John Robinson
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Posts posted by John Robinson
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11 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
However I haven't come anywhere near a point where I'd think of shoving them in a drawer, but nevertheless am a bit picky as to the situations when I put them on, such as when watching TV. Wearing them in the street verges on the intolerable owing to traffic noise etc, and even when doing the dishes I have to turn the volume down as otherwise the clashing and clattering is almost painful, not that my wife allows that as an excuse not to do it
An interesting phenomenon exists whereby one can 'turn down one's own ears' physically when bombarded by loud sounds. I'm not sure how I achieve this, though I believe it involves tensing muscles attached to the auditory ossicles which, in turn, moderates their movement when transmitting sound from the eardrum to the oval window in the cochlea. I can't even explain how to do this, but I think it can happen involuntarily when we hear particularly loud sounds. On the other hand, I have learnt how to do this voluntarily and I'm sure I'm not alone.
However, I also turn my hearing aids down (left ear button) if the ambient sound is generally too loud, or up (right ear button) if I can't quite hear something clearly.
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12 minutes ago, Contrabombarde said:
Yes that Didsbury organ is quite the mammoth two manual organ. Paid for by the city council in compensation for changing the position of the main door of the church due to a road widening scheme that never quite happened - what a contrast to today where the same council is unable to afford the restoration of one of the country's finest Cavaille-Coll organs during the restoration of Manchester town hall.
I didn't know about that. I assume that the main door was originally facing the adjacent Princess Road. The main entrance is now at the south-east (liturgical) corner of the building. Very fortunate compensation payment, I'm sure readily accepted!
(Marge has asked me to recommend their choral concerts at the church - The William Byrd Singers!)
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15 hours ago, S_L said:
Some of the phraseology in the write-up on he church website is interesting!
………………………. and all paid for by the local council - now that is clever!
The church, I see, also boasts a high-quality 'toaster' as well as a 'Makin' analogue 'in store'!!!
I'm afraid I haven't heard, or even seen, the toasters! The only organ used in the concerts I have attended has been the pipe organ.
I can't speak for services, though. -
Not a cathedral, but the church where my wife sings: Christ Church, West Didsbury, Manchester, enjoys an organ of 43 stops including three Chamades, a 32' Bourdon and a surprisingly effective digital 32' reed. Not a bad collection compared to some cathedrals, considering this is only a small parish church.
I have never been particularly enamoured of electronic additions to otherwise completely straight organs, but this one has made me think again.
I think the church (and choir) are very lucky to have such an instrument. I suppose it all comes down to available funding, though.
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22 hours ago, Fiffaro said:
Something to keep in mind when selecting a hearing aid is that all digital aids have some delay between receiving the sound into the aid's microphone and output a sound into your canal. This is unavoidable as their processing transforms the signal from the time domain to the frequency domain where the signal processing takes place and back into the time domain to be fed into your canal. This process relies on storing a small amount of sound before initiating the transformation on it - input and output buffers.
This delay can be minimised but not eliminated, and for people who find the latency on digital instruments annoying, this could be a problem with such a device.
If a manufacturer offers a return by period with full refund, make use of it and don't be shy about taking the devices back if it is not usable. The manufacturers are highly profitable, partly because people that aren't happy simply leave the device in a drawer rather than ask for a refund. It does take time to become used to a device, and audiologist will push customers to try to become used to their device, but if that is not possible, they should be agreeable about acknowledging this.
Sound advice, if you'll pardon the pun.
Fortunately, my (expensive) hearing aids are very good, with one exception: I hear people chatting at the back of the room more effectively than my wife sitting opposite me! Unfortunately, the audiologist can no offer a solution.
I paid a lot of money for my hearing aids and there's no way I'm going to leave them in a drawer. On the other hand, my old NHS hearing aids do sit in a drawer on the off chance that I need them in the case of necessary repair to my private ones, which has happened some time ago. When the six year guarantee runs out and a repair becomes necessary at cost, depending upon the cost, I may decide to revert to the NHS aids.
Regarding your initial, more important point, I can honestly say that I have not noticed any latency with these hearing aids and I assume that they being near to top-end models (or they were when I bought them) that they would employ the signal processing you describe. Perhaps I'm lucky!
I presume that in the absence of any scientific test equipment, I can gain some sort of evidence by relating the sound I hear from the television to the movement of lips on the screen! I have also done this without hearing aids for comparison.
Interesting post. Thank you.
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Darius, thank you for this additional information.
I do think the projected alterations/additions sound excellent choices. The Solo with a Vox Humana (my favourite - perhaps I'm a bit odd!), a dominating Grand Chorus with, presumably, six or seven independent stops (rather than an all-in-one stop as at Liverpool), the Positive remaining where it is and with (from my own experiences) a surprisingly direct sound rather like a 17th century Rückpositiv, and above all a full-length 32' reed - no doubt a big improvement on the underpowered (my own opinion only) existing half-length reed.
I look forward to the work eventually being completed and shall make sure that I undertake the trip across the Pennines to listen to the (hopefully) opening recital. I'll even drag along my long-suffering wife. Please let us know when that will be, won't you?
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20 minutes ago, DariusB said:
For those who might be interested, I've created a page with information about the history of the organ (with links to specifications and a much more detailed history), a bit about the City Organists, and an outline of the future plans for the organ. More details will gradually follow. Any comments welcome!
http://www.dariusbattiwalla.com/Darius_Battiwalla/cityorganist.htm
Darius
I for one am very grateful to you for this information. I believe we (I say 'we', although I no longer live in God's County) are very lucky to have such an excellent instrument, especially at the time when it seems that interest in the organ is dwindling and instruments continue to be replaced by electronic substitutes or scrapped completely. I think that we are also fortunate that work is to be done to improve and/or extend the instrument.
I should be particularly interested to learn of the proposed alterations and improvements to the organ as and when these become available, and would ask if you might kindly provide such details on this forum.
In the meantime may I ask you whether, in view of the addition of a fourth manual, the stops of this new division will be taken from the existing ones or be new additions? Also, is the enclosed fourth manual division to be sited above the Swell or located elsewhere?
Thank you again.
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5 hours ago, Peter Allison said:
Leeds Priory?? LPC surely 😉
Well it used to be. Haven't they changed it to Leeds Minster now?
It seems to be trendy to adopt the title 'Minster' these days for some reason!
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11 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
The orchestra is sometimes deficient in bass, but I'm unconvinced that importing ever more bizarre and expensive large instruments will solve that problem for reasons of simple physics. The traditional approach has been to employ a pipe organ when necessary, and it grieves me when the instrument is omitted by some conductors who think works such as Gerontius, Cockaigne, Enigma and the Pomps and Circumstances can get away without it. Good old Elgar knew what he was about when it came to orchestration and mixing a good sound palette ...
It grieves me too, but it also puzzles me!
Why? Why do they decide not to include the organ when it really should be necessary? Is it because there would be the additional cost of ONE more player? Surely not. Nobody's that tight-fisted.
Is is because of some innate dislike of the organ? I believe that some musicians regard the organ as strictly not a 'real' musical instrument at all!
Perhaps I've missed something. Any other suggestions?
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Life can be so unfair. The poor chap had only just retired. At least his memory will live on.
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22 hours ago, petergunstone said:
That sounds quite a complicated sequence of events and some quite expensive equipment.
Perhaps it might have been easier and cheaper to make twelve wooden pipes to form the bottom octave extension of an existing 16' stop?Of course there is the space consideration.
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On 03/11/2019 at 07:52, Tony Newnham said:
Yes, EMS was on North Parade above Woods music shop. When they sold out to the Williams group, who shortly after went bankrupt, EMS has moved to Salts Mill in Saltaire and is still going strong. And to keep things on topic they often have a couple of Positive organs on display.
Every Blessing
Tony
Ah, worth a visit then, even though I no longer live in God's County.
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13 hours ago, Tony Newnham said:
Hi
Further to Inate's comment about the Clavichord, which I also have read was a common practice instrument in Bach's time, there have been Pedal Clavichords (and Pedal Harpsichords). I saw a pedal Clavichord for sale in the Early Music Shop in Bradford a good few years ago now. Sadly, it was beyond my means.
Every Blessing
Tony
Yes, I spent many days of my childhood looking around that place (wasn't it on North Parade?) imagining that I could buy one of those items.
I shouldn't complain, though. I did, after all, acquire a wheezy old harmonium (with very leaky bellows), a cast-off from the local church, which my dad and his mate struggled to carry up two floors to my bedroom. I distinctly remember it having a fan tremulant which actually rotated! -
10 hours ago, OwenTurner said:
An idealistic, through ridiculous, extrapolation of this dialogue is that the expected audience, organ consultant, voicer and player all need to be similar ages!
Even more ridiculous, give each member of the audience one of those 'clicker' things they seem to use on game shows, whereby each audience member can select 'brighter' or 'duller', and go with the majority vote!
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23 hours ago, Steve Goodwin said:
... and it's also going to depend on the age of the voicer. We all suffer from age-related hearing degradation even if we don't need a hearing aid so the same pipe is likely to sound different to a 40 year old or a 60 year old organ builder.
Yes, of course. In my earlier post I suggested that they might be able to us technology to determine the exact strength of all the frequencies present in each note.
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11 hours ago, OwenTurner said:
Picking up on John Robinson's (20/10/2019 at 08:42) point: "Perhaps they might look at a typical organ recital audience and think, "Yes, we should go for the 60+ option"! (I'm only half-joking.)"
I wonder whether the customary glance down the nave once a service has started, to decide how hard to thump the hymns, should include a rough age scan as well as just quantity to give consideration of using brighter choruses for play throughs. Also giving the incumbent (+20 yr older than me) 8+4, or an 8 with strong partials, for a chanting note might be fairer than a box muffled 8, or even to ask the chap's opinion on a few options.
😄 Yes!
On the other hand, I was wondering whether organ builders consider how brightly they voice their instruments bearing in mind the potential audience - predominantly young or aged.For example, most churches - perhaps brighter upper work to enable older people to hear it; university colleges - hold back on the strong upper work so as not to deafen the younger ones.
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On 20/10/2019 at 08:42, Colin Pykett said:
Over 10 years ago I put together an article about age-related hearing loss (the most common type which eventually affects many if not all of us) and its relation to the sounds of the organ. It's at http://www.pykett.org.uk/arhlandob.htm if you are interested. It includes mp3 clips of how organs might sound to people having varying degrees of ARHL and these have since been used quite widely as demo pieces in educational, musical and audio circles.
Having now had the opportunity to read your article thoroughly, I'd like to thank you for this highly interesting and educational article.
One of the things that occurred to me is to question how organ builders/voicers should create their instruments. Assuming that, whatever the level of their hearing, they have the means to (perhaps electronically?) accurately determine and quantify the frequency content of the various pipes they create, should they voice the pipes/organs to suit a young audience or an old audience?
Perhaps they might look at a typical organ recital audience and think, "Yes, we should go for the 60+ option"! (I'm only half-joking.)
In all seriousness, I believe it is not possible to voice an organ to suit perfectly the hearing of both typical young and typical old listeners.
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23 hours ago, john carter said:
John, in the "normal" program, your hearing aid, like mine, probably switches between different settings automatically, depending on what it thinks you want to hear. That is fine for most of the time. The change I have made is to have the option of fixing it in the "speech in loud noise" mode, which makes it easier to concentrate on the conversation you want.
Thanks. I hadn't though of that. I'll ask if it could be fixed in that setting or, perhaps, switchable into fixed mode.
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6 hours ago, john carter said:
I would say to John Robinson that I have had the same difficulty in restaurants. I have even resorted to a personal microphone, connected by Bluetooth, for my dinner guest - but that is rather inconvenient! This week my audiologist has set up a new program for me, fixing the hearing aid into the "speech in loud noise" setting and reducing the overall levels slightly. My first impressions are very encouraging as the hearing aids seem to focus more on the person I am listening to.
Thanks for that! I believe that mine have a 'speech in loud noise' facility, though I hadn't considered that it might not be activated. I'll have a word with the audiologist when I next see him.
Er... may I please apologise for making FOUR posts in rapid succession. I promise that I am not trying to take over this very helpful thread!
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6 hours ago, sbarber49 said:
I have Boots hearing aids. They were, at the time I got them, more or less "top of the range". I got these rather than NHS ones especially since I know cheaper ones were not good for music - in particular, organ music.
I have since also got NHS hearing aids which are very good for normal use but do have some distortion when listening to organ music.
I bought mine about three years ago from Boots - Phonak B90.
Since you mention it, I still have my (free) NHS hearing aids. Having heard what you and others have said, I think I'll invest in some new batteries and try them to compare with the (expensive) private ones.
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14 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
Over 10 years ago I put together an article about age-related hearing loss (the most common type which eventually affects many if not all of us) and its relation to the sounds of the organ. It's at http://www.pykett.org.uk/arhlandob.htm if you are interested.
Very interested! I've bookmarked it and will have a look when time permits. Thank you.
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16 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:
John - regarding this phenomenon, do you mean when you are wearing your hearing aids, or naturally?
Martin
When I'm wearing them!
I've spoken to the audiologist about it but he can't think of a solution. -
I have a pair of the 'several thousand pounds' hearing aids, yet I cannot hear the top end of a 1' stop or even of a 2' stop.
I assume that, whereas the hearing aids are able to amplify sounds within my hearing range, above a certain point I can only assume that my hearing ability is non-existent, presumably due to too much Emerson, Lake and Palmer at high volumes during my youth.
Incidentally, nothing to do with organs, but I can hear voices behind me in a crowded restaurant very well, but struggle to hear clearly people sitting in front of me!
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14 hours ago, handsoff said:
I recently bumped into a couple whom I know slightly and they asked me if I was still playing the organ. I told them that I was and asked which church they attended, knowing that they had been regulars at a local establishment for years. "The Revival Church at the college", I was told, "You know, the happy-clappies. You'd hate it; bangs, twangs and whistles!" I asked if they objected to the phrase even though they had used it themselves, "No, of course not, that's what we are. It's the snowflakes who butt in and object on our behalf even though we don't know them, like those sighted people who say blind people should be called visually impaired even though the blind person calls themself "blind"".
A rather common occurrence these days! The 'perpetually offended'.
Cranleigh School
in The Organ
Posted
I'm sure I've read other threads on here regarding unequal temperament before, but I think here is as good as any.
What I find hard to believe is that unequal temperament is not employed more widely in organs. Perhaps not concert room organs which are required to work with orchestras and many other instruments, but why not churches and cathedrals. How often do we see cathedral instruments being used with orchestras? Surely, it is far more usual - normal, in fact - for them to be used with choirs.
I'd go so far as to say that a cathedral organ retuned in an unequal temperament like Kellner would not even be noticed as any different by most people, whereas many are likely to find that they like the sound in preference to how it was.