Cantoris
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Posts posted by Cantoris
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On 11/11/2020 at 12:22, Cantoris said:
Well, for all the "if, but, why, wherefore, will it, wont it.......etc etc" survive, (or not) discussion of weeks/months ago, the Mander Forum still gets very little attention, or additional material since it was "rescued." Maybe even less. I think we are going to have to do a lot better than thus far for it to remain viable and informative to members and non-members alike. With "Lockdown" etc. there is little excuse for not getting far more responses and new material now.
Come on lets get to it! Nothing new? Then troll back through the archives as there is a massive amount of good material still to be expanded or updated. And all for our pleasure and education too! PLUS the forums permanent survival - nothing guaranteed these present days/years.
Get on with it or lose it
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10 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:
And as a bit of inspiration - (to us all, maybe?) - have a watch at this very competent sixth former, Miriam Reveley, playing a recital on a Viscount... 'broadcast' yesterday. Here it is. And very well done to Miriam!
Yes, absolutely "well done Miriam." Indeed an inspiration.
However from the first millisecond of putting down the first chord just so electronic. Again get what you pay for in that price range class of instrument. Attend full recital on that? no thankyou go home or the pub early.
But here we have in so many instances young peoples first experience of the classical "pipe organ." So I guess good on it of course.
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Well, for all the "if, but, why, wherefore, will it, wont it.......etc etc" survive, (or not) discussion of weeks/months ago, the Mander Forum still gets very little attention, or additional material since it was "rescued." Maybe even less. I think we are going to have to do a lot better than thus far for it to remain viable and informative to members and non-members alike. With "Lockdown" etc. there is little excuse for not getting far more responses and new material now.
Come on lets get to it! Nothing new? Then troll back through the archives as there is a massive amount of good material still to be expanded or updated. And all for our pleasure and education too! PLUS the forums permanent survival - nothing guaranteed these present days/years.
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It must be said that Messrs F. H. Browne must be extremely brave people to extend out into territories virtually (but not entirely) unknown to them. This especially not just in a bankrupt country as the the UK, but world in general, with churches in massive decline at present. The UK being their main market at present too.
We can only wish them luck, and of course pick up a contract or two through maintaining this forum for us. Lets be honest the forum would have been set up initially with a view to advertising a product as well as giving ourselves a wonderful platform for discussion and information about a subject we all love. This is what Invision Community, former IPB, is (not totally) all about.
Despite all, the Mander Forum has brought all of us much pleasure over many years and long may it continue under the new hosts, regardless of any commercial gain through it also.
Again, thanks to John Mander and F. H. Browne because here we still are.
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1 hour ago, ajsphead said:
It was Roger Taylor, ex R&D local rep who looked after it until he retired. With Julian Mcnamara as DoM I don't foresee any worries about the instrument.
Thanks for the correction and update ajsphead.
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4 hours ago, John Robinson said:
Yes, of course. No criticism intended!
I suppose I could have a guess as to what the 38 ranks might be, but I suppose the only people who might know for certain are the builders. Now defunct, of course.
It would be interesting to have a root around in there, though, to try to work it out.From memory I think it may have been Trevor Tipple from Worcester, who took care of the Downside Compton?? Trevor now retired of course but he may well know the extended ranks of pipes there. He was awarded MBE for his services to Organ Building I believe.
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As a Bath Abbey chorister I went with a small group to Downside in the 60s I would think. I did play the Compton, but young as I was cannot remember much about it apart from all was working at that time, and it sounded magnificent in the Abbey Church.
I believe the great Dom Gregory Murray was still organist at that time. Many of us will remember his many interludes composed for the liturgy. Published by R and D I think.
Peter Matthews (also from Bath) took over from G.M. as organist as far as I can reflect, and also taught at the school. He was appointed Organist Emeritus on his retirement.
I was given to understand that other work carried out in 2009 was the "re illumination" of the Compton press button stop controls. Console is a wonderful looking beast right opposite the enclosed pipework. Definately a place to visit. Lovely area.
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Downside School is very large and caters for catholics and non catholics alike. The abuse cases took place and were investigated thoroughly a number of years ago now, and appropriate action taken. The inspectorate cleared and reclassified the school to a high standard again a few years ago. It produces high quality alumini once again, as well as general education standards. It is unlikely the school will be affected and of course not all monks were teachers at the school, just as not all pupils were connected with the monastic situation.
As indicated above this is not restricted to the RC church, but any church (or non church organisation) with high male authoritarian "management." As I indicated previously having lived in S E Asia for twelve years, it does not take long to discover the huge number of abuse cases in Buddhist temples. Exceeding enormously what we read about in our own countries at present, but that does NOT render it acceptable.
Last year I stayed as a guest in another Benedictine Abbey in UK for over 3 months in special retreat. The way I was received and treated there was nothing more than excellent in all respects, yes including being able to play the two insitu organs.
The Downside Abbey Church is magnificent in very beautiful surroundings plus yes the wonderful Compton restored not too long ago.
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4 hours ago, John Robinson said:
This extract: "The last six years have given the Downside Community time to reflect with sorrow on failures in the care for children entrusted to them" raises concerns in my mind. I wonder what, exactly, they are referring to.
Yes, the church schools get all the publicity of these sordid events and rightly so. However little or nothing is reported about rampant abuse in state schools, where I was abused multiple times in the 50s 60s. in a Bath school. Did anyone want to know about that then? Openly no, but to get it in a little proportion it was the Rector of my church who sorted it out very well in deed with the then Headmaster. Many clergy now doing excellent work still in this sphere. Don't knock them persistently, it reflects hugely on our churches, choirs and yes organists.
I lived in SE Asia for 12 years where abuse of young monks in Buddhist temples is 1000s times worse than that we are unfortunately used to in Europe. Nothing said or dare be said for decades but just slowly changing.
As for the fine Compton at Downside, hardly important in the issue just at the moment, as a few members have indicated.
And no I never really got over the abuse, failing O levels as a result, and leaving school before A levels.
We all must not reflect on this but ALL of us do something before all of of art and churches are lost. Too late to march the streets then.
Apologies for sermon. Now back to our wonderful Forum. In fact still two forums at present.
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10 hours ago, Steve Goodwin said:
So am I - but as it could disappear without much notice it would be good to have a contingency plan in place!
Steve
As we all realise this forum could disappear overnight.
Is there one reliable trustworthy location (with email address) where all of us can in that one place place our name with email address. Then if a similar forum is set up we can be notified immediately.
Having a thread on here for that purpose would leave all of us open for spamming and goodness knows what else.
Just hate to loose this forum and all its history contained therein.
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2 hours ago, Steve Goodwin said:
If you want to keep it the same, i could host one under one of my various sites. The overhead is so small there would be no cost involved.
I could create the same topic structure if that's what's wanted or could adapt it to whatever the majority want.Thoughts?
Steve
Wonderful offer Steve, thankyou. Many of us would like to keep the same format I guess. However may be good to quickly start a new thread where we can air our views on what changes or additions would be interesting to add.
Could be of course that there may be moves or offers behind the scenes by XYZ etc to keep this forum going as is?
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Thanks ajsphead and Damian for your welcome replies.With the glimpse thought it may have been The Temple Church. I will have to study Alkan a bit more. Any reasonably easy ones to start of with?
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9 hours ago, pwhodges said:
From an email sent by Fugue State Films:
Three of Alkan's pedal studies:
Paul
Very nice out of the ordinary post, thankyou. Obviously a Harrison organ somewhere, but I not recognise it or the church interior shots. Presume the studies are available on IMSLP?
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What excellent positive organ news (for a change) in troubled times all round.
Under similar circumstances in UK would this be happening? Mmm somehow I doubt it.
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On 14/07/2020 at 02:50, headcase said:
Had the pleasure of tuning the Tuba Mirabilis at Bath Abbey several times 1979-81, as an apprentice at HN&B. I believe the stop was voiced by Arthur Rundle, a Hill voicer. The shallots had an infill of red sealing wax, which I was told helped to add that brightness and penetrating tone that it had. Hearing the pitch reference (usually the Gt Octave 4ft) against it was a challenge. The long ladder that led up to the Tuba chest was screwed to the Double Open Wood 32'. At the top, one could almost reach out and touch the fan vaulting. To the rear there was a chilling drop, down to the 1/2 length Double Trumpet 32'. Ironically, the Tuba wasn't the stop I feared to tune...it was the upper end of the Pedal Trombone/Tromba 16/8 rank. Impossible to stand away from it and in a confined space it really was quite unpleasant! Still, all meat and drink to a wide-eyed 16 yr old lad.
Hello Headcase. Thanks for the extras on Bath Abbey Tuba etc.
You would have been an apprentice during and after the disastrous enlargement of the instrument during Dudley Holroyds tenure (1970s) I would guess. But to give some credit here the beautiful positive case was added at that time. (Alan Rome was architect.) It sounded very good also.
Wonderful your explanation of the voicing of the Tuba by Arthur Rundle.
Yes I do remember the power of the wood Trombone Tromba on the pedal. Much earlier years Ernest Maynard was asked about extending down for a full length 32ft reed. His reply was quite right really, that with those pedal reeds thundering around the abbey nothing else was needed. The half length 32 trumpet added also in the 70s was next to useless really. Much of the guts of the organ were also removed at this time, hence Klais being awarded the contract for a new organ (basically) not long after, during Peter Kings time at Bath. That is what we have there today.
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I too am much saddened by this news. Manders not just one of the finest British Organ Builders, but on a world standing also. Australia, and American come to mind immediately.
I was much honored to preside for about 10 years at one of their early (1956-58) three manual organs at Walcot Parish Church, Bath in the 1970s. A delight in all aspects.
My thoughts go to all members of the Mander Team, as they grapple with this tragic event.
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20 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
Could you please quote a source for this rather startling information.
I am not at all sure that this is correct. Westminster Abbey is a royal foundation of King Saint Edward the Confessor, re-founded by Elizabeth I as a College of a Dean and Canons outside the jurisdiction of any diocesan bishop or archbishop. Of course the form of worship is that of the Church of England.
As far as St Margarets Westminster is concerned see Deans report "Church Times" 17 July
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The Abbey, along with St Margaret Westminster (the latter no services at all now) in financial difficulties with threats to choral services etc. Why? Both (along with others) are Royal Peculiars. One of the richest families in the world own them as personal private chapels, so why are they not putting their hands in their very deep pockets for their upkeep for the nation. Assume therefore that Thomas Trotter not organist at St Margaret either now?
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On 29/01/2008 at 12:34, James Goldrick said:
I thought I might open this subject for discussion, since I don't believe it has been a thread on this board, as of yet.
In your opinion, what is the greatest piece of organ music written by a British composer? This extends from the Robertsbridge Codex to the contrapuntal masterwork that might have been composed last week in a pub in Staffordshire.
My choice goes to Elgar's Sonata in G Op.28, which I predict will be a contender in the majority of people's opinions. That said, the often surprising diversity of opinion is one of the most notable charac teristics of the Mander Board community.
My second choice goes to Thalben-Ball's incomparable Elegy in B-flat and third place to Howells' Psalm-Prelude Set 2, No.1 'De Profundis".
The only difficulty in my choice was whether to consider the Willan Introduction, Passacaglia & Fugue. Willan had only been living in Canada for three years when this work was published, so there is a slight grey area whether this is a Canadian work or a British one.
I look forward to further contributions.
James Goldrick
I am probably biased:
SONATA IN C minor for organ (Ernest Maynard)
It was unpublished like much of his choral and organ works. (We all know his arrangement of "Arrival of the Queen of Sheba" OUP.) A great pity he being composition student of Vaughn-Williams at RCM. Organ student RCM of Henry Ley.
I heard him play the Sonata late 50s after a Choral Evensong, but he broadcast it BBC pre his RAF war service I believe. Went out live then too I guess.
Pity, if published would have filled a nice repertoire gap for the time.
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On 14/11/2007 at 00:14, Vox Humana said:
Picture this. A small parish church has a two-manual organ, built in 1876, enlarged by someone else in 1891 and restored by someone unknown in 1960-1:
Gt: 8 8 8 4 4 Sw-to-Gt
Sw: 8 8 8 8 4 16 8 Octave, Suboctave
Ped: Bourdon, Echo Bourdon, Gt-to-Ped, Sw-to-Ped
Hope Jones would have been proud of it, given the dedication with which it has been assured that none of the stops blends. The Violin Diapason can cut diamonds; the Cornopean can saw down forests. But at least you can swamp a lot of this raucousness simply by drawing the enormous Gt Open.
Only about 75% of the keys now work. The pipes are choked with dirt and many are off-speech, there are wind leaks, etc, etc. Hardly surprising, given that no major work has been done for over 40 years.
It is touch and go whether the organ is worth saving. Eventually the church opts to retain it at a cost of £20,000. This price includes three tonal modifications: (1) the Great Salicional becomes a Dulciana; (2) a Fifteenth is added to the Great and (3) the Pedal Bourdon is extended to an 8ft Flute.
The restoration was completed two years ago. The other day I had occasion to play the instrument and noted some uneven speech in the trebles of both the reeds. Also the action, which I think must be tubular pneumatic, felt inordinately heavy on both manuals; I have played tracker instruments that are lighter.
My first instinct was to cry “bodge!”, but that might be unfair. I know nothing of the economics of organ building and this got me wondering. What would a really thorough restoration of an organ this size cost? (It is free-standing at the east end of the north aisle and there appears to be no space/access issues that would bump the cost up.) Given that the PCC nearly decided to ditch the organ for an electronic, the quote for its restoration might very well have been a matter of what could be achieved for a price acceptable to the church.
With an organ this size, what would you expect £20,000 to cover?
For 20,000k? Quite a lot and quality if you search around a little bit.
LADACH instruments, pipe organs and accessories: www.pipeorgans.eu
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Thankyou for this on pipe metal casting.
It reminded me of a 6th form school trip in the 1960s, instigated by me of course. Five of us went from Bath to Osmonds workshop in Taunton. A good day was chosen as they were casting on the casting bench on that day. We were received very cordially over all. The intricacies of casting were explained including how spotted metal was arrived at also. Even in those days I had not thought that Osmonds would have a pipe-maker, but obviously so.
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I have not heard them all by any means of course, but quite a few around the globe. However my vote would still go the Bath Abbey Tuba Mirabilis 8' (20 inch.) It replaced the original HNB Tuba circa 1914 shortly after WW2. A few quieter characteristic stops were added at the same time. On his return from war service (RAF) Ernest Maynard had these installed. A booster blower was added at the same time for the Tuba.
In the wonderful acoustic of the Abbey (including the stunning fan vaulting of course) the new Tuba sure rocketed around the building. HNB placed it so well too with the pipes just showing themselves poking above the main swell box, and voiced brilliantly. With the addition of the Solo Octave coupler it was just wow! But sparingly ??!! (Ha ha maybe!)
I had the privilege in the 60s of taking the brilliant blind organist Andre Marcel, to the loft. He drew each stop in turn on the instrument checking all prior to his next day recital. On drawing the Tuba Mirabilis (yep after I first indicated the booster blower switch, he played a short passage! "Magnifique" was his very audible response!!
I believe this magnificent stop was "tamed" rather (along with much more) by Klais in the 90s. Sure we gained some reasonable balanced courses, but still a lot was lost. Oh yes, I know I will be shot at dawn!
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2 hours ago, S_L said:
'Even France'!!!! Organ Concerts in France are, in my experience, usually extremely well attended! Having said that, there may very well be organs in all the big Paris churches but out in the countryside it is a different story. Within 20 miles of my home there are only three or four instruments - all in good playing condition and all used every Sunday !
Who can we blame? - we could start by looking at ourselves!!!
"Ourselves" has hit the nail on the head. We must examine ourselves not just as individuals, but as a musician group. With the dreadful dull, slow, soul-less playing of hymn tunes, we play into the hands of other music "groups" providing really just "entertainment." BUT some are good and have their place alongside a resurgence of good rythmical vibrant playing again. Blaming the organ unacceptable because even within some of our prestigious venues playing the basics of a service is a disgrace also. More later. Sorry gone off the topic. "I repent."
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re BBC Organs. What a sad nation we are. Radio France gets a new Auditorium Concert Arena in Paris in 2014. Gonzales installs a 4 manual, 5320 pipe instrument with 2 consoles about 2016!! But not just that Paris gets a new Philharmonic Concert Hall (several chambers), complete with large 6055 pipe organ by Reiger. Both locations and organs built about the same time. See Youtube.
Colston Hall
in The Organ
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I am sure that it has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum, but the Colston Hall (Beacon) organ is in restoration at Durham with Harrisons at this date.
It has been in store for a while I believe while the hall has been undergoing a major make over etc. Yes it goes back to the hall.
Some years ago it was planned to move the instrument to a new concert hall, but this never was built, despite land being acquired. Shirley Bassey (born in Bristol I think) performed a land acquisition ceremony.
For majority of events the thousands who go there in a year would never know there was an organ in the hall - always curtained over. Would have thought this an ideal time to do something really quite simple so that even just a few pipes may be seen to advertise itself and any future events featuring the organ.
I was privileged to hear Germani and Cochereau there in the 60s.