OwenTurner

There's a suggestion in one of the YouTube comments that this set might soon disappear. That would be a great shame. If anyone has any influence then please apply it.

Have you all spotted this channel? It looks very interesting. It looks like an organ equivalent of the excellent "archive of recorded Church music" one. Does anyone know who is behind it? https://youtube.com/@ArchiveofRecordedOrganMu-by7li?si=oYoSPWiFYwW2a0Ej

Around 1986? All fairly straight until stopping on one chord for far too long then slowly adding notes and changing stops to take it from a fairly ordinary principal chorus chord to a Messiaen chord and texture then flying off for a few minutes then landing on another long held chord and reducing it slowly from a Messiaen chord to a conventional chord and picking up the normal Bach ending? If it had been record review there would have been a recording commercially available and I wish there was, but don't believe there is. My memory is that it was one of the grand big p&fs but I was only in my teens at the time and didn't know my way through the full works.

I can see that there's a real danger of "shooting the messenger" here, where the builder is quoting to a client's instruction. There was a similarly heated discussion of Charterhouse in this forum not long ago. I haven't seen mention of a consultant for the Gloucester work. I wonder who has created the new scheme. It's unlikely to be just Nicholsons acting alone. There must have been a lot of good quality pipework in the HNB instrument which could have been re-used elsewhere. I wonder whether the overly enthusiastic "melting down" comment is really true or headline grabbing, a bit like edgy comedian Joe Lycett's recent "shredding" of £10k.

Looks like the case pipes will be looked after. See if this link will resolve for you. https://www.facebook.com/groups/355269498442029/permalink/1238034526832184/

From James Atherton head voicer Nicholsons on facebook: "It doesn't exist any more you'll be pleased to hear. The pipework has been removed and melted down and the cases are to receive a brand new instrument by us (Nicholson & Co.) in 2026. It will most certainly not sound anything like its predecessor you'll be glad to hear."

I don't think this group has given a lot of attention to the rebuild at Gloucester and the apparent scrapping of the HNB / Downes scheme. The last Nicholson rebuild respected the Downes scheme and added to it under the influence of David Briggs and Denis Thurlow. This time it looks to be replaced. I've heard some very moving performances there by Sanders, Briggs and Mark Lee. More so than in other places I've frequented but perhaps that's the challenge, better for recital than accompaniment? I feel it is a shame to throw the existing away and I'm struggling to understand why they would. Thoughts please?

Watched it. Very good. Thanks for sharing. Could be useful to share with other communities trying to understand what a rebuild is all about.

There's a big batch of sheet music here that someone might be interested in. The snag is that it is only for collection in person. Too far away for me. St Albans way. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334673215579?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=EYInCzGMT--&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=zW6Y5gPTQP6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

My first ever cd player was very fussy to the size of the central hole in discs. I used to keep a piece of emery cloth to fix about 1 cd in 20 so it'd play without horizontal wobble. The mechanics of the disc are definitely important. As ever the tolerance of the machines reading them allows a tolerance of production quality which eventually surfaces at the extreme case. My best cd player has a magnet "puck" which firmly anchors to the horizontal and I can see why. I bought one of those cd ripper things (brennan) a few years ago and many of my collection fail to read in that. More read with an external computer cd drive attached. I'm sure it is no coincidence that those of old quality labels such as DG or EMI are significantly better at loading.

I've heard that Gloucester might be a new instrument rather than a recognisable rebuild of the HNB / Downes. Anybody in the know?

If you start that line of thinking you challenge quite a lot of science?!

Yes I've half pulled bourdons before with effect. I first came across the situation on a gt to ped coupler which frequently slipped and when passing through gt 16 as a bass. I also knew another place where general cancel couldn't always raise enough energy to do a full job and experimented with part pressures for fun from time to time. 16 stopped was the only useful one to take public though. It is something I look to see if i can find in a mechanical stop draw where I can. More quint and longer to settle on the slightly weaker note would describe the sound. Not anything like as useful as the proper pressure but sometimes can give a variety.

He worked east side of Scotland north of Edinburgh most of the time. He majored on high quality rebuilds, relocations and tuning / maintenance. He looked after and rebuilt some significant instruments. I suspect he saved a number of historic organs from going to the skip too.

I have just come across this obituary of organ builder Alexander Edmonstone. https://www.taysideorganists.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Sandy-Edmonstone-obituary.pdf

It has been a fantastic service. I never wondered who was behind it nor considered whether it was a single person. Sad that it doesn't continue as a going concern, but such is life. Big thanks from me.

I'm finding this debate thoroughly fascinating. It's raising all sorts of topics where contributors are unaligned. My personal view is that Charterhouse is an organ I've never seen and is of a type I've no great affection for. However, it does sound good and if there is some consensus that it is top of its class and that there is nothing seriously wrong with it structurally, then I absolutely defend its conservation. The topics discussed in this chain are general to many other situations. There is a near perfect alignment of enough money to do something, an existing instrument of quality, turn of fashion and strong opinions. In many ways I don't think we're a lot further on than the Preston Public Hall Wilkinson debate of the mid 80s. Some of the arguments in this chain don't need much extrapolation to suggest that building a dual carriageway through a swell box was entirely the council's unchallenged prerogative. I think this is the first time I've heard suggestion that the sound world should complement architecture or original intention of a building. An interesting idea. Difficult to apply to more ancient situations I suspect, but worth exploring. Improving on, and remaining in style with Gilbert Scott, sounded optimistic but seeing photographs and drawings, I think that claim is fair. The rights and wrongs of the charitable status of private schools and how they spend their money is an even more thorny discussion!

as guardians of artistically interesting and historic assets? Similar to if they chose to melt down a Henry Moore and mould into something else or demolished a listed building - those would get public interest?

These two haven't had many views. I suspect Imogen Morgan might be someone we hear a lot more of in the future.

In terms of code of conduct, that'd be more one for the custodians and interested groups such as us / BIOS / diocesan organ advisors (though this is probably a private institution), etc? If an organ builder declines a contract then, being a commercial organisation, the same or similar work would more often than not go to another. In this case if H&H declined, wouldn't Nicholson or someone else have got the deal? This situation does look like a decision based on fashion or the musical preferences of the players. If a player is frustrated with the style of an instrument that peers rate highly then surely the player should tolerate or move somewhere else with an instrument more suited to their repertoire or musical aspirations? Sounds like this one is all too late but if not has anyone approached the possibility of a formal letter to the governors of the school from BIOS? Even if too late, a realisation that they didn't need to spend so much money as they've been led to believe could cause some interest. So often a case for work is presented as if there is only one viable option.

There is of course an opposite viewpoint to consider when thinking about priests indifferent to organ voluntaries. How many organists listen to a sermon? I know several places where it's possible and normal to sneak out for a cuppa (or stronger) unnoticed. I think there's a root cause analysis waiting to be done here of the motivations of all the characters involved and why there is sometimes a clash. Perhaps a sequel to "Under Milkwood" would word this better than me. I guess we have at least priest, director of music / organist and verger. Making some presumptions and stereotypes... The priest is looking to spread the message of God and to do their best to retain and increase interested people's attendance, though I've known some who appear workshy and do the minimum. The director of music believes that their style of music enhances the service and would defend that forthrightly against other ideas and styles. The verger ought to be out for smooth running of the establishment but is more often out for work minimisation and power assertion. In smaller churches the vicar and congregation is usually encouraging of anyone offering a visiting choir, recital, concert, flower festival, organist association visit or any other event that will bring people in and brighten the parish. In larger establishments they are sometimes spoilt by the quality of their home team and see it as more a disruption and nuisance. My own two worst experiences of unnecessarily limited organ practice time in my early 20s were at the high handed power control of directors of music who were not my teacher. When I made known those situations I had support from clergy before in one case the DOM moved on (pushed for other reasons) and in the other I went elsewhere where I was appreciated. Of course there's always the occasional verger assertion incident over their control of the key ring, lighting or mains box.

Some thoughts which will stand correction by someone with more awareness... I wish I had the space and the money, but I don't have either! This link https://www.pipeorgans.eu/en/pipeorgans was shared in this forum a few weeks ago and has wasted hours of my time. It seems to have a surprising turnover of stock week by week too. Before lockdown I used to play a game with myself of visiting the quarterly piano auctions in Conway Hall London, giving a few pianos a good look and play and guessing the hammer price ahead of the auction by spending an evening at the preview. With pianos there is much more similarity and repetition. After a couple of years I could estimate most to about 5%. Organs are inevitably rarer and therefore harder to price or shift and I fear you might lose out if there is an urgency. Financially you might gain if you could find someone or somewhere to lend it, if they look after it, to until a buyer is found. I hesitate to mention it as inevitably a sore point to our forum's previous funder but one of those in the link is a Mander organ which came up in the liquidation auction at £6700 (https://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/auction-catalogues/peter-davies-and-sons-ltd/catalogue-id-peter-1-10049/archivelot-5c8c620e-8d92-426a-9f1c-ac1700cdeb6b) and now features here https://www.pipeorgans.eu/en/pipeorgans/(2)Mander-4-I at 24,500EUR, so there's a serious mark up going on in some cases. In retail the usual is for each stage in the supply chain to double cost to strike their sell price, but that is only good for where there is predictable supply and demand. When I bought my second hand grand piano from a dealer it was OK to make cheeky low offers (I got a 10% reduction off advertised price after starting about 25% beneath), so turn that round and it's OK to to make cheeky sell prices and see if you get offers, like when selling houses, but again only worthwhile if there is no urgency to shift it. I sold a harpsichord at Early Music Shop a few years ago. They took a % of the sell price as an agency but a percentage of something is better than the whole of nothing; and I needed the space. You could try there, but I suspect they'd not want to hold it in their shop as I had to work to persuade them to give space for my small harpsichord. https://earlymusicshop.com/collections/used-instrument-agency-keyboards Finally I had a very good conversation with an organ builder a year or so ago about an organ he was selling. He'd definitely be worth asking for advice. http://www.pipeorgansirl.com/kennethjones

I finished reading the Warrell biography last night. I'd really recommend it whether you knew of him or not. It's a lot shorter than the Gedge or Guest biographies and it is more a general social history than very specific about the organ or choral scenes. The Marc Rochester review (link above) nails it.

I think you've pretty much identified the church now! An exceptionally good view from the tower if I'm not mistaken? And probably better organ balance there too! I've been a "camp follower" for family in visiting choirs and more than once I've been able to advise an organist of balance from sitting in pews during a rehearsal when more than one very experienced choir directors haven't done so. There's an interesting point of west end organs with east end choirs not yet mentioned perhaps. Where in the building are you aiming for proper balance? I've never been sure. At the mid position with the hearer equidistant from both choir and organ, although in different directions, it'd probably be the same balance as a west end choir would warrant. I always played a fair bit louder, presumably for best balance at the choir director. Is that the right answer?

That is it! Thanks John Furse!