Pierre Lauwers
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Posts posted by Pierre Lauwers
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Here is an example of a 19th century italian organ, with contemporary music:
(It might be somewhat surprising. But before "judging", remember, all things
authentic are surprising)
As for the "cecilian reform" inspired post-romantic organ, here is one of the latest examples:
Pierre
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Thank you both for your informative replies. How did later Italian organs evolve, e.g. in the nineteenth century? I saw on this board somewhere a comparison of a recent Mascioni organ to the style of William Hill. How was the Italian organ tradition affected by trends elsewhere in Europe?
This is a very complex matter, that could fill at least 10 pages here -which is a normal occurence
for such a sophisticated country!-
To keep it brief -and of course unsufficient-:
-The italian organ of the 19th century does not exist per Se, as there are several "Orgellandschafte"
with distinct traits; (this is of course also true with the earlier styles)
-The Ripieno basis continued straight towards the end of the century;
-Besides this, there was a tendancy to develop "fancy" stops, accessories, in a manner that
announces the theatre organ; there were little influencies from others countries;
-Towards the end of the 19th century, a liturgical reform took place, the "Cecilian movement", which
impact on the organ was a wider influence from abroad, among which England ;
-The result was a typically post-romantic organ style, emerging around 1900, which was closer
to the others european styles of that epoch.
Pierre
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You have certainly put the brakes on this topic now, Pierre. That's the end of British Organ design for another year!
N
Would it be your wish maybe ? After a very interesting post....
(I have been a trained engine engineer in another life. My speciality
was fuel-efficiency)
Pierre
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You'r all gas-guzzlers !
Pierre
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Those traits of the Grove organ are well demonstrated on the sole video
available:
I do not think any modern builder would be ashamed to get that sound !
(And this, with 35 stops...)
Poerre
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======================
It does raise an interesting question, as to why the Lewis sound has never been re-created or used as the basis for a more modern British organ style.
MM
There was a new path already open yet: William Thynne !
As far as I know, he worked with Lewis, after having tuned
the Doncaster organ for years. More, when he went away from Lewis,
he took some employees with him (!).
The Tewkesbury Grove organ displays the result: a Schulze-Lewis-like
Diapason Chorus (with Quint Mixtures) paired with Willis-like reed choruses.
There is a Saint-Saëns recording which is enough to convince.
Pierre
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If there is at least one open 16' on the manuals and one stopped 32' on the Pedal,
you could try the Walcker Scheme, that is, something like:
Grossquintbass 10 2/3' (open!)
Grossterzbass 6 2/5' (open!)
Quintbass 5 1/3'
Sesquialterabass 3 1/5'- 2 2/3'- 2' (assuming there is an independant 4' stop of course)
The voicing rather dull, intended to favorise the resultant tones.
Pierre
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Excellent comments. So, now can anyone come up with a scheme that does or might work for a pedal Harmonics (stops and pitches used) so that it could be a staring point for experimentation?
F-W
-In which kind of organ ?
-The Specifications ?
-In what kind of room (such stops need room to act as "acoustic levers"...)
Pierre
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Mendelssohn played by the belgian organist Jozef Sluys
on the superlative Walcker organ in Riga:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGtZv0Db_3c
Pierre
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"A local builder to my home in the last century created extraordinary small-scaled Violons which (depending on the other stops) could sound like orchestral Double basses or Bassoons. Now that is what I consider good design."
(Quote)
I fully agree: Let us reconstitute the Worcester organ as well as Mulhouse's!!!
Why should we ? Because the neo-baroque fashion teached us one thing: we cannot go ahead
if we do not preserve the past first.
And as there are no E-F Walcker organ left with his mutation scheme....
Pierre
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Well, Justinf, do not over-estimate my tiny brain; mind you, in the room here
where I have the PC, there are about 1,000 books about the organ, and 24 big boxes
filled with notes, not to mention the Internet and the CDs (downstairs, those). Suffice
to bow towards the right file.
The true matter is: who will build the Mulhouse organ again first ?
To summarize: German romantic organ structure= huge Cornet with all imaginable
scales and pipe forms, mixed, after recipes which varies according to the acoustics the organ is
to cope with.
I mentionned Pedal = 32', Manuals = 16'.
This is of course an option; the real basis is 16' on the Pedal, 8' on the manuals, like
with every other kind of organ.
So the theoretical structure is:
MANUAL EINS
Quint 5 1/3'
Terz 3 1/5'
Cornet 5r (the usual 5 ranks from 8')
(Mixture with a 1 3/5' rank, breaking back on 3 1/5' towards the treble)
MANUAL ZWEI
Quint 5 1/3'
Cornet 5r (smaller scales as on I)
(Mixture with a 4/5' rank, breaking back to 1 3/5'))
MANUAL DREI
Quint 2 2/3'
Terz 1 3/5'
Cornet with breaks, starting in 4' or even in 2' on C (see Mulhouse)
(Scharf with a 2/5' rank on C, breaking back two times higher)
PEDAL
Grossquintbass 10 2/3'
Grossterzbass 6 2/5'
Sesquialterabass in 16', for example 3 1/5'-2 2/3'- 2'
Add now some reed stops to this, and you will see the spoke of Dom Bédos
shouting "Mais qu'avez vous fait de mon Grand-Jeu???"
(E-F Walcker had two books: a Bible, and "L'art du facteur d'orgues".)
Pierre
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It is because the aims are not the same; a Pedal Cornet is built and
voiced for resultant tones, so not to be heard for itself, while
a manual Cornet is very different in that respect, as indeed resultant tones
would be rather undesirable in the bottom octave of the manual compass.
It is for that reason E-F Walcker did not build manual 32' Cornets any more after the one he made
in his first big instrument for Frankfurt (1829-33).
The 32' belongs to the Pedal, the 16' to the manuals; 32' resultant tones on the manuals are
interesting only in the treble, but only some french baroque builders used them regularly
(Jean-Esprit Isnard, the Cliquots, and Jean de Joyeuse), in the "Fourniture".
E-F Walcker fine-tuned his harmonic concept in the course of his carreer, and ended up
with the Mulhouse (F) organ (1864), which is a case study of organ design, the archetype of a thourough
tonal architecture. (Would anyone build a new organ after german romantic lines, this would be
the Specifications to start with!)
See especially the Mixtures and the mutation stops, and how they are attributed
to the several departments:
I MANUAL
Principal 16'
Flauto major 16'
Montre 8'
Bourdon 8'
Viola di gamba 8'
Hohlflöte 8'
Gemshorn 8'
Quintatön 8'
Nasard 5 1/3'
Prestant 4'
Rohrflöte 4'
Flûte d'amour 4'
Terz 3 1/5'
Nasard 2 2/3'
Doublette 2'
Forniture(sic) 6r: 4(stopped), 2 2/3'(nasard),2', 1 3/5'(conical), 1 1/3',1'
Scharff 3r: 1', 4/5', 1/2'
Cornett 5r (à partir de g): 2', 1', 2/3', 1/2', 2/5'
Fagott 16'
Trompete 8'
Clairon 4'
II MANUAL
Bourdon 16'
Montre 8'
Bourdon 8'
Salicional 8'
Bifara 8'+4' (le 8' bouché, le 4' ouvert)
Nasard 5 1/3'
Prestant 4'
Rohrflöte 4'
Spitzflöte 4'
Sifflöte 2'
Forniture(sic)5r: 2 2/3', 2', 1 3/5', 1', 1'
Trompete 8' (plus douce que celle du I)
Fagott & Oboe 8' (anches libres)
Vox humana 8'
Corno 4' (jamais placé, remplacé par un Bassethorn 8')
III MANUAL (expressif)
Principalflöte 8'
Bourdon 8'
Concertflöte 8' (à deux bouches)
Aeoline 8'
Fugara 4'
Traversflöte 4'
Dolce 4'
Nasard 2 2/3'
Flageolett 2'
Bassethorn ou Clarinett 8'( en finale: Trompette harmonique 8')
Physharmonika 8' (force réglable via une pédale)
PEDAL
Grand Bourdon 32' (Bottom octave: Borrows Quinte 10 2/3' and Tierce 6 2/5'. The Tierce dropped at H. Quinte stops at fs, the rest = plain Bourdon 32')
Principalbass 16'
Subbass 16'
Violonbass 16'
Quintbass 10 2/3'
Octavbass 8'
Hohlflötenbass 8'
Violoncell 8'
Bourdon 8'
Terzbass 6 2/5'
Octavbass 4'
Flöte 2'
Bombardon 16' (résonateurs en......Zinc!)
Trompete 8'
Clairon 4'
II/I, III/II, I/P, II/P, III/P
Expression III
Expression Physharmonika
4 combinaisons fixes
Crescendo
This incredibly complete, thorough tonal structure is even mire impressive than Cavaillé-Coll's
in Notre-Dame, and it is more than a guess: Cavaillé-Coll tried to follow there !
Pierre
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The idea of the deep Pedal Cornet goes back to Eberhard Friedrich Walcker,
and was based on Ab Vogler theory about the resulting tones (but those
were known long before him by the organ-builders).
The main reason was to reinforce the 16' and 32' tone; the "reedy" effect
appears only in the higher part of the compass, and is at its most in 8'
on the manuals, provided the Cornet (or the seperate ranks) are voiced
to that end.
(W. Holtkamp Sr was in advance upon his time to the point he even tried, for example,
to introduce the "Kornettmixtur" after the Trost way!!! But his voicing methods were
still post-romantic. Hear how those Chamades sound like Tubas -happily!-)
Pierre
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St Botolph Aldgate organ. Warning: hazardous for neo-baroque ears!!!
Another authentically restored organ (there are three videos, automatically following):
Enjoy the music boxes !
Pierre
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Angermünde, again !!!!
Halas with some distortion in the beginning. But note, later, how closer
the Plenum is to a french "Grand-jeu" than to what we were told to believe
a true baroque plenum should be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEJNsuKsAHE
Pierre
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There are builders, and organs, from the 1950's, deserving fully the title of
"historic organs"; among them, there are the instruments built by Walter Holtkamp Sr
in the U.S.
Here is his 1957 organ in Christ Church Cathedral (OH):
Second video:
And here is a picture of the façade (Case? Which case ?)
http://homepage.mac.com/klugpro/ccorgan/gr...ns/CCfacade.jpg
There has been nothing more modern since then, we still wait for the next step.
Pierre
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The ancient english organ (before Cromwell) belonged to the Ripieno kind,
bevause their Principal chorus was splitted on seperate stops, every rank having
its slider. The basis was:
Open Diapason 8'
(Sometimes: a second one, which pipes were on another façade)
(Stopped Diapason 8')
Principal 4' (sometimes two as well)
Twelfth 2 2/3'
Fifteenth 2'
The stops being named (from the Quint) after the cypher corresponding to their height, as in
the italian organ.
The difference is the fact the italian organ had no Twelfth (in the bass!), and its rank went higher, with breaks
the ancient Diapason Chorus of course did not have.
The link between Northern Italy (one of the two main organ centres during the Renaissance,
the second one being the Brabant) and Britain courd have been the Burgundy.
This Ripieno kind of organ is the most polyphonic among all organ styles, and certainly emerged
from the polyphonic music of the Renaissance period. Coumpond Mixtures, whose ranks break
togheter on the same note, where rather made for Power -at least an apparent one- like the
Blockwerk they are a remains of.
A beautiful video featuring an authentic italian Ripieno registration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Jw5zdFw6GI
Pierre
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Thanks, with this we already have something to start searching.
Pierre
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A member of the french forum had a recording since years,
on a cassette, which referencies are as follows:
Newport Boys’ Choir, dir Michael Landers
“The Newport Boys’ Choir at St. John’s”
(cassette; Alpha CAPS 392)
J Hughes, B Britten, M Landers, PJ Hurford, C Symons
Halas this little thing has been lost, and now that our member
leads a choir, he would be quite interested to find it again,
under any form that it might be (Cassette, CD, MP3...)
Does anyone know about it ?
Pierre
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The Toccata prima by Muffat on the Klosterneuburg organ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEvt24CCbdI...feature=related
Pierre
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I have a good reason to re-launch this thread by an example
of an interesting rescue of a british organ, this time not by moving it
outside the UK: the organ of St-Mary de Lode church in Gloucester.
This "music box" has had more chance than some others in that area,
as it was restored in a quite interesting manner, withouth "playing games",
with the aim to go as far back possible towards an original state, but without
w......rising anything in case of doubt, completing the scheme in order to fit
what exists.
The organ is believed to have started life as a one-manual one, and it displays
features that are so tipically english that not only you won't find them outside
the english-speaking countries, but you will rarely find people outside those countries
who know that they exist: namely, the Swell organ -completely unknown outside
Britain up to 1840 or even later- and the Sesquialtera-Cornet as only Mixture
( Never seen on the continent, save some "Mixtur-Cornet" in little organs from
Joachim Wagner, for example).
I could hear it trough Ian Ball's new CD, "Wondrous Machine!" IFBCD 001, obtainable
by Ian Ball himself or Adrian Lucas, who produced and edited it.
The Specifications is as follow:
GREAT (GG, AA to f3)
Open Diapason 8' (rather large for such an organ, maybe modified, they did not know so left it alone)
Stopped Diapason 8'
Principal 4'
Fifteenth 2' (No Twelfth!)
Sesquialtera bass 1 3/5'- 1 1/3'- 1' (Aha, Father Willis, where are you???) Cornet 3 r treble (both new, and bold)
Trumpet (from middle C) 8' (with very very few rattle, clear but little in common with a french one)
Swell to Great
SWELL (Tenor F up to f3)
Open Diapason 8' (gentle, moderate scales, sounds sometimes like a Salicional on the CD)
Stopped Diapason 8'
Principal 4'
Hautboy 8' (again, nothig to compare with an "Hautbois" or a german "Oboe)
Hitsch-down Swell Pedal
PEDAL (C to f)
Bourdon 16' (the existing one was replaced with a more coherent one from the same period as the organ)
Great to Pedal.
On the CD Ian Ball choosed to present us with an ecclectic programme, with the obvious aim to demonstrate
such an organ "can play lots of repertoire", and it works. This organ colors all music with its own -strong- personnality
-it is unusual NEVER to hear the sempiternal Dupré-told-it-was-the-only-good-true-one Quint Mixture with 8, 4 and 2 (only one of each please!) would-be-"baroque" Principal chorus, in a whole CD.
But this is an excellent therapy, and one could advise this organ to many organists as a desintoxication program.
There are many such "Sesquialtera-Cornet" documented as sole Mixture in late-baroque british organs, and now, thanks to this restauration and this CD, Anyone can understand why.
Let us now hope the same commitment will be applied to others british organs from any period, whatever their
make, their actions, their wind-pressure, and and and!
Pierre
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A presentation of a wonderfull Snetzler organ in the U.S.:
Note the Diapason chorus.....
Pierre
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Praetorius also warned against "rattling" Regals.
He insisted on the shallots to be leathered. Dont acte...
(Confer "de Organographia")
Pierre
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OOPS! That's us completely in the bin then!
DW
And, and, and.....Save who ?
Pierre
Italian organs
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
I feared precisely this.
I wrote: "before "judging", remember, all things
authentic are surprising".
The ancient music we know today represents less than 10% of what existed.
Among the 90% which remains, there are much things that are too "spicey"
for our aseptised tastes, and this, not only in Italy of course.
We are still, by far, more influenced by the victorian period than we believe it.
When presented with historic material, it might be interesting to think
"If I were there at this time, it is probable I would do the same thing,
so what ? Let us think again". The alternative is to get rid of the History
at all, and then, condemn oneself to re-write it. Any takers ?
Pierre