MusoMusing

Since mentioning the Compton "external organ" at Canterbury, I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't an electronic "Melotone" unit. It was about this time that Compton built combination organs for the first time; specifically at Yarmouth and at Church House, Westminster. They therefore had the technology to do it. I can't give it a lot of priority, but I'll dig around a little bit as time allows: not that I'm optimistic of finding the definitive answer.

That's wonderful, thank you very much! It's the first time I've seen the definitive stop-list, which actually looks VERY close to what I'd worked it out to be from a variety of sources. The notable error was my inclusion of a Vox Humana replacing the Krummet, which I think came from the NPOR listing. It's interesting, but £15K per rank works out at just short of £800,000, but as destroyed, we would have to include all the percussions, traps, effects and the Grand Piano attachment. Once again, many thanks. MM

The value of money is easy to assume on the basis of inflation accounting, and I would agree that a 50 rank organ would cost considerably more than £400,000 today. There's good reason for this, because certain things have increased in value by rather more than simple monetary inflation. Property is one obvious example, and the costs of a factory such as the Chase Road premises in North Acton, would now be extremely expensive. Then the price of fine , seasoned timber has to allowed for. I don't know how the costs have increased over the decades, but I'm fairly certain that they will have outstripped monetary inflation by a considerable margin. There are also many incidental costs these days, such as additional holiday pay, more public holidays,, higher wages and lots of other, less obvious increases. The 1930's were also a time of great hardship, even for working people, and wages were very low. There has also been a decline in civic philanthropy and patronage. My estimates are therefore inaccurate, except in terms of simple monetary inflation accounting. It means that the £400,000 quoted was just a ball-park minimum, when the reality should probably be at least 50% or more extra, using the same (very efficient) production methods employed at the Compton factory. A further factor was the immense profitability of cinema-organ building, ad at Downside Abbey for example, if something wasn't right, John Compton would just rip it out and start again; money being less important than the finished result. It was prestige jobs such as that (which must also have included Southampton Guildhall and Wolverhampton) which elevated the Compton firm to the highest echelons of organ-building at the time. I would hazard a guess that a more realistic figure today would probably be at least double the £400,000 quoted, and maybe even close to the £1 million Barry suggests..

Thanks for correcting me. I was blindly quoting what the late Steve Tovey said on the YouTube video about the organ. He also claimed that the instrument had over 6,000 pipes, which I think is very unlikely. The Hull City Hall instrument is around that sum, and St Bride's comes out at around 4,000. I haven't done any analysis, as the organ no longer exists, but there is a section in my "tome" which I have added, concerning the death of the instrument. There still remains a slight mystery concerning the 2008 addition of a Wurlitzer-replica Brass Saxophone, which presumably perished. I have not found a full specification of the instrument as it was before being scrapped, so I restricted myself to 2006. Even that was difficult to work out, because my understanding is, that after several attempts at this and that, the Tibia Clausa rank ended up being a Moller one, after several trials of other pipes by Conacher and Wurlitzer. By 2006, I also understand that the replica Krummet (by Duncan Booth) was replaced by a Wurlitzer Vox Humana.. I presume that the Wurlitzer Tibia (originally at Blackpool) ended up back where it began. If anyone knows how the Brass Saxophone fitted into the stop-list, I would be able to bring the stop-list up to date, as it was before the scrappage. MM

Peter was a wonderful custodian and a very musical City Organist at Hull, and he carried on the excellent work done by Norman Straffod. I am always amazed by the City Hall organ, which rather like the organ of St Paul's, seems to be right for almost everything. However, the bigger point surely, is that we do not have suitable machinery when it comes to the protection of important instruments. A BIOS listing has no real teeth and English Heritage are only interested in visual things it would seem. Lottery funding would have been ruled out at Wolverhampton, because the removal of the organ was a first priority. It merely needs some sort of emergency appeals procedure, by which interested parties may first of all prevent things happening until all interested parties have explored the options and proposals. It's a curious thing, but the original Forster & Andrews organ at Hull City Hall, would never have come about without an act of parliament, because there were those who regarded the organ as being far too large for the hall, and raised objections. I'm glad to say that they were overruled. I'd love to know what might have happened were Wolverhampton in the Netherlands. Scrapping half a million pound's worth of organ would not have gone down well, but of course, it would never have happened in the first place. It angers me that so many city and town halls have rubbish instruments, and a good example is St George's Hall, Bradford. People somewhere could have benefitted from the gift of a remarkable instrument. MM

I had to smile at the idea of other people using Compton technology, because I was at a chemical works last Wednesday, and went into the master control room. Not since playing the organ at Southampton Guildhall last year, have I seen quite so many luminous-touch buttons....probably about 300 of the things on a huge control panel. The technician was amazed to discover that the technology went back to 1932. He even let me press some of the buttons! (If you learn of a huge explosion at a chemical works, it was probably me!) All they need now is the stop-combination action. MM

That's a positive bit of news....Lord knows, we need it at the moment, after the debacle at Wolverhampton. I've actually added a section about the events at Wolverhampton in the upcoming "tome", which is now nearing completion. After Southampton Guildhall and St.Bride's, Fleet Street, this was possibly the most important example of Compton's work. As for the costings to emerge from the Wolverhampton City Council, the original instrument cost about £400,000 in to-day's money when it was first installed. Even with the later additions, it was only 44 ranks.....not quite St Paul's or the Royal Albert Hall. MM

For the record, Arthur Lord was an electronic and theatre pipe-organ performer, and a friend of Kenneth Burge. Arthur Lord was also the General Manager at Compton's (possibly from 1960 or 1961) during the time the company went into terminal decline. He (and others) clearly felt that the future was electronic, and that a lucrative "home market" was ripe for development. Unfortunately, the Compton electrostatic system was expensive to engineer, and when cheaper imports (especially from Japan) arrived, they could easily undercut Compton prices. Compton's therefore simplified the electrostatic system, which brought with it certain musical compromises, until the point that the Bourn system was totally outclassed, if not obsolete. In order to reduce costs, the pipe-organ side of the business was run-down, and even before it was sold off to Rushworth & Dreaper in 1964, some of Compton's best men left the company. The news created shock-waves at the time, and I recall the LIverpool IAO congress that year, (I was all of 15) when R & D demonstrated various extension-organs in the works, which sounded quite Comptonesque. The obvious failure, was that Compton's never went down the obvious path pioneered by H,N & B Ltd., Noel Mander and the firm formed of former Compton employees, Deegen & Rippen, which really had an impact some years later, when Maurice Forsyth-Grant supported them and worked out a new tonal direction. The rest is history, as they say. Arthur Lord left Compton's before the final collapse, so far as I know, and went to work for Wyvern Organs and his old friend Kenneth Burge. His title was "Artistic Director", whatever that involved. Some time later, he set up the Arthur Lord Organ Studios, where numerous light-music concerts were heard, involving both electronics and, I believe, a Compton theatre pipe-organ. By that time, the Compton firm was dead and gone.. MM Correction: It wasn't Arthur Lord, but the Arthur Russell Organ Studios which had the Compton theatre-organ.

Returning to the subject of Research & Development at Compton, there is another inter-related fact, in that Albert Midgley and his son, Albert Morrel Midgley, shared the patent for Midgley-Walker electronic instrument, which was produced briefly by the Walker's just before the outbreak of war. I can't imagine that went down well at Compton's, when they were developing the Electrone model, and installing the electronic Melotones in non-cinema pipe organs. (Wolverhampton Civic Hall was fitted with one in 1937/8, with "straight" stop nomenclature. I think it was about the time that Midgley left Compton's, but I have yet to discover when Walker's pulled out of the Walker/Compton tie-up, but I believe they sold their shares to the Broad family (father & son), who got control of the Compton firm after the death of "Jimmy" Taylor. Going back to the R & D, I find it fascinating (and not a little puzzling) how TWO completely different systems developed side-by-side,and not only that, the pre-voicing circuitry was a later idea, when Bourn's first system didn't work very well. Apparently, John Compton told him to scrap the idea and start all over again. If there is a slight clue, Bourn was friendly with Kenneth Burge, and it may well be that they co-operated in some way. In truth, the whole thing is a bit of a mystery. MM

It's always good to have a few solid facts to go on, and the price of that 8 rank organ would be about £160,000 today, or about £20,000 per rank. It's still a lot of money for not a great deal, but the illuminated console would have jacked up the price somewhat. The Wurlitzer equivalent around 1926, translates to £400,000 for 11 ranks of pipes and three manuals in to-day;s money. The cost of the Wurlitzer equivalents was obviously a sticking point for many cinema chains, because various ways of reducing the price were introduced; such as the use of Discus blowers made in the UK, which cut the costs of transportation and import taxes considerably. It's easy to see why Compton dominated the market if their instruments were something like half the price. I hadn't realised just HOW much cheaper the Compton organs were, so the figure quoted for the Aberdeen instrument is very revealing. It also explains the reasoning behind Wurlitzer establishing a factory in London, to avoid he taxes and transport costs from America. MM

Baa Baa Black sheep....a mix of Bach and Messaien! I could have done it better myself. Baaach humbug! MM

Another interesting fact re: the price of cinema organs in 1930. I came across a printed price-list, and the biggest stock-model Wurlitzer cost £22,000, which translates to £1.3 million to-day. Not bad for 24 or so ranks of pipes! (About £54,000 per rank) Comptons cost somewhat less, but still serious money in anyone's language.. It's not difficult to understand why organ-builders were falling over themselves to get a slice of the market. MM

I've come across a number of Conacher organs, and I still recall one in Huddersfield, at what was then a Congregational Church. In a word, it was awful. Big fluffy Open 1, muddy Bourdon, booming Pedal Open Wood, an awful Clarinet, a raucous Great Trumpet, a ghastly full Swell (needing Octave and Sub couplers), hardly any upperwork, scratchy Viole.....I could go on. I just hated the thing, yet it was built like the proverbial battleship. Curiously, the same cannot be said of the few theatre organs Conacher built. They were really good, as some of the old recordings at The Scala, Rotherham demonstrated, when we had "The organist entertains" on radio. Especially good were their wooden Tibias, which were a fair match for Wurlitzer versions. MM

Whew! What a relief.

That works out at about £3 per key!

Oh good Lord! Will this book ever get finished? 😕 MM

An interesting factoid about the Strand Lightning Consoles. Apparently Compton did all the console and relay work in their premises. When the BBC changed over to computerised light consoles (etc) they apparently continued to use the luminious-touch stop technology invented by John Compton, and after the era of the Strand consoles. MM

I've never heard this organ, but I do recall Dennis Thurlow telling me that he regarded it as one of his best voicing jobs. MM

I think I was about 15 when I went to the R & D works in Liverpool, during the IAO Congress there. They were just climbing on the neo-classical bandwagon at that point. I'm not sure if we didn't all rush off to hear a new job at a catholic church, and right at the start, the arguments broke out. I must have been underwhelmed, because I can't recall who played the organ for us, but I do recall Dr.Caleb Jarvis, Henry the 4ft (Willis) and Dr Dixon (Lancaster RC cathedral) having a heated argument about it. Possibly ahead of his time, Dr Diixon turned to me and said, "Why do they NEED a second chorus in Bach? Bach didn't write anything which requires one!" I hadn't a clue, so I just smiled and agreed! Some years later (possibly as part of the Chester Congress) we all piled off to Mold PC, and although it wasn't offensive in any way, it just didn't seem right in the acoustic. I think it confirmed to me, that the "continental" sound needs the right sort of building and acoustic to work properly, and at that time, I was lucky to be able to regularly play a superb neo-classical job in the perfect acoustic. MM

I wouldn't want to hi-jack the thread, but the Salford organ wasn't remote. It was just enclosed in a concrete sarcophagus inside the cathedral; the sound picked up my microphones, amplified and sent to loudspeakers. It was a very peculiar arrangement. MM.

I thought I'd replied once, but it seems to have become a floating division! I'll try again! The source re: the auxillary organ at Canterbury, is a primary one, which makes it very interesting. It can be heard in a recorded interview with Roy Skinner, and ex-Compton man who who was actually the Brother-in-Law to "Jimmy" Taylor". I shall have to re-listen to what he said about Canterbury and see if I can transcribe the more important bits. I'm fairly sure it wasn't electronic. Reading between the gaps, I would suggest that it was a smallish unit pipe-organ placed somewhere outside the cathedral and relayed inside, but I have no firm evidence for that. The thing didn't last long, and it makes me wonder whether this wasn't the basis of the Salford job, which followed soon after. At Salford, the organ was in what seems to have been a concrete bomb-shelter in the North Aisle, from which no direct sound emerged. Instead, it was "piped" to east or west of the cathedral, where the sound of the pipes were relayed through speakers. That also didn't last very long....about 10 to 12 years I believe, with only parts of the Compton re-used in the new Jardine replacement. It would be interesting to be able to find a link between Canterbury and Salford which doesn't include Thomas Becket. MM

I don't know how far things have got with the York re-build, but while editing the Compton Story, I came across the following. "At Canterbury Cathedral, problems associated with the position of the organ and the acoustics of edifice, an auxiliary Compton organ (1937) was installed in a remote out-building, and the sounds relayed into the cathedral through dozens of loudspeakers scattered around the building. How successful this arrangement may or may not have been, doesn't seem to have been recorded for posterity, but suffice to say, the detached Compton organ didn't remain in situ outside the cathedral for very long!" MM

Forsooth MM

Forsooth

Thank you for this bit of information. I was intrigued by the reference to Johnnie Dehens. The firm of Degens & Rippen was established in 1959, and the two other Compton men were Ted Rippen and Eric Aitken. I'm not absolutely sure, but right from the start, , I believe they were supported financially by Maurice Forsythe-Grant. The rest, as they say, is history. It's interesting, and a bit off-topic, but if you search Maurice Forsythe-Grant, almost nothing appears, other than the fact that he was a businessman and organ-builder, yet he was the technical brains behind Racal Electronics which eventually became Vodafone. Still, he wasn't the first to think of mobile-phones. I think that particular accolade went to racehorse trainer, Ted Wragg, who's main hobby was electronics when he wasn't bothering with nags. I recall with delight the day he told me the story, of how he went to the directors of PYE in Cambridge, and told them that he had an idea for a microwave, portable telephone. "What a silly idea!" They replied. Even in the world of business, there are runners and fallers; winners and losers.