John Robinson
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Posts posted by John Robinson
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13 hours ago, MusoMusing said:
It sounds very draughty!
I think I'd be wallpapering over the mouth; never mind resting things on it.
MMIt could provide a tremulant effect if not properly pasted down!
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That instrument on ebay looks a very attractive proposition, certainly for £250, although I'm sure the offers will have become much higher 'nearer the time'.
In common with many other such items on ebay, though, it would have been helpful to have had a little more information. Still, I'd be tempted despite it being at the other end of the country.
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19 hours ago, MusoMusing said:
The first attempt at a "space-saver" bass was, of course, the Compton Cube, which was quite a complicated beast using the ocarina principle, and not unrelated to Helmholtz resonators. Not many cubes were made, and few survive
The later polyphone, with its' system of labyrinths and valve ports, may well have included "tuned" scaling which might have acted as compensators.
The simple answer is, I haven't a clue, but when one considers something like a Bass Tuba, there isn't a sudden change of tone or power from one note to the next, even if a Tuba is nearer a diaphone or reed than a flue pipe. I've played Compton organs fitted with polyphones, and I've never been aware of major problems.
The bi-phonic basses are very good, but being stopped-pipes, they are not over powerful.
All the 32ft devices (including the Harmonics of 32ft) sound much better in a good acoustic.
MM
Thanks for that information, MM.
Yes, the 32' harmonics at Gloucester Cathedral do sound very effective in creating a 32' tone, going by the Priory DVD in which the organist demonstrates them. Of course, I have only heard them on my TV's sound system.
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On 06/12/2018 at 09:31, Martin Cooke said:
And as a follow through to the above... I wonder what we would like to see filmed next? I'm hoping for Truro and then a new one of Canterbury when the new organ has settled down in a year or two's time.
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but if the new Canterbury Cathedral organ is to be recorded, I'd really like to see a similar thing done with the new York Minster organ after Harrisons have finished their work.
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7 hours ago, MusoMusing said:
Hodges may have been the first, but like all things, the idea existed long before, and what Hodges created was an attempt to replicate woodwind instruments such as the Bass Recorder (or the fingered Bass Ocarina) and apply it to a large organ-pipe. I can't imagine that it was much of a success, because the scaling for different notes would be all wrong.
Yes, that was the problem I mentioned on Tuesday. Did Compton, in improving Hodges' idea, manage to overcome to any extent this disadvantage, other than the use of a separate pipe for each two notes of course?
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On the subject of polyphones, I have just happened across a small passage in Sumner which mentions that one Dr Edward Hodges, organist of St James's, Bristol "devised polyphonic pedal pipes, an example of which was shown by Ducci in his organ at the Great Exhibition of 1851 and later were perfected and used by John Compton in recent years."
Hodges described these pipes (in the Quarterly Musical Magazine and review of 1827) as "on the flute principle ... in one of the sides of the pipe, apertures are cut, near which pallets or stoppers are affixed so as to cover or close them tightly", and goes on to describe their function.
So could Hodges be the inventor of polyphone pipes?
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12 hours ago, MusoMusing said:
I suppose a 32ft Polyphone is better than nothing, and acoustics play a very important part. This is probably why Barry likes the 32ft Polyphone at Hull Minster. The better arrangement were the 6 X bi-phonic pipes, which sound just like a Contra Bourdon rank, as they should.
MM
Absolutely. And the bi-phonic option would be even better and nearer to the conventional type of stop.
This, of course, is only for the bottom octave, presumably, and the rest would be conventional pipes. -
On 16/06/2019 at 14:17, MusoMusing said:
I shall dig out a You Tube extract and edit the link in when I've finished writing. It is probably the best example of just how massive a 32ft Diaphone can sound, even in a big space.
MM
PS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_npr5vxqVAHahahaha! That poor girl!
How useful such a stop might be for when congregations' singing goes off-key.
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On 18/06/2019 at 10:11, MusoMusing said:
It always happens.....everyone gets confused about what is what and what it does.
Just for the record:-
When people refer to "Polyphones", they are often referring to "bi-phonic basses" , where six stopped pipes (producing two notes each) play the full 12 notes of the 32ft Octave. They work by having a tube attached at to the pipe, closed off by a valve arrangement. When the valve opens, the additional volume of the pipe + tube produces a lower note. So bottom C is the lowest bi-phonic pipe with the valve open, and bottom C# is the same pipe sounding with the valve closed and isolating the additional volume created by the attached tube.
The Polyphone proper, is a single large pipe; often laid horizontally, like a large coffin. The "pipe" has one very large mouth, and usually produces just 8 notes, using valves to increase/decrease the speaking length of the pipe in what is a complex internal labyrinth. The principle is not unrelated to the Haskell Bass....the "pipe within a pipe" idea. The usual range is low EEEE to CCC (16ft)....anything lower requiring a much larger pipe. They are usually about 8ft in length, and there is a picture of one at the following link:- https://www.theladyorganist.com/rco-summer-course-name-pipe/
The Diaphone is a bit like a reed pipe, but usually fatter and squatter....often mitred and folded. The principle of operation is not far removed from a conventional reed, except that the reed is replaced with a sprung valve, which oscillates against a hole .....a bit like a rapidly oscillating version of a Saxophone or Clarinet valve.
MMMy grovelling apologies. I meant to write DIAPHONES and not POLYPHONES, the former being what was under discussion.
It was late and I was tired (that's my excuse anyway)!
Of course, these are two completely different animals. Whereas I think that diaphones could be very useful in respect of the sounds they can produce, I'm afraid I'm no fan of polyphones which I regard as a cheap substitute. They must be tantamount to producing a rank of conventional pipes, each of exactly the same diameter/scale, in which case the sound would become increasingly more foundational as the notes progress upward.
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It sounds to me that polyphones can be very useful stops and have some distinct advantages over flues and reeds.
Perhaps they should be more widely used. Perhaps they already are, as you often wouldn't know from the name alone.
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7 hours ago, MusoMusing said:
Have you never been to Wakefield Cathedral? The 16ft Contra Bass is Diaphonic, but ever so civilised and un-reed like. In my forthcoming tome about John Compton, there is included a whole section on Diaphones, and how John Compton utterly mastered their production and voicing. I was playing the organ(s) at Southampton Guildhall 18 months or so ago, which has both a 32ft Diaphonic Diapason bass and a 32ft Posaune. The Posaune is absolutely superb.....not over loud.....very high quality, top drawer voicing, as one might expect. By contrast, the 32ft Diaphone is monumental; producing a flood of sound which can actually be felt in the rib-cage area.
Incidentally, wind-pressure variance has little or no effect on tuning when it comes to Diaphones, and when Hope-Jones used them at Worcester (still buried inside the organ, unused?) they came with variable volume....lighter pressure for pp and highest pressure for "bloody Nora!".
I shall dig out a You Tube extract and edit the link in when I've finished writing. It is probably the best example of just how massive a 32ft Diaphone can sound, even in a big space.
MM
PS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_npr5vxqVAMany thanks for this, MM.
I have been in Wakefield Cathedral, though the last time was many years ago before I moved to the inferior side of the Pennines. Even then, I don't remember ever actually hearing the organ. Also, I'm afraid that I wasn't aware that the Contra Bass was a diaphone, but thanks for the information. I suspect that there are many more of the beasts about of which I am unaware. I should be interested to read your 'tome' when it becomes available.
Yes, I was aware that there is/was(?) a diaphone at Worcester. I believe that the original case (and contents?) is still present in (I think) a transept and have often wondered why it wasn't retained as playable when the new organ was installed. Perhaps they intend to restore it to use when they have a bit more brass.
Yes, I recall reading some time ago that diaphones don't vary much in pitch with different wind pressures and am sure that the facility to alter the pressure, presumably from the console, could be very useful. I wonder whether that could be achieved with some sort of swell/crescendo pedal. I have a feeling that that may have been done with some free-reed stops, perhaps in Germany.
I just listened to the link you kindly provided and, although I am no fan of cinema organs, I must admit that there is a variety of interesting sounds in that recording. I can only hear that on my quite limited laptop speakers which, of course, can only imagine the reproduction of a 32' sound! Nevertheless, the section where the diaphone appears (if I'm correct) is impressively loud. I must dig out my headphones, which will reproduce such sounds far more accurately, and have another listen.
Thanks again.
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6 hours ago, Damian Beasley-Suffolk said:
There is an article in the September 2012 edition of Organists Review by Paul Hale about the Ambleside organ, available from his website here https://paulhale.org/interests-articles.htm which doesn't address all the points above, but is very interestng to read and has nice photos.
Thank you very much for that, not only for the information about the St Mary organ, but also for other of his informative articles I was unaware of.
I'd still be very interested to hear that diaphone as I can honestly say that I have never actually heard one, at least in 'real life'! I'd hazard a guess that a diaphone would sound rather different from a reed, bearing in mind that it uses a beating valve that is either 'open' or 'shut' rather than a reed which, I assume, opens and closes gradually. I imagine that would be something along the lines of a square-wave compared to a sine-wave?
Perhaps, if I discover a forthcoming recital, I might take the trouble to travel there - assuming, of course, that the diaphone would actually be used!
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6 hours ago, S_L said:
Are you sure about that? I heard it - once - but it is a long tome ago!!
I think there is very little Hope-Jones left. All of the choir, save the Tuba, is from the 1935 Hill, Norman & Beard rebuild and the Great and Swell have additions from 1905 and 1935. I think, if I remember rightly, it has had a rebuild reasonably recently with all of Hope-Jones electrics being removed and put 'on display'. The console is, broadly speaking, Hope-Jones but the stop keys are not the original ones!
I think that the church has seen some re-ordering also - and, very slightly I'm under the impression, along the lines of St. Michael-le-Belfry in York!
…………………. but it is in beautiful part of the world!!!
Yes of course. As I mentioned, there has been much alteration (and additions) since the Hope-Jones original.
I had intended to include a photograph I took on that visit of a wall plaque near the console which provides a brief explanation of its history. Unfortunately, in order to make the photograph acceptable for addition to this forum I had to reduce its size/detail substantially to the extent that the text was unreadable!
One interesting detail that is not mentioned in Paul Hale's article (supplied by Damian, above) that was included on the plaque is that the original Hope-Jones organ action electromagnets were powered by "a great many Leclanche cells covering the chamber floor". I can't imagine the problems that must have existed in ensuring that they were all maintained in a charged-up state. This, of course, in the days before mains electrical supplies were common, especially in remote locations.
Oh dear! Surely that church is not going 'happy clappy' like to many others have? What would happen to the organ?
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4 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
Actually I now realise that the only reason I went to church at all was because the buildings contained organs, and that particular one had quite a respectable three-decker which they allowed me to practice on. I doubt that would have been the case had I not agreed to be "saved" ...
To be perfectly honest, I too am of the same motivation.
Yes, I was a choirboy but (apart from my mother insisting I attended church and Sunday School) the real reason I went to church was to have a look (and possibly a listen) at the organ. It is with some slight embarrassment that I admit that despite having been confirmed at Bradford Cathedral, I have since 'seen the light'.
Even now, to my wife's chagrin, wherever we go for a day out (or longer) we find ourselves inside (unless it is locked up) a promising church for that exact reason.
As a slight aside, we recently stayed for a few days in the Lake District and, needless to say, popped into one or two churches. One in particular turned out to be particularly interesting. St Mary, Ambleside rejoices in possessing a Hope-Jones organ of 1898 which, although with the inevitable alterations, still contains a 16' Diaphone on the Pedal despite having a total of only 24 stops. It was restored in 1999 and, thankfully, is still fully playable.
I should have loved to have heard it.
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39 minutes ago, Ian van Deurne said:
In my young days working for Johannes Klais, such a "thing" would never have been contemplated, especially because as has already been said here that it resembles something from the realms of a pipeless digital instrument!
Money talks, I suppose.
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22 minutes ago, contraviolone said:
I would certainly be interested in your views with regard to the revised specification of the York Minster organ.
Moi aussi.
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I suppose they could have bought a synthesizer more cheaply!
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10 hours ago, Adnosad said:
Probably as a direct result of him being born and bred north of Watford Gap. Time well overdue that all this nonsense was swept out with the rest of the detritus.
I completely agree. You would have thought that in the 21st century the London-centricism would have become passé, and people of this country would have been valued equally regardless of where they live. Not so, I'm afraid.
Congratulations to Stephen Cleobury, though. Well deserved. I remember once, years ago, I wrote to him personally asking for some information about one of the pieces I'd heard on the Nine Lessons and Carols series (this before the days of Google!). I received a very nice response and explanation despite his being, I'm sure, a very busy gentleman.
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On 30/05/2019 at 19:39, David Pinnegar said:
The interesting thing about Kellner as chosen by Mander is that the very "worst" thirds aren't very much more unacceptable than equal temperament thirds.
Best wishes
David P
I'm afraid that I can't comment because I am unfamiliar with Kellner or any other unequal temperaments. I only remember listening to organs in ET. Ideally, I'd very much like to hear the same piece of music played on organs with ET and Kellner temperament for comparison.
However, from your description, Kellner does sound a very attractive alternative.
Is it the case that in Kellner there are no 'unusable' keys as there appear to be in other unequal temperaments?
If such is the case, why is Kellner not more widely used?
For accompanying choirs, the slight differences in temperament would surely hardly be noticed, and even less so by the average congregation, yet the music would likely be more 'musical'!
If the organ were to be played alongside other instruments, if I understand it correctly, most of them would automatically (naturally or through the player's modifying their playing technique) sound in the same (Kellner) temperament.
Apologies if I have misunderstood, and I look forward to being corrected if so, but if Kellner really is an attractive temperament compared to ET I'd love to hear it used more widely.
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7 hours ago, MusoMusing said:
It's easy to hear why, when you listen to this from the famous Schulze organ at Armley Parish Church:-
Not trying to be funny, MM, but as I pointed out several years ago on the YouTube page, that's not Armley Parish Church (as I'm sure you're aware), but St George's next door to the Leeds General Infirmary.
As someone else mentioned on the same page, St George's doesn't even have an organ; it's a 'happy clappy' church!
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I should also add that the 1831 organ in York Minster (by Elliott and Hill) featured eight independent pedal stops, four at 16' and four at 32'(!). The present organ has only three 32' stops (soon to be four again) and two of these date from the 1831 organ, some of the earliest 32' stops in this country.
Just prior to this, around 1820, pedal stops were placed within the screen: seven on the right side and six more on the left side (presumably as viewed from the east). It is uncertain whether or not one of these two sections might have been played from the manuals. Of course, in early 1829 all of this was completely destroyed by the lunatic who set fire to the organ and surrounding furnishings in the choir.
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14 hours ago, Paul Isom said:
This has just popped up on social media - the first photo of the organ after the fire. It’s really quite remarkable.
Excellent news.
Presumably, funds will be found from all the generous contributions for restoration of the cathedral to ensure a full cleaning and any other work needed to make the organ sing again.
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9 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
Just came across this as I was having a gentle browse:
It wasn't dated April 1st either. Strange, as they missed an opportunity to really make the point!
It sounds absolutely ridiculous, to the extent that it must be some sort of joke.
However, the way things are going these days (in this country at least) with the rise of the 'professionally offended', it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was a serious condemnation of the instrument!
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2 hours ago, pwhodges said:
In what sense were the organs of, say, Father Smith and Renatus Harris not "fully fledged, independent" instruments? Sure, they were smaller than the largest organs of the mainland continent, and suited to a somewhat different repertoire, but those are hardly the defining factors, I'd say.
No pedals, perhaps?
Priory Records DVDs
in The Organ
Posted
Yes indeed, both Canterbury and York. To be able to hear high quality recordings of both, both 'before' and 'after', would be very interesting and enlightening.
Of course, I haven't forgotten Robert Sharpe's kind offer. Personally, I wouldn't want to actually play the organ - I'd embarrass myself! But to be able to hear individual stops and combinations of stops demonstrated would be very interesting indeed.