Phoneuma

It would be very much a 'last resort' to score this out (and an hour or so would be about right SL, I'm pretty nifty with the thing now). I have a few tenuous leads left here and there (e.g. the original youtube 'poster' who would seem to have a proper score, at least it looks like it and not some Sibelius clone). Colin's reply does throw up something of which I was not aware and is a new one. I've also left it with my daughter to ponder - she is a trainee copyright / trademark attorney in Leeds, a useful source of some of the pitfalls that are the minefield of this business. I have already talked with her about it and she has gone away to do some digging. I do think the law is pretty cut and dried (70 year rule etc). but what does one do in these circumstances when all else has been exhausted. This same thing cropped up with that British Legion march which I got around by buying someone else's arrangement, even though I wasn't entirely convinced that he had sought permission himself to arrange it (the arranger even went so far as to include some note about seeking permission from him for performance rights which is a little curious in the circumstances). This Legion march is also untraceable as a publication. 'Do PRS get involved with'.... - that one is also a pertinent point to ponder. Apart from the usual 'returns' that are sent from my church following organ recitals that's as far as I have ever gone with this. The church is particularly scrupulous about these returns by the way, all credit to them.

Thanks for the reminder about Arnside, that's on my to-do list next time I visit Morecambe (someone has to and one does feel the place is trying its best these days!). My old parish priest has just retired to Keswick so that may well be another opportunity to go to Ambleside (and I hear that Crosthwaite is also worth a visit). And, of course, I must get myself an hour at Lancaster Town Hall some time.

A quick update - Wolsey's recommendation is correct but their website then comes up with this rather final point. Doesn't look encouraging...... Toccata: per organo Publisher: Herman Muziekuitgeverij Zengerink Delivery time: Publisher extinguished (sic)

Thanks for the pointers. It's as far as I got myself and I'm not sure if Wolsey's suggestion is still the correct one (this cropped up elsewhere on another musical forum and the unfortunate buyer ended up with Toccata II which is widely available and the price on that german website seems to match my suspicion). The info from RAC is also useful but leads nowhere in particular. I've plenty of time to faff about a bit more now and may well end up doing a re-score from youtube, which wouldn't take that long anyway. Grateful thanks for your suggestions.

I wonder if any of you learned folks can point me in the direction of the publisher for this piece.? I've spent an hour or so faffing about on the tinterweb but to no avail (plenty of Toccata II but not I). Just in case (and there does seem to be a fair amount of confusion about these two Toccatas) here's the youtube link for the correct one (which even has one of those scrolling scores, I suppose I could screenshot that and then laboriously transfer it but I'd rather have the real deal if possible). The score on Youtube also has no. 24 before the Toccata title - I wonder what the other 23 pieces are like then?! It seems to have been trawled over before on another forum but it that just fizzles out into uncertainty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYArxHyPY28 Regards and hoping for a lead.

Apologies - it goes blue automatically - I said I was a novice.........duh

This is a fascinating thread. Although I have never had the honour of playing a real Hope-Jones I did have the chance to play one of his acolytes' instruments at Elvaston Church, near Derby many, many years ago. It was one of Eustace Ingram's instruments and it totally perplexed me when I was shown the console. Even for a young lad I couldn't fathom why there wasn't anything above 4' pitch - until I realised that the swell had the extra octave of pipes to 'complete' the chorus. My host that night left me in the church to my own devices and it was very spooky, surrounded by many tombs and monuments. Interestingly, the contributor to the NPOR entry comments that it had been unplayable - it was really but I managed something out of it quite a few years before the NPOR survey. I don't think I quite appreciated the glorious Bodley cases into which this thing was stuffed! It is still all there apparently but the church isn't used frequently and the usual neglect has ensued. Many thanks to Colin for his technical information, even as an engineering novice I find the description and explanation of the mechanics clear and informative, interesting technical info. indeed. JUst in case - Colin, I never did have the chance to try St Pauls' or St Modwen's all those years ago despite it being on the doorstep - wish I had! I think I was too pre-occupied by quasi-baroque tricks at that time, or the Compton leviathan at Derby Cathedral (and that is a clever box of tricks). I do hope they make something of Battersea, the casework is / was very attractive and unusual. Elvaston Church below (don't know how to make it blue......) http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N05392

This is indeed a very beautiful and poignant little piece, dating from 1932 and based upon the Retreat call, renamed Sunset as Colin rightly points out. A couple of years back I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to find this music, to no avail (the Royal Marines forum even proved fruitless as they said that the army bands all have their own copies and it was never officially published). However (!) - I sat down and transcribed it as best I could from a BBC broadcast as I wanted it for our school band for a very special occasion; the presentation of a Battle of Britain Memorial Plaque to an old boy who was still alive and kicking very well indeed. He was also, to my great delight, in the same squadron as my uncle (219 squadron, Bristol Blenheims, their motto was 'From Dusk to Dawn'). I have just dug this band arrangement out as I am sure Colin might find this of use and interest (it is reduced for Organ by the way). If anyone else would like one then please send a pm. Simon Gregory

I found a rather good transcription of the first Wind Band Suite by Holst on imslp, composed in 1909 and first performed in 1922 so it kind of covers that era. The first movement, Chaconne, does work well. More in the marching vein but none the worse for that and if you have uniformed organisations then that sort of thing does strike a chord. The other two movements are also good. I know I mentioned it before but if anyone still wants a transcription of the Royal British Legion March then please pm me for a free and legitimate copy.

I suppose this ought to go under recitals but I thought it would catch more eyes if it were listed here. I don't have much information but Philip Tordoff is giving a recital this coming Saturday, November 1st at 12.30pm. It isn't listed on organrecitals.com either. I have no other information than this and it was gleaned from a website and given to me by a colleague. Worth a visit by all accounts, it will be my own first experience and the photos alone on a previous post whet one's appetite. The organist, Kenneth Senior, is very enthusiastic about the instrument and it is in pretty good working order by all accounts.

Indeed it is! Farnam apparently used it to 'test' any new organ he hadn't played and it does have you flying all around the thing, the only piece I've ever memorised, perhaps it is a bit of an extreme example..

Anyone mentioned the Compton sustainers yet? Covered in the massively informative Compton thread but worth a mention. They do have their uses.

I'm interested to see that you have an aching back handsoff - I thought it was just me. I'm sure that there is some posture problem at times but the ache nearly always goes after a couple of minutes and a quick stretch and walk around although I appreciate that it can't be done during the service! I do get off the bench during the sermon though and sit in a normal chair which offers some relief. No problems with the piano so it must be connected to the 'suspended animation' that we find ourselves in on the bench (ours isn't adjustable in height which might also be an issue). I have been looking into Alexander technique but I need to do lots more homework with that, it produces some pretty miraculous results with violinists in particular. There is plenty of information on various websites about the Alexander method - I don't think you have to go the whole hog with it but it offers some useful ideas. If it is a new instrument then I always play through this http://imslp.org/wiki/Toccata_on_'O_filii_et_fili%C3%A6'_(Farnam,_Lynnwood) - I learnt it years ago and find it really useful to physically find your way around the instrument (it doesn't have to be blasted out, couple of flutes do the same job. I do appreciate from the initial post that this might not be approachable for those starting on the instrument.

'Surely it's pretty much a standard design for a large baroque-era console?' - Yep - I'd go along with that, I get a free trip (school exchange in reality) to Bavaria every other year and I end up with this wonderful organ to play with as long as I like, not a piston in sight. I could play for hours with just a couple of flutes washing around the building. http://www.metzler-orgelbau.ch/htm/organs/braunau.htm I have a photo of the console which is very similar (although smaller) than the Gothenburg organ above but have no idea how to attach it to this post....duh. Same short pedals but no split keys (although there are a number of organs down there which have the Bohemian short octaves which take a bit of getting used to).

Players are even welcome to have a free play every lunchtime! (Ashton Hall) Dash the blessed thing - someone has beat me to it! Next time I shall ring and book with more notice - a very amenable and helpful lady called Sue Little (on the website mentioned above) will arrange for an hours playing but be quick and more organised than I was. You get the Lancs. CC switchboard first when you call so ask to be put through to Sue. Gift aid envelope are left on the console for a donation to what seems like a very worthy cause. Splendid tip from Contrabombarde,

Thanks indeed for these suggestion - I must time it better for a Wednesday next time as our hosts are Waring and Gillow sleuths who seem to know every old factory building built by or for them in Lancaster, which looks to be the best bet anyway with some grotty weather scheming to keep us indoors. I'll try to steer past Arnside just in case and take the camera, you never know. The LTOT I ought to do on my own anyway, I'd certainly like to see the Burton - on - Trent bits and pieces at some time. P

To cut a long story short myself and the good lady are having a trip to see friends in Morecambe next week and they always try to indulge us with an architectural or musical place of interest and I notice that St James Arnside appears to have some sort of Hope -Jones 'hybrid' for want of a better word. NPOR is a little unclear and lists Laycock and Bannister but with a passing ref. to Brindley and Foster stops knobs on an earlier survey and a more recent rebuild by Michael Fletcher. Ambleside is a little too far but on a future hit-list (same goes for Crosthwaite which is also worthy of a visit so I'm told). Looks interesting - has anyone ever seen / heard or played it and it is worth a visit and some prior arrangements on my part? If not any other ideas would be welcome. We have an 'Austin and Paley' architectural tour as reserve as they would seem to be well worth a look on account of their sterling work on non-conformist and other church buildings in that area (Lancaster RC Cathedral being a prime example - any contacts there would also be of interest). Anywhere within an hour's drive or so from Morecambe would be manageable. A bit short notice as we go Tuesday but any suggestions would be of interest and welcomed. Thanks just in case.

'There is no finer performance of the Elgar First Sonata than Kynaston's at Ingolstadt (Mitra OSM 16157), on vinyl from 1977.' Now you do have me thinking - I'd completely forgotten about this recording (partly because I don't think they have never issued those Mitra vinyls on CD, do correct me if wrong - I have the Vierne 6 from that series and it is a fantastic sound, and performance of course). And thanks for the history behind Phoneuma, often wondered about it. S

'If you don’t like his music, to begin with, then it’s a bit of a no-hoper. You (Phoneuma) don't mention this.' Very fair point indeed - some of it I couldn't do without (Dream of Gerontius, for instance) and I will most certainly read through Colin's article which might well persuade me to give it another chance (and the recording referred to by AJJ). I do find I have to mentally put aside the Victorian / Edwardian culture (for want of a better word that doesn't come to mind just now) and, that done, yes, I do enjoy quite a fair bit of his other music. Do keep the replies coming, but you are beginning to, perhaps, make me listen afresh, in which case thanks to all for your powers of persuasion! Simon Gregory (i'll own up to a name!).

Greetings to all and here’s something to mull over which has interested me for many years. It is certainly not meant to be the basis for an argument, rather a discussion and to give me some idea of where my own thoughts lie in the general scheme of things so here goes anyway. Over many years I have had frequent ‘differences of opinion’ with many others regarding the Elgar Organ Sonata. I loathe the thing and consider it a crushing bore from beginning to end and have never seen the point of learning it as a piece of organ music. Is it one of those pieces that is played simply because it is by a famous composer (rather than some of our lesser-known organist composers, some of whose work is infinitely better written for the instrument but let’s leave that aside for now). Yes, I have had the usual rubbish argument that ‘so-and-so gives an account that is very persuasive and brings the piece to life etc’ , and endless recommendations including the Sumsion which is lauded on the grounds that he knew Elgar, as if that really matters anyway. This latter argument is something of dead end quite honestly (based upon the same grounds that ‘so-and-so can make a dreadful instrument sound miraculously good, regardless of the obvious fact that said instrument is a dud by anyone’s standard). In fact, it was probably Sumsion that I heard first on GCOS, those grooves were only ever run through once on the LP and I haven’t even played the GCOS CD on the same grounds. I’ll probably end up being in a minority here (and reported to the Citizenship Czar to boot)but I really can’t see what the fuss about this dreary old drivel is (same applies to the Britten P and F, another one for the bonfire, but shall we stick to Elgar?). Phoneuma

Indeed it was - I think Francis also composed and had recorded a special fanfare for the new Bombarde (somewhere on Amphion, was it called Processional or something like that?) ).I also wanted to correct my own glaring error in my previous post. Apologies to Vox - the Whitlock piece I was referring to with ';thumbing down' is the Sortie from the second set, still some good Tuba moments in this piece anyway. And, to finish my 'error corrections' it was Roger Fiske who made the comment about the Tuba / Gavotte business in the notes to the GCOS set as follows - 'a tremendously loud (roughly fffff) pseudo-gavotte. It manages to be extremely rousing and a bit of a giggle at one and the same time. You really can't take this stop quite seriously' (August Gramophone 1964). I'd dearly loved to have seen the recording engineers scatter away when it first hit the ends of the vu meters, it must have been quite a shock.

Ooh - thanks for that reminder, I've just ordered the Four Pieces on that recommendation (I used to have them but must have left them in someone else's organ loft somewhere). I remember the Angelus well, delightful little pieces. Exultemus is good, first piece I played where you had to thumb down which I found easier than it looked (although this piece does have a couple of its own tricky corners). Tuba Tune is on imslp now I noticed (which I find so handy to print off 'working copies' when learning music, saves having to ruin precious originals). Thanks for the reminder. P

Didn't we all listen in wonder when we first heard THAT tuba?! The passage of time doesn't make the impact any less and I still wear out my old LP now and then (I have two spare Oxfam copies for back-up, just in case, as well as the GCOS set). Yes - it sounds like an overblown Clarinet at times but what a noise to an 11 year-old, I really couldn't believe anything could obliterate full organ. Philip is quite right, it is a mighty handful and I only got there by memorising the patterns. over a fair amount of time it has to be said. Simon Johnson's performance on DVD is superb, especially when he makes the point about that wonderful chord on the last page, watching him play certainly gave me some tips for managing the thing. En passant - the Whitlock Toccata from Plymouth Suite was pressed into action 4 weeks ago when Le Tour passed through God's own country as I found that I could fit La Marsellaise to the Tuba solos that pepper the piece - works well with a bit of 'editing' here and there! The congregation got it instantly. One last point about the Cocker - give it to your A Level set when you are next away and ask them to plot every modulation, it will keep them busy for an hour or so and it contains just about every harmonic and melodic device that's specified in the current syllabus. See which of them get G# minor (assuming I'm correct!). Someone somewhere once dubbed it as something of a overdone Gavotte - that's fine by me, I played many worse Gavottes.

If it is of any use to anyone I have a copy of an organ arrangement of the Royal British Legion March (legitimately purchased as pdf and I can download it as many times as I wish by the way!).. We have an annual Remembrance service at school and I use it at the end (alternating with RAF March Past and any other Marches I can lay my hands on). It's the one they use at Remembrance Services nationally and is a cracking March (albeit a little Monty Python in places). Not difficult and lends itself to judicious editing / cuts as needs be. Get on side with your local Legion lads and lasses, they would be very pleased if you offered this I'm sure. We get the Legion in at Remembrance as the lads at school love to see uniforms, flags and medals (so do I) and it all lends a certain dignity and a little bit of military pomp (in the best sense of that word). Do PM if you'd like a copy (pdf).