with 2 trombonists playing the feet!! Interesting experience!
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I was thinking about Norwich, Salford and possibly Wrexham (which is the one I can't find on NPOR). And then to my list were added Sheffield and Plymouth.
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Actually I wasn't thinking of Sheffield, and it sounds like its real organ will be restored soon. So in addition to the "mystery" (although obvious to me, and I thought well-known) cathedrals above, there are two more.
There might be another one - and I can't find anything on NPOR about it. So that will make FIVE, including Sheffield, the one we can't/won't name and two others, one of those with a Hele instrument also present!
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".....................and then there is one other RC Cathedral with a pipeless instrument!".................said SL
indeed, and like the one which cannot be named, a pipe organ is still there too (a Hele, though unplayable)!
I was wondering about that one!
So, as Damian says - that makes four!
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That's a very helpful start - I meant to also mention that cuckoos could also include something masquerading as something else, in fact I've just thought of that Joseph Cooper album with hidden melodies, that sort of thing would go down well,I'd like the audience to do some work as well!
I'd forgotten about Joseph Cooper, a very fine musician - I used to play his variations on "Yes, we have no bananas" - in the style of Schumann!
Sorry - doesn't help!
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It's a very large building, Roman Catholic, and the pipe organ is in the South Transept - a very small two-manual with a limited specification and certainly not capable of leading a full congregation.
Yes - that's one of the places i was thinking of1
I played St. Marie's Cathedral organ years ago for a wedding. The console was almost underneath the pipework and you had hardly any idea of the amount of sound you were making. It was quite scary! But I thought I had read, somewhere,that it had had some work done on it recently and I thought it was used for the installation of Ralph Heskett CssR, the new Bishop of Hallam. If it hasn't been done then I can't see it being done in the future - enough said!!
............... and then there is one other RC Cathedral with a pipeless instrument!
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.......................................... and then, of course, there are Cathedrals of other Denominations!
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I can think of two RC Cathedrals which have pipeless instruments in them. In one case the old pipe organ has been removed completely. In the second case the Victorian instrument is still there and, I'm told, playable! I visited about three years ago and I seem to remember it was tucked away in a corner - looking at it I couldn't imagine it being suitable for the building it was in - which is, possibly, why there is a pipeless instrument in use!
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As mentioned above the only music of Browne's that exists is the contents of one box of surviving pieces held by the archive of Clare College, Cambridge, plus one other autograph manuscript held by the British Library.
In a letter to Edward Dent written either the day before or even the day of his death, in 1915, Denis Browne wrote."It’s all rubbish except Gratiana, (perhaps) Salathiel Pavey, & the Comic Spirit...Everything else except what I’ve mentioned must be destroyed." (King's College Archive Centre PP/EJD 4/61)
Robert Athol, the Edgar Bowring Archivist at Clare College, may be the person to contact.
Good luck in your search.
(Further digging has resulted in "some Latin Church music has been performed in Westminster Cathedral") - it might be worth an e-mail to Martin Baker or Jenny Forsyth, the Music Administrator there.
Clearly it wasn't all destroyed!
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Dupre - Crucifixion (this would need some learning, hence why I'm starting early!) - but I couldn't use it in a normal service
I'm interested to know why you couldn't use it in a normal service!
I expect all know this recording!
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I was also in Paris yesterday - and had lunch not too far away from St Eustache - I wish I had remembered!
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I would be interested to learn how they have managed to raise £2.5 million, apparently just for a new organ. I understand that Buckfast Tonic Wine sells well - but that well?
However, one thing which the former organ possessed in spades was a great variety of colourful, fairly quiet unison flue ranks, several of which were quite ethereally beautiful in that acoustic ambiance. The Echo Organ in particular would surely have been most useful in the accompaniment of plainsong. This instrument also possessed three contrasting undulating ranks.It sounds as if the emphasis for the tonal design of the new organ might well be biased in favour of repertoire. Perhaps one of the divisions in the Quire will be an Echo Organ, as before.
Some years ago I had a brief discussion about the organ with Fr Sebastian Wolff and made some comment which I cannot remember about the cost, probably something long the lines of, "it really needs a thorough restoration, but that would be expensive." Adopting a confidential tone, he said, "Oh, money's not a problem." Discussion of the abbey on the local grapevine regularly features the phrase "rolling in it". This may be just scurrilous rumour, of course
The logic is, surely, that if Buckfast are commissioning a large 100 stop organ there will be plenty of scope for the designer to to include, in the specification, a whole range of stops that can be suitable for playing a wide range of repertoire but also be suitable for accompany the liturgies of the Abbey including plainsong sung in choir.
As fr as the cost is concerned, I'm not sure that, on a public forum, we should be discussing where or how an institution has managed to raise funds for, what some may think is an extravagant or even unnecessary, project. The point is that they have the funds and, seemingly, are going to go ahead with an exciting new instrument. There will be, amongst the 'amateur, back of fag-packet' designers much discussion, I'm sure, about whether this type of mixture or that type of mixture or this stop or that stop should have been included and so on. That is for the future and, no doubt, when the specification is public we shall see an outpouring of verbiage on this topic.
But certainly, a comment made "in a confidential tone" should remain just that - confidential!
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If one of the consoles was movable, then it would have to emulate the later models of Dalek to levitate into the Choir and over its step. Has this been solved in other places, with a mechanical solution ?
I apologise but I just can't resist it - the 'Punch' cartoon comes to mind and, if it raises a smile, on one of the dullest first days of spring I have seen for a long time, then it's worth it!!
It's a good job they didn't have a 'mechanical solution'!!!
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Well. it's been a scandal for decades ....all other comments have been redacted because of the increasing restrictions on free speech in our free and fair country
???? - Am I missing something - or just being thick?
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Why not contact Ben Mooiman - who is playing on that recording.
He teaches at the Conservatoire in The Hague and is Organist of the Nieuwe Badkapel.
The church address is:
Nieuwe Parklaan 90
2587BV Den HaagThe Conservatoire address is:
Koninklijk Conservatorium
Juliana van Stolberglaan 1
2595 CA Den Haag
Hope that helps more than my previous suggestion.
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Slightly unusual use of "public domain", SL :-)
Yes, true - and apologies for that!!
And, as I said, I have no knowledge of UK law (I don't live there!) - and I would check, very carefully, before I did perform from a manuscript I described - but there are, clearly, plenty of people on here who can, and will, give you better advice than I!
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I think, if I had drawn blanks everywhere and only wanted a copy of this piece for my own use and didn't intend to use it in recital, I would be tempted to copy it onto Sibelius from the link above! It wouldn't take long, a couple of hours, quite enjoyable, work I would say!
And if I did intend to use it in Recital I would put a footnote in the programme notes as to where I had obtained the manuscript of the music.
I'm not sure about the legalities of this and, I'm certain, others will shoot me down for it but, if after extensive search, a manuscript is not available, it seems to me, at any rate, that the only way this music will appear in the public domain is the course of action described above. Otherwise it disappears into the 'sands of time'!!
(SL ducks and akes cover - as the shots start to fire!!!)
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I note (somewhat wryly) that the NPOR has already updated the entry for this instrument with a short note about yesterday's fire. If they can do that so promptly....
(Tony, I know that you are all volunteers, but some of us have submitted updates, corrections and new surveys years ago, and these have yet to appear. As has any reply to my offer to be trained in order to assist in the inputting of data on to NPOR surveys....)
I've also submitted data, in one case, over two years ago - and it still hasn't appeared!
I also offered to be trained in order to assist updating data for the NPOR! At first they seemed interested and then the person, I was corresponding with, moved on and I had an e-mail that left me thinking that I wasn't suitable!
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Pershore Abbey is notorious in the ringing fraternity as the hairiest ringing room in Christendom. In order to give some view of the vaulted ceiling of the crossing, Gilbert Scott (I think) removed the ringing floor and replaced it with a platform supported on a pair of crossbeams and approached by a walkway along one of said beams. The ringing space itself is surrounded with a barrier and wire netting up to a fair height, so there's no chance of falling out, even if something goes wrong, but ringing there is still not an experience for the faint-hearted. The only other really scary ring I know is the RC church of St. Augustine and St. John in Dublin, which is approached by a long open-work spiral staircase which goes through the middle of the organ on the west gallery. I nearly lost my nerve half-way up, but the sight of one of my colleagues standing in the nave smirking was enough to shame me into getting to the top.
My children, all of whom are peal-ringers, know it as 'the cage' and, indeed, I'm told that it is scary! They do say that ringing at Imperial in London is also scary - because you can look out over South Kensington and realise that the tower is moving, and not just slightly either, with the movement of the bells. Gloucester Cathedral is supposed to be a bit hairy too - I think my second son told me that you have to go outside along the roof before you get to the bell tower - but I may be wrong!
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Much underrated music - in my opinion!
I have Paul Derrett's recording of both of Guy Weitz's Organ Symphonies - from Hereford Cathedral - as well as an assortment of other smaller works by Weitz.. The music is a joy to listen to!
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Nick Gale's death will leave a void in the UK that will be difficult to fill. His total enthusiasm for promoting the good singing of Plainsong will be very sadly missed.
Requiem aeternam dona eis Domine.
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I agree pcnd, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a trend to remove some of the 'brighter' aspects of the fluework from earlier works with this firm. I also agree that this is regrettable.
With respect to King's though, the push to make the alterations in 1992 came more from the Director of Music, rather than Harrison and Harrison. A deliberate policy was adopted to remove or reduce the effects of the brighter upper work introduced in 1968, in an attempt to return to the status quo prevailing pre-1968. This involved not only alterations to the aforementioned mixtures, but a review of the entire flue work on the Great. I think this approach was quite successful in what it intended to do, although I would re-iterate I do not like it.
I notice that you haven't cared to tell us what "slush-bucketism".is - nor commented on what you mean by the 'stubborn residence' of the Director of Music!
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Slightly off the subject - for which I apologise!
I don't go up to Paris very often but, when I do, I usually attend Mass at St. Eustache. I was there a few months ago. There seemed to be quite a few people in the organ loft and the improvisation before Mass began was completely amazing - it was also, I think, at one point, the loudest noise I have ever heard - totally deafening! (A most 'unorganistic' thing to say but I really thought the instrument was going to jump off the back wall!). The voluntary after Mass I didn't recognise but, again, it was very loud, extremely virtuosic ('showy'), and based on very fast, repeated notes with continuous changes of manual and registration. The playing of the orgue du choeur at Mass was excellent and the antiphony between the two organs in Credo III and the Gloria Missa VIII was well timed - clearly both players knew the building and the instruments extremely well!
As an aside, I often sit, as a member of the congregation, in one or other French Cathedral (I have four cathedrals within an hour's drive from my home). All of these 'employ' a Titulaire but the quality of improvisation and general playing - (I heard some dismal Buxtehude a fortnight ago!)) varies considerably and doesn't come anywhere near what one hears in quite a number of the Paris churches on a Sunday morning - or, indeed, at any time! The quality of playing of the Orgue du choeur also varies - and, sometimes, it is really dismal!
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So it's 'horses for courses' and of course it's all down to contemporary 'tastes' and individual preferences. I wouldn't think though the overall Harrison 'integrity' will change much. What I do fear is that the Cleobury trend for Romantic "slush-bucketism" will advance further, and this would be regrettable. But given the stubborn residence of the present Director of Music of King's, it's probably more than likely than unlikely.I wondered why the OP had posted that title and have, so far, refrained from comment.
But I'd like to know what 'slush-bucketism' is too - and I'd, also, like to know what you mean by 'stubborn residence' - and will await your reply before making any further comment!
SL (late of Kings College, Cambridge)
Buckfast Abbey
in The Organ
Posted
I always find it interesting, and I know that I am going to be 'shot down' for this comment, that the 'amateur' organ builders, often, sometimes, maybe, or, possibly not, very fine players, have so much to say when a specification of a new or rebuilt instrument is released! I suppose that is part of the nature of the organist make-up! I knew an organist when I was an Undergraduate at Cambridge who spent his days designing what he considered to be the smallest 2 manual and pedal instrument it was possible to think of that would, satisfactorily play whatever he wanted it to (he considered organ music died, by the way, in 1750!). It was a complete waste of his time, his degree suffered and he has, since, disappeared into obscurity, presumably still following his dream!
I looked at the specification and wondered why they might want a drum, some bagpipes and a nightingale (5 pipes immersed!). I also wondered how close to the Abbot's stall the Abbatial Trumpet was going to be and, at one point, felt slightly sorry for the Abbot! But then I thought that the instrument, I suppose, is going to cost upwards of a million pounds, (VH. 'fastbuck' Abbey is a bit of a cheap jibe, I thought!), The people on the ground, it isn't the work or dream of one person, which will include people who work and worship in the place as well as a highly competent consultant, know what they want the instrument to do, they have a vision. Who am I to comment? They know the building and how it behaves and they know the kind of sound they want the instrument to make. They're not going to be pressured into spending money unwisely and will have to, at some point, justify their spending and the cost of the instrument. Presumably, there is a reason behind no 32' flue, a cornet de bagpipes or whatever and who are we, on the back of our 'fag-packets' to criticise or be-little, or even to comment, on their expertise and vision.
We might have done it differently - but the point is, we aren't doing it - they are!
And, of course, we all look forward, in 2017, to hearing the final result - and then some will be saying "I told you so!!" - for whatever reason!