Nathan
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Posts posted by Nathan
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Is it usual for divisional pistons to also include couplers such as Gt to Swell octave.
The organ I mostly play does, but I wonder if this is usual or not. It's frustrating that I may manually want Gt to Sw Octave, then press a divisional and it goes in, or out. It can probably be adjusted with the software. I don't want to ask the organ tuner to adjust it if it is the norm. -
1 hour ago, Achilles 3201 said:
Good luck - these problems should not have occurred. Regards, Clive.
Thank you for your help. Pleased you can post again.
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Thank you.
I will mostly likely be speaking to the diocesan organ advisor. But if these issues are to be expected, I don't want to create unnecessary fuss, if these issue are to be expected. But based on playing similar action organs who's work was done decades previous, it seems unacceptable to me. A member who can log in but can't post, did manage to work out which organ it was. He also alerted me to a video of the renovation. Up to now the previous organist who is also the treasurer had engaged the tuner / repairer for maintenance and tuning. Even after those visits, I've still yet to have all notes working. He may just accept that is usual.
Below video of renovation.
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At a church I play for. I used to play to bar 16. On the Bb (beat 3) I went to the middle of bar 6 (beat 3). repeat until bar 16.
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3 hours ago, ajsphead said:
You say it was converted from t/pn (I assume) to e/pn. If so how much of it was converted? At £60K I wonder. New e/pn note actions and solid state transmissions just shouldn't go wrong in this timescale if installed correctly.
The keyboards and pedalboards were replaced (Old ones stored inside the organ) and now electric as with the stops, all using solenoids. That all connects to a computer ((I assume) that sorts it all out. Hope I've got the correct terminology for this. Looking in the organ, electric right up to the windchest (soundboard). You can connect midi to the organ, which will play all notes and stop selection. Only thing that doesn't work is swell pedal as that's still mechanical. If that helps work out how much is e/pn.
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Thank you Adrian. Certainly makes sense and the sort of answer that does clear things up.
Reading you reply, I guess the amount spent would make a difference to the size of the organ. The bigger the organ, the smaller percentage of organ overhauled. This one is 3 manuals, 24 speaking stops. I do know the soundboards weren't replaced, possibly cleaned, and the heating system would be the cause of most issues with the solenoids and stop selection. -
4 hours ago, Vox Humana said:
Should such faults happen after forking out large sums? Certainly not. Is it usual? I can't say, but it must be very much more common than it should be.
Speaking for myself, there are major, national firms who I would trust to do a proper, even Rolls-Royce, job. Then there are firms who are very reliable on the mechanical front, but who I would never ask to add extra stops because they lack the artistry. (I know of jobs where secondhand ranks have just been pulled off the factory shelf and plonked onto the soundboard without any attempt at revoicing them to blend with the existing pipework, with ghastly, inartistic results.) And then there are the notorious cowboys who one should never touch with a disinfected bargepole under any circumstances. I could cite two jobs that were done so appallingly that the firms really should have been taken to court. In one case I actually recommended this, but the church declined because they thought it would be bad for their image. At another church an organist friend and I had advised very strongly against using the firm in question, but of course the priest knew better and so proceeded to waste £20,000, just to end up with an organ in the same, sorry state as before, albeit with one of the manuals needlessly electrified.
One problem is that churches these days are hard up. Another possible problem, at least where I live, is that organ building is a dwindling profession, so that existing firms can barely cope with the tuning rounds they have, let alone rebuilds. Nevertheless, a customer does have a right to expect a competent job.
Thanks for that. Another Organist, that also used to play at that church, said it's not satisfactory. He also knows of organs that have had huge amounts spent on them, with nothing seemingly improved. The only stop spec changes to this organ was moving two 2fts back to original 4th spec. Nothing major, and easy for a non organ builder to do.
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A church I play the organ for had the organ overhauled 5/6 years back. I was pneumatic and now electro-pneumatic. A few divisionals put in and organ put back to as close as possible original stop spec. The cost was in the region of £60,000. Which is probably a usual cost for such things. However, since I took over the job (I used to play at the church 20 years previous) there have been many notes which don't work. The company (I wont name, but don't think they are on the forum anyway) gets most of the notes working on visits, some still remain intermittent. Earlier this year the builder suggested the organ 'requires a good days work of action regulation and general maintenance to overcome the settling down of the mechanism'. This was done (and charged for). Also seemed like an excuse to repair faults that shouldn't happen. Still a few notes don't sound and a few have stop working since. I can play chords that don't sound. Over Christmas, the trumpet on the great (the loudest stop on the organ) wouldn't stop sounding even with it in. I had to switch the organ off, which seemed to reset it.
Should these type of faults happen so soon after an overhaul, or is it usual. Looking back through the organ maintenance book, there have been notes missing in action early on since the overhaul. Plus a few that don't stop straight away sounding after the key being released. Since the rebuild, the church now has blown heating installed which it seems also isn't ideal for organs. Am I expecting too much. Other organs (with similar action) I've played have had far less problems 20-30 years on since any major work.
I look forward to your thoughts. -
An electric organ (even a sampled hauptwerk) can never match a real pipe organ. Mostly in the bass 16ft and below ranks. I'm a bass guitarist and someone once said, the only way to hear the pure note is a pipe organ. Speakers still can't match the real natural bottom end. Also, as someone mentioned how strong that could be, again, they may not have the power to match a pipe organ of a similar size.
Anyway, back to the main debate. An organ I'm now playing regularly after a 25 year break had a refurb 5 or so year back. Back in the 60's an organist had a 4ft on the great and choir moved to make them a 2ft (missing the top octave). As the organist at the time of the refurb knew this he had them moved back to the original spec. Now when I play the organ, I miss those 2ft pipes. There are none on those divisions. Was the organ with the 2fts or the original spec better. The previous to refurb spec here. https://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N16005 You can see the ranks that were changed. -
For @Robert Bowles
This probably wont shed any more light on the origin of this organ. Picture adjusted (and rotated) to bring out the red writing.
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for @Robert Bowles picture of Makers plate.
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A church I play at has a Hunter Organ, which has a tracker action. Easy to do some work yourself on that one.
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Once again thank you to everyone that gave some input. I managed to fix the note today, thanks to the kind generosity of a member on here that send me that parts required.
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I'm pleased I stumbled on this thread. Great to see they have a book out (just ordered it). When I was a kid, I purchased a book / pamphlet on St Paul's Cathedral Organ back in the 80's. It's had updates in 1994 and 2008 by Mander Organs. They don't seem to do a book now.
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On 15/06/2021 at 05:30, Dafydd y Garreg Wen said:
Op. 105 is an excellent collection (especially if you like Gibbons). In terms of musical quality it perhaps has the edge on Op. 101. Like the other volume it alternates soft and loud pieces.
Of the latter, nos 2 and 4 are straightforward. No 6 is a much more substantial piece; indeed it feels a little out of place, as there is nothing else on that scale in either of the two volumes. It’s not difficult, but would take more learning than anything else in the two books: well worth putting in the effort, however.
The music is long out of copyright and available on line if you want to check it:
https://imslp.org/wiki/6_Short_Preludes_and_Postludes%2C_Op.105_(Stanford%2C_Charles_Villiers)
(I'm assuming above that you’re looking for louder pieces as out voluntaries, though of course there’s nothing to stop you playing a quiet piece occasionally (or a loud one before the service) by way of a change ….)
That's great thank you.
You mention about soft pieces after service, they would suitable for the end of evening services (once a church I play at starts them again). -
On 30/04/2021 at 03:28, SlowOrg said:
One other thing that bothers me with this new album, but also with some of the older editions of Stanford’s organ music, is to have inconsistent manual markings in the individual pieces. We find the usual Gt./Ch./Sw. in the original works, but I, II and III in the arrangements. I’ve also observed the same thing in the Stainer & Bell edition of the Opera 101 & 105. Which divisions do those Roman numbers actually indicate? Don’t most British three-manual organs have Choir as I, Great as II and Swell as III? Yet it seems that in the aforementioned cases “I” actually indicates Great (?). And what are II and III then? Could someone shed some light on this, please?
I had looked at the book you mentioned (online). Reading your summary, I'm currently pleased I didn't order it. However, at the time I was mostly after the first piece in the 1st six short preludes and postludes book. My old photocopy from my organ teacher has eventually bit the dust.
I just checked my book and an old photocopied (35 years old) page from 1st Prelude in F. It still has I II and III. I thought I was playing the first section on the great all those years back, so took I, II and III as Swell, Great, Choir. Top to bottom. I'm going to have to try it with the suggestion above that makes sense, order of importance. Perhaps I started on the swell. Also in the book there are swell, great and choir indications for other pieces. Perhaps, it's not important which keyboard, just a different registration.
What is the 105 book like? Difficulty level and types of pieces. I'm trying to find end of service voluntaries. -
Thank you everyone for your replies and input. I've had a couple of PM's as well. All being well I should have parts I need to fix the organ myself. I'll update the thread with the outcome.
On 11/06/2021 at 07:53, S_L said:Does anyone look after your organ? Who tunes it? Is it tuned? If so, get it in the tuning book and get it seen to on the next visit. If it makes the instrument unplayable then give them a ring, tell them the problem and get them down to look at it - or get them to send you the part!
Failing that, and if the organ isn't regularly looked after, if there is a Mander Organ Van down the road I'd put a note on his window or try and cultivate a conversation with him when you are taking the dog out for a walk. Tell him what you are looking for, explain the situation and he might be able to help you out! My experience has been that organ builders are usually a friendly bunch. It might cost you a pint!!
Do you involve the church authorities? That's a difficult one! One side says they might be helpful and concerned about the instrument in their care, another side says they might see it differently - and the ramifications of that are worrying!!
It's annoying isn't it! I have Bb11 sticking at the moment - and am waiting for a visit!
The organ is maintained regularly, they have a chap that isn't particularly local (2 1/2 - 3 hour drive). He hadn't long attended to the organ, replaced a pipe and fixed a few notes that sounded with no key being pressed. I wanted to try and avoid getting him back until the next scheduled visit. As this looks straight forward, I figured it wouldn't be to hard to replace the part myself. Also not sure if he approve of someone else (myself) trying to fix it, otherwise I would contact him for the part.
23 hours ago, OwenTurner said:Obvious I’m sure but have you thought about pinching one off the top note or another you might play less? I used to own a spinet with a gradually reducing compass until I got round to sourcing spares.
I had considered that. I decided against it. Just incase it doesn't fix it, and for some reason the part works itself off again. Also didn't want to risk dropping the donor part. Lastly, I'd probably need the top not next time I play the organ. It only goes to top F.
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The organ I play at my local church (Enfield) has a note stuck down. Fortunately it's not sounding as it's come detached from the tracker in the organ loft. The nut has either deteriorated, or worked itself off and fallen into the organ never to be found again. I looks likes I could fix it myself, but I don't know where to get the part I need. I've added a picture of the part at the keyboard level. It looks like a leather (or cork) nut with a felt washer. Any suggestions. There is a Mander Organ van down the bottom of my road and I've considered putting a note on his window.
Divisional pistons query
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
Correct I do. I always say them the incorrect way round, even pedal to manual, which is manual to pedal.
I'm quite sure the system is by Solid State something, (I think Logic). Either way, if it's not usual, and as I don't like the fact it alters them, I will ask the organ tuner to change the scope.
Thank you both for your replies.