John Robinson
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Posts posted by John Robinson
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11 minutes ago, Damian Beasley-Suffolk said:
Interesting view of Hexham's front here
and a view of its much less interesting back
If you go up the stairs in the south transept and peer into the triforium adjacent to the organ, you can see what I think is the Echo organ of the previous instrument.
Why is the back of this instrument so bland? I can't find an explanation of the ideas behind its design.
A couple of interesting things occur to me here, not knowing anything about the Hexham instrument. Perhaps someone can help.
Is it possible that the 'back' (the chancel side) of the organ is mainly covered up for a very good reason? That the organ, being so close to the choir stalls, might be too powerful here unless attenuated by the use of these boards, yet unobstructed at the nave side where a more powerful sound is needed. (Or perhaps the chancel and choir stalls are never actually used.)
My other question, completely unrelated to this particular organ though brought to mind by the picture, concerns the common practice of providing a curtain to 'hide' the organist from view. Is this done for the organist's benefit, if s/he is a 'reserved' sort of person, or to avoid the congregation being aware of his/her presence as a distraction from the religious side of things? Hopefully, the curtain can be slid to one side if a recital is taking place!
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Very sad news, not only for the organ world as a whole, but also...
I used to fancy her.😍
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5 hours ago, Stanley Monkhouse said:
SWMBO is deaf too, so it's really quite blissful. We send each other Facebook and email messages.
John: "However, I too find a distinct benefit to my hearing loss ..." As I hint, there are several benefits, and not being "able" to hear what is said to me is more often than not a great blessing. SWMBO is deaf too, so it's really quite blissful. We send each other Facebook and email messages.
Haha! I'll suggest that to 'Marge'!
Fortunately, she has very good hearing so I don't find I have to repeat myself at all.
On the other hand, she does... quite a lot. In fairness to her, though, she doesn't often become too angry with me! -
7 hours ago, Dafydd y Garreg Wen said:
American accents generally (regardless of sex) have more “twang” than British, that is the higher harmonics are more developed, which gives them more carrying power etc. This is why a party of Americans will seem so noisy. Combine that with the higher pitch of a woman’s voice and you get the sharpness and power you refer to (exactly the same phenomenon we’ve been discussing above in connexion with “strong” mixtures, perceived loudness, etc.).
Yes indeed. That makes a lot of sense.
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14 hours ago, Stanley Monkhouse said:
John, my hearing deteriorates too, high frequencies esp, so women's voices are harder to hear, and those of many young people who speak as if they're on helium. Organ wise this has two unexpected consequences. (1) Although high tones disappear, screeching mixtures are almost painful. (2) isolated notes above about F42 (from CC) sound out of tune.
But I'm going off topic. Just goes to show how subjective it all is and how we should take the opinions of others with barrowfuls of salt. Indeed, I sometimes think organ tonal "experts" should have a certificate of normal hearing, whatever normal is, if they expect to be paid for their services.
Loss of hearing is not without its benefits of course. As a now retired clerk in holy orders, I can tell you that latterly PCC meetings were verging on the blissful.
An interesting point. Actually, I find that my hearing aids help generally in attempting to correct my loss of high frequency perception and in many situations I am quite happy with things. However, when listening to Priory DVD demonstrations of various organs and specific stops, especially 2' and higher, above a certain point on the keyboard the sound completely disappears. I am sure that is due not to an inferior sound system, which mine is not, but due entirely to my ears. I'm sure a point must arise where, however good the hearing aids, a sound cannot be amplified when the ear is completely unable to perceive that frequency level.
Conversely, when watching the television news, using the same sound system, I am quite repelled by the sharpness and power of some ladies' voices, especially American ones for some reason.
However, I too find a distinct benefit to my hearing loss. As my father before me often did, I can justifiably claim that I hadn't heard something which I actually heard but didn't want to hear!
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13 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
The Merton organ is magnificent both aurally and visually, but it’s a large instrument and the Chapel east of the screen doesn’t have anywhere to accommodate it. It’s not unique, nor particularly uncommon, to find a west end organ in a college chapel. Without knowing, I suspect that there could be a CCTV monitor (possibly behind a concealed panel - this is only a vague recollection, and could be wrong) in addition to mirrors above both jambs. There’s also a chamber organ just to the east of the choir stalls.
The Dobson organ case is brilliantly-designed so that when viewed from the east the towers and flats are perfectly framed by the arches of the screen.
It is indeed an impressive organ, though I'm surprised that it doesn't have a single 32' stop.
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12 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
OK Stanley, since you asked so nicely, and because it's far too hot to think of going outside, here goes (with apologies to John if he thinks I'm paddling in his pond) ...
Absolutely no apologies needed!
I found your explanations both interesting and enlightening and I agree with them entirely. I might add that I respect and enjoy the benefit of your far greater knowledge of the subject.
I have heard for myself that organs with relatively low wind pressure can be at least as 'loud' as the high-pressure ones which held sway in this country in the early 20th century. There are far more important factors in play: location within the building, the building itself, the use of strong mixtures, etc, etc.
My personal preference has always been for a brighter sound, especially since my hearing has begun to deteriorate!
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On 23/06/2020 at 23:44, Stanley Monkhouse said:
Thank you, Mr White Rose Man, now tinged pink.
Southwell, York and Ripon all have wooden nave roofs. (I'm talking of York organ 1960 to 2019).
Still pristine and unadulterated white despite my present location, I assure you!
Yes, of course, I'm sure that stone roofs carry the sound of an organ better than wooden roofs which, I'm sure, must absorb much of the higher harmonics.
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What an excellent post!
I am almost certain that the majority of the sound from a flue pipe comes from the mouth (though I stand to be corrected!), I'd be very interested to hear responses from more knowledgeable members to the several other questions.
I do hope you receive a comprehensive list of answers!
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2 minutes ago, Contrabombarde said:
So if other people are hoping to play later in the week, a safe way needs to be established to decontaminate (bleach is probably not going to do wood or ivory much good, but wiping with dilute household detergent should be a reasonable compromise).
Or simply leaving the console untouched by human hand for 3 days?
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13 hours ago, Tony Newnham said:
Hi
Regarding Cathedral entrance charges (which I personally disagree with - must be my Yorkshire heritage), Coventry announced last year that admission charges were going to be abolished. I can't remember the timing, and obviously I don't know what effect the current situation will have on that. The only times I've been there recently has been for Organist Association events starting at a relatively early hour, and there was no charge - nor any sign of anyone collection money when we left (also, these visits were Feb/March, so hardly the height of the tourist season!)
Every Blessing
Tony
We visited a cathedral 'darn sarf' last year and were pleased to see that they didn't demand anything. Instead, they politely asked if anyone would like to contribute and suggested a suitable amount. From what I could see, everyone coughed up without question.
Even I paid up perfectly willingly despite being, like you Tony, a 'tight-fisted Yorkshireman'! (Sorry.)
Needless to say, I thought it far more friendly to do things that way than demand a set admission fee and I wonder whether the overall income might be higher when asking politely. 'Demanding' certainly rubs up many people the wrong way, myself included.
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14 hours ago, Niccolo Morandi said:
Still working on the concept art so I don't have anything to show you just yet, but I recently came across a house organ that I had stumbled across a while ago but couldn't remember the name of.
It's an instrument that I feel that I have to share with you, as although the specification only consist of three ranks of pipes the case design is quite a conversation piece.
Good heavens! It looks a bit like that Disney thing in America.
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23 hours ago, DaveHarries said:
Members of this forum might be interested to know that a YouTube channel was established about 3 months ago dedicated to the organs of Cologne Cathedral, Germany. There are - at the time of writing - 9 videos featuring not only music, interior tours of the crossing and nave organs and other things besides. The clips are mostly done by Winfried Bönig (organist of the Cathedral) but one of the clips also features some technical insight from an employee of Klais (Bonn) who built both instruments and the videos are in German.
The YouTube channel can be found at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNAbpw1TN1AVttE3v2zRSSQ/ and there is also a Facebook page for anyone who has it - https://www.facebook.com/domorgel - which has been in existence longer than the YouTube channel.
HTIOI,
Dave
Very interesting. Thank you.
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6 minutes ago, Vox Humana said:
That one dates back to Sir John Goss. See page 30 here.
Haha! I can't remember to whom Ian Tracey was alluding, but probably the same man.
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1 hour ago, contraviolone said:
Apologies for steering the conversation back to the York Minster organ. I do agree with the highlighted comment above by John Robinson. As you say the Cornet is firmly rooted in the English organ tradition, together with, dare I say, the Sesquialtera! These colourful stops owe nothing to influences from European continental organs. I fully understand the ethos of the current rebuilding of the Minster organ, but I am a little perplexed as to why at least the Cornet has been dropped?
Perhaps Robert Sharpe may be patient enough to respond to this. I know in advance that such issues as space to accommodate a V rank stop (even commencing from tenor C) will always be an issue, given the new specification for the organ. But I just feel, once all is complete, there may be some regret for the loss of at least the Cornet, with all the colour and versatility this stop can bring to the organ repertoire.
Thank you.
Whilst I agree that the York organ needed some changes to make it more powerful and able to project down the nave, I do like the idea of a wide tonal palette in an organ. Perhaps that is of secondary importance in the accompaniment of services, although I'm sure it must be useful in psalms, for example, and certainly in organ recitals.
Of the losses of mutations from the York organ, I feel that the Cornet is perhaps the one I'd most like to keep. The Sesquialtera perhaps less so, and its replacement by the Harmonics might compensate to an extent depending on the sound of the latter stop. The Larigot is probably the least important and the use of the Nazard with the 16' on the Choir might possibly produce a similar solo voice, although the Larigot being such a small stop might have found space somewhere in the instrument!I suppose I must sound like Ian Tracey's 'knackered cart horse' - always wanting another stop.
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5 hours ago, WJ Swindells said:
One of the consequences of "Lockdown" is having some time to peruse these developments from afar. York Minster Organ post 1960 was the one I recall as having iconic status and it's interesting how most British organs evolve every 30 years or so. The new specification reads much more in-line with one school of thought rather than the admittedly eclectic mix that it had evolved too, and which in his 2007 sleeve notes, John Scott Whiteley says had partly been the aim of the 1993 rebuild. (English Cathedral Organ Series CD XV) I have also been watching Daniel Moult's "English Organ" DVD in which he ruminates about what is "English Organ Culture?" and perhaps in 2020 we have the confidence as seems to be stated in this rebuild that we don't have to, any longer, defer to France, Germany or Denmark as ideal organ cultures but have confidence in our own pedigree. Will Gloucester Cathedral go back also to the pre- Ralph Downes ideal I wonder...)
I completely agree that we should have confidence in our own organ pedigree, but does that mean that we can't still take in some ideas from other national organ styles? I have heard the 1993 York Minster organ, both on recordings and live, and I feel that it still sounded completely 'English', at least to my ears!
As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, I welcome the changes presently being made by Harrisons and am sure that there will be noticeable improvements, especially with regard to power and projection. However, I'd still have liked it to retain some of the voices being lost. The Cornet, for example, would surely not be out of character as cornets have been a feature of English organs for centuries. -
13 hours ago, Niccolo Morandi said:
I guess the reason why I'm so concerned about the dimensions of organ pipes is that in order to draw up specification I need to know how much space each rank is going to take up, plus I'm concerned that I am a bit ambitious with wanting to fit so much into a small amount of space.
My advice would be simply to examine some existing scale plans to gauge typical space requirements for different stops. Of course, organ builders are expert at knowing how to squeeze things into limited spaces, but if you err on the side of generosity of space I think you'd be on safe ground!
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6 hours ago, Niccolo Morandi said:
My problem is that although I have drawn quite a few pipe organs in the past I have never drawn an organ that is to scale. Or a plan detailing where the pipes and components would be placed inside an organ case.
Although I have absolutely no qualifications or practical experience in organ design, it is one of my favourite 'hobbies' to design organs. Diagrammatically, I use an old, but still very workable installation of TurboCAD for detailed and accurately to scale projects, and also Photoshop Elements for less accurate attempts but with the advantage of modifying already published plans.
I don't go so far as to include every single pipe and such things as electrical cabling, etc., but the basic layout of display pipes, wind chests, building frames and case work are more or less within my capabilities.
Of course, written stop lists and the like are relatively easy!
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Thanks. Good idea. Noted.
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11 hours ago, Stanley Monkhouse said:
well, it'll not be long before that's the case here, I suspect - at least, organs that are playable. Organs in churches proliferated with the Oxford movement. Before that, fiddlers on the gallery at the back. Back to the future?
More likely 'worship groups'! Though not necessarily on the gallery.
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If the worst should happen and this church (along with others) is forced to close, perhaps the least we can hope for is for the organ to be bought by another church or organisation (quite likely abroad!) and consequently saved.
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10 hours ago, S_L said:
I have to say that there is a lot of this post that I don't agree with!
Where do you get that the French people are not interested? It might be a slightly romantic view but I would say that Notre Dame is at the heart of the French nation! And M. Macron is incompetent?
I think there is a good deal more interest, from the French people, in the rebuilding of Notre Dame than there was in the UK after the fire at York Minster - or Windsor! True that within the French population there is a sizeable anti-religion group. My next door neighbour's wife said "Let it burn!" But he was in tears! Sizeable audiences attend the organ recitals on a Sunday afternoon, and up and down the country, far more than ever would in the UK and, whilst the French don't go to church they pack the place on August 15th or at Toussaint
Sadly, I agree. I have been to many organ recitals where I feel sad at the apparent lack of public interest, going by the size of the audience. I may have mentioned before that I attended a recital in Cologne Cathedral several years ago when the place was literally packed, many having brought along camping chairs to sit in the aisles as the pews were full. And, if I recall, that was a recital mainly of Messaien!
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1 hour ago, Martin said:
Cappel was equal temp. since the transfer from hamburg and remained so to the present day!
I then remembered its long history and was pleased to find quite a bit on Youtube...
also some tour of stops by Walcha: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kEhTdqIw2rBKiuUGiTZtkJKSaK0vQPJhg
Martin
Lovely sounds.
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2 hours ago, Karsten said:
So let's give it a try and I apologize for any misstranslations in advance, I am not a native English speaker...
Just a first paragraph. If you like it, I will see, if I can translate some other parts.
Jürgen Ahrend about Helmut Walcha, the famous Schnitger organ at Cappel and his work as apprentice with Paul Ott there:
Regards,
Karsten
Well that makes perfect sense to me! Thank you.
Interesting, though, that Cappel was in equal temperament.
Organs on Google Street-view
in The Organ
Posted
Indeed. I'm pleased to hear that many found the presence, even the existence! of an organist fascinating. That is one of the reasons I mentioned it. I shouldn't be surprised to hear that some are not even aware of an organist, believing that the organ is a machine which plays itself, just like their HiFi at home!
I always found the story of the famous organist W. T. Best amusing when, awaiting his prompt to play a town hall organ, the mayor announced to the audience that "The organ will now play", remained in his seat and when a questioning look from the mayor was forthcoming said, "Damn the organ, let it play!"
I personally believe that the organist should be visible to the congregation (assuming s/he is willing!), just as everyone else on the 'stage' is. It might even result in the general public in this country taking more interest in the organ especially as, if the organ had as much public following here as in, say, Germany and the Netherlands, we might find that fewer organs in churches are being scrapped!