Dafydd y Garreg Wen
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Posts posted by Dafydd y Garreg Wen
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5 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:
Beautiful singing at Westminster Hall on Wednesday. I loved James O'Donnell's chant for Psalm 139 which I believe was based on what we used to call the Kiev Melody. I must listen to it again. And how apt were the words of the Bairstow. And, dare I say, how lovely to hear BCP and KJV words for the prayers and lesson.
I was amused that a writer in the Times praised the beauty of the words of the psalm, but attributed them to the Authorised Version. The writer didn’t realise that for the 1662 book, whilst biblical texts in general were altered to the A.V. (being the most recent translation), the option of updating the psalms was rejected, specifically on aesthetic grounds, and the old Coverdale (more or less) psalter was retained because it was better for singing … which is more or less the point you were making.
Nothing changes, does it?
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10 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
I have been informed by a Hope-Jones historian that the correct position is with the curve at the rear, otherwise you can't hook your heels over the rail under the seat when not pedalling.
Thank you. I must tell the people at Llanrhaeadr when I next go there.
The well-known photograph of Hope-Jones playing from outside S. John’s Birkenhead features one of these benches but the detail isn’t clear enough to answer the question. His coat tails almost look as if they are displaced by the projecting part, but they could just have fallen that way. Equally, had his coat been a few inches shorter the relevant part of the bench would have been visible!
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1 hour ago, John Furse said:
And an 'interesting' bench, too. Is its height adjustable ?
Alas, no.
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2 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
To answer that I guess one needs to have played them. Unfortunately that's been next to impossible for a very long time.
[….]
There's an even smaller one (1899) at Llanrhaeadr in near to original condition, but even this one had to have its pedal Diaphone! See:
As one who has played this instrument liturgically from time to I can say that it is much more useful than most small, village church organs. Once you discard any preconceived ideas about octave couplers not being quite the thing, and embrace them as an integral part of the instrument as its designer intended it, you can do a lot with it. You can certainly play (some) Bach on it, effectively, if not exactly authentically.
The Viol d'Orchestre is an extraordinarily keen rank. Hearing it you would almost think it a reed stop, and it does duty quite nicely for the soft solo reed that the instrument lacks.
The Flute D'Amour is very chiffy. Not at all what one would expect. A neo-baroque enthusiast from the sixties and seventies would feel very at home with it.
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“Nason flutes” were not unknown on English organs once upon a time:
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1 hour ago, sbarber49 said:
Words and melody editions to be released on 30th April 2023
Are you sure that’s 2023 not 2024 (or even 2025)?
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5 hours ago, sbarber49 said:
So Amazon say - I'm sure they're more up to date!
Very probably. But quite remarkable (if, alas, unsurprising in this case) for the date to have slipped yet again in the few weeks since the June announcement was posted.
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15 hours ago, sbarber49 said:
Well, the latest date for publication is the end of January 2023. What on earth is happening.
The June update said November 2022. Has this date now shifted yet again?
The explanation given there for the extraordinary delay is:
QuoteIt is fair to say that no-one involved in its preparation fully anticipated the complexity of the task, or the extent to which events in life would cause disruption and delay. Having a fairly large editorial committee that even before the pandemic was working across continents while continuing their other demanding work responsibilities has also been challenging. Much of the complex editorial work has had to be done remotely.
Make of this what you will ….
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Thank you. A heartening tale.
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24 minutes ago, Colin Pykett said:
My version was edited by William C Carl, and is the same as the Marsden Thomas version mentioned above in that it suggests crotchet = 60 with the melody carried by crotchets, not quavers.
How very confusing.
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Fascinating. Thank you.
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It’s not as easy as it used to be, but there are still ways of getting free access to most newspaper sites if all you want is an occasional article.
Church Times obit here:
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2022/27-may3-june/gazette/obituaries/obituary-simon-preston
“transformed the medieval cathedral choir” made me smile. Gives the impression that the members had been there since the Middle Ages. Perhaps they had ….
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5 hours ago, Andrew Butler said:
Paywall sadly
But one that is easily circumvented.
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6 hours ago, DaveHarries said:
When doing notices on Sunday 03rd April the Very Rev. Stephen Lake, outgoing Dean of Gloucester (I should call him the Rt. Rev. Stephen Lake, Bishop of Salisbury: he had received his legal title as such on Friday 01st April
Hmmm. That’s a bit of a stretch. He seems to have been elected by the Salisbury chapter on 2nd March. On 1st April that election was confirmed by the Metropolitan (Archbishop of Canterbury), which does have certain legal implications, but there is some way to go yet, for he will not be a bishop until his consecration (“episcopal ordination” if you prefer the new terminology) on 25th April.
(In the best tradition of this forum for digression ….)
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Most of the village churches round here have had their benches cut down, sometimes drastically, so for many players it’s a struggle to lift their feet sufficiently high to make playing the pedals feasible. I go round with a set of adjustable blocks I made to cope with these benches which are all low but of varying heights.
The most inconvenient instrument I know in the area, however, has a bench of reasonable height for me, but it’s fixed a long way back from the keys. I can’t imagine anyone other than a gorilla finding it comfortable to play.
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I see that the encores include a piece by Madeleine Dring - presumably the arrangement her of Jamaican Rumba which Thomas Trotter plays sometimes.
I’ve tried playing the piano and oboe version of her delightful Danza Gaya on the organ, but found it jolly tricky.
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For what it’s worth, I’d agree that Wesley was not a genius, but he did have a touch of genius. He was flawed as both man and musician/composer, but that is part of what makes him interesting. There is quirkiness about his compositions and his opinions that is intriguing - which is perhaps why this thread began in the first place, and also why it’s continued for so long ….
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The earlier books (Routley’s also) are valuable, but Peter Horton’s Samuel Sebastian Wesley: A Life is much more comprehensive and more analytical. He is particularly illuminating on Wesley’s pre-Hereford career as a secular musician, and how his early experiences in the theatre influenced his church music (Gattens had earlier looked at this angle). Wesley’s early church compositions are more innovative than people realise. Later his style became more conservative as a result of studying (as we might put it) “early music” - but in that sort of study he was an innovator too (just of a different kind).
As well as examining Wesley’s attested secular music, Horton convincingly argues that a single movement “symphony” in C minor attributed on its manuscript to Samuel Wesley is in fact the lost symphony in that key by Samuel Sebastian that he included in one of his Three Choirs Festivals.
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On 06/03/2022 at 18:57, Colin Pykett said:
The sustained tones of the organ tend to emphasise the properties, both good and not so good, of all temperaments simply because the ear has more time to dwell on them, except perhaps for music taken at the quickest pace. The beats between the notes of impurely-tuned intervals are largely responsible for whether keys are deemed 'good' or otherwise. The more out of tune an interval gets, the faster and more noticeable the beats become until they eventually end up being intolerable, as with Wolf intervals. Conversely, if the intervals are tuned pure (no beats) that, too, is highly noticeable on the organ compared with the transient tones of the piano, clavichord or harpsichord. So differences between temperaments are aurally far more obvious on the organ than on other keyboard instruments. There is also another effect for the most out of tune intervals, which is that the absolute frequencies of the notes start to deviate noticeably from what a musically educated ear expects to hear - the individual notes sound 'out of tune' in fact! This effect is also most noticeable on the organ because the ear has more time to analyse what is going on before the notes cease to sound.
This is why it is a mistake (though a common one) to assume that a temperament which might work well on the harpsichord, say, will also work well on the organ (or other keyboard instruments for that matter). Temperament is not a one-size-fits-all subject.
Yet another factor is that the effect of temperaments varies with the registration one uses. This is because the strengths of the beats depend on how many harmonics are available to the ear - flutes have few harmonics whereas strings and reeds have far more. So if beats are strong (as with reeds and strings), they can sound more objectionable than if they are weak (as with flutes). This means that a temperament which sounds intolerable with reeds and strings, or even principals, can nevertheless sound quite docile with flutes.
Listen to this file, which is exactly the same as the one above in that it consists of the tune 'Charity' played first in ET then in meantone. This time, however, it is played on a Stopped Diapason (very few harmonics) rather than an Open Diapason (considerably more harmonics). In this case even the final chord in A flat sounds tolerable because there are not enough harmonics to generate strong beats. So the Wolf has now been tamed!
www.colinpykett.org.uk/StopDiap-ET-4thComma.mp3
This is another example of why temperament is not a one-size-fits-all subject, because no other keyboard instrument has the range of tone colours that the organ enjoys, so there is no comparable effect possible on other instruments.
Thank you, Colin, for this very full exposition. I was thinking something like that might be the case, but on the basis of much less knowledge and minimal expertise. It’s very valuable to have a full analysis of the various factors involved.
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‘Tis indeed a great mystery. If Gladstone, a contemporary and pupil, could not understand it, what chance have we?
A point that intrigued me in the three letters kindly made available by Paul H. was Wesley’s emphasis that it was the organ he was concerned about, the implication being that equal temperament might (perhaps) be acceptable for the piano.
Was that merely a rhetorical concession, or did he genuinely feel that there was something about the organ that made equal temperament the more objectionable?
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Thank you for the interesting Stove article.
On a pedantic note, this bit is not quite right: “It’s sadly typical of Wesley that unlike almost every other church musician of consequence in Victorian Britain, he never had the smallest chance of obtaining a knighthood (although his widow did obtain a pension, by royal command).”
As discussed recently in another thread, Wesley was offered a choice of either a knighthood or a civil list pension and opted for the money, but didn’t live to enjoy it for very long. Exceptionally his widow was allowed to continue to receive the pension.
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Thank you likewise, Paul, for tracking down these letters and making them available. Highly illuminating.
4 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:I suppose it might be simply that one's ears become more tolerant of what one has grown up with. To him it seems that Wolf intervals were part and parcel of musical life, whereas they hit us harder when we come across them today. ET is the reverse - his ear rebelled against it because he wasn't used to it, whereas we are habituated to it from childhood.
This is very close to what Wesley says in his second letter (cf. my final (“less plausible”!) suggestion):
What, I ask, is the use of heaping together a lot of out-of-tune passages, as though we were not already well aware of the defects of organ tuning? Who ignores the terrible quality of the wolf. By accepting the wolf we get a great deal in very excellent tune, and we do not wholly destroy the good qualities of our organs as to tone and voicing. By equal temperament, we get everything of the kind so tempered with that the organ almost ceases to be a source of any pleasure. We get nothing good tune and the sensible ear has rest.
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4 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
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A question that has long puzzled me.
Wesley was nothing if not inconsistent, so that may be part of an explanation.
Your “cop-out” point is very valid, however. If we had truly accurate knowledge perhaps it would be less puzzling.
Another possibility is that Wesley may well have disliked equal temperament, but since it was becoming more common nevertheless wrote for it. Wouldn’t be the first person simultaneously to object to, yet in his practice accept, an innovation.
Less plausibly, perhaps he found the horrid sounds in meantone of those compositions you allude to somehow (in his own eccentric way) more tolerable than the way everything is slightly off in equal temperament.
Memorial Service for HM the Queen in St Paul’s Cathedral
in General discussion
Posted
Hear! Hear! (Played it myself last Sunday.)