Pierre Lauwers

Is there already an "Arthur Harrison" Rose variety ? Pierre

The "Full Swell" in many british organs is something unheard of -and indeed never heard- on the continent. It is indeed a chorus, but not a "pure" one, because it is made with differing families of stops (like, by the way, the organs Bach played!). The example of St-Paul London is spectacular, and may serve as a case study; there, the 16-8-4 reeds+ a three ranks Cornet are enough to supersede any french Récit. The french Récit is louder than the british one when closed. Then, it produces a big "frying sausage" effect with its more "rattling" reeds. Rather than a muted sound, it conveys an impression of restrained power, "I could eat you alive if...". Once open, the reeds -as always- dominate anything else save the occasionnal Carillon. In Worcester, the brick Swell was impressive for its dynamic range; from a mere whisper to a thunder -those reeds were something rather special indeed-. Do not expect to find anything like that elsewhere. Those "Full Swells" belonged to the second Manual after the Great; here, again, the continental Récit/ Schwellwerk is the third manual in importance. The answer to the Great was rather the Positif, and, in Germany, with Abschwächungsprinzip organs whose manuals wore only numbers, the Schwellwerk was the Manual III. The St-Paul Full Swell, with its reed chorus and Cornet, is technically a "Grand-jeu". Dom Bédos would have recognized it as such. Walcker and Cavaillé-Coll organs are bigs "Grand-jeux" as a whole. In Britain, you need the Swell to Great coupler to get that, but you still have a "pure" Diapason chorus available on the I, though not without the reeds whenever the Mixture(s) is (are) drawn. One cannot have all. Pierre

High pressure reeds in a french organ ? Where are they? I would be very happy to learn about any ! Pierre

YES!!!!! Welcome back, Cynic. Pierre

"One characteristic which has been fairly consistent from 1815ish to now is the English releationship between Swell and Great, which is as unique as, say, French classical GO and Recit. " (Quote) And here we enter into the matter ! There are others points... Pierre

Here, again, we drift towards utilitarism-pragmatism; interesting with projects of limited scope for money-deprived churches, but we won't create a style with it. Maybe an other viewpoint might be interesting: What do you think customers from abroad would want from a british builder ? Pierre

Anyway, at least, the argumentation used to sale the idea of a new organ could have been printed 10,000 times, and issued regularly since about 1500, whenever "needed"; Standard operating procedure, standardized claims. Pierre

By the way, this is absolutely stunning: Thanks for that ! And of course should you want to revisit TC Lewis style, go on, we won't argue ! Pierre

"What on earth is Pierre doing in Nova Scotia? " (Quote) As I wrote: I am trying to keep my head on my shoulders, while the locals seem to think it should be better somewhat apart. Pierre

The very existence of this thread is quite interesting; you will never find anything like that on a french or german forum, as everyone there never questionned the fact there was, is, and will be, local styles of their own, despite the globalization of the culture. But does this mean the english/ british Orgellandschaft to be actually poorer than the continental ones ? And/or less interesting/ valuable/ worth ? Should someone who never went to Britain read this Discussions board, he could well be lead to that conclusion; same with much british litterature, among which W-L Sumner is an excellent example. There is, and always have been, something like a "we're just a little island" Mantra, despite the incredible historic achievments of the Empire, and this, even while this very empire ruled a third of the entire world -Globalization ? Anything new ?-. The history of the british organ is actually incredibly rich, varied, and extremely well documented compared with others interesting ones (think of the iberic peninsulae for example, for which we have near to nothing). But fact is, those riches were obtained with much borrowings from abroad: France, the Netherlands, Flanders, Southern Germany, central Germany, Spain/ Portugal, they all contributed to the various british organ styles in the course of time. But if a german would recognize, in Armley for example, an indisputably german organ, he would certainly not do with the very next step, that is, the "Schulze Diapason choruses" built in imitation by the british organ-builders. The thing was immediately integrated in the british manner. Because here it is: one might say " there are fewer interesting british repertoire than the continental ones", but, above all, there is a british way of "making music", regardless of the origin of the paper sheet the conductor uses. Take the Saint-Saëns mass of Donald Hunt I linked to yesterday on the "Youtube" thread. If we give the score a "table study", we must quickly recognize it is actually, from a musical point of view, a rather poor thing. It was composed at 18 years old by Saint-Saëns, as his fourth work; this is nothing else as a youth exercise, largely inspired by the Messe royale by Dumont of which one might say it is a "remake". And though, be sure nobody on the continent never heard this work like Mr Hunt made it sound -and actually, a vast majority of the continentals never even heard of it. So this interpretation is at least as british as it is french; it is a re-creation in a way that is unquestionnably british. But then in Wo'ster, at the time I went there on a somewhat regular basis, the people said they made french music. French??? Really ??? So we have here a malentendu from the start. The same with the very limitations of the historic organs. The baroque british organ was despised because "you cannot play Bach with this music-box with no Pedals". Aside to the fact one cannot expect to play a "fully correct" Bach anywhere outside central Germany, for obvious reasons that exist with any other composer from any area and period, it was also forgetting the fact those limitations existed in a vast majority of the continental styles as well; in Flanders, the Netherlands and Germany, there were much little organs with no Pedals as well. Today the trend -the tradition?- of "look abroad what they do" continues, and this, while in that very "abroad" the interest for the british romantic organ is ever rising. What we on the continent learnt those last decades is the fact one cannot go further in the evolution if you cannot built on a complete historic basis; that is, you won't create a sound new organ design if you do not have examples of what preceeded you. Or you will ever re-invent the wheel. We need the complete film before writing the next chapter, and that means for the organ: we must be reconciliated with all organ styles from all periods, and restore examples of them. If you are still with me, this means, in (poor) english, this: In order to be able to create a really modern, sound british organ style, you first need a reconciliation with the complete historical set, Music-box-with-no-Pedals and Hope-Jones included. With my very best wishes ! Pete (from New Scotland, fighting to keep his head on his shoulders in the local Highlands)

Saint-Saëns was a great composer, and he is still underrated; if you want more, I'd rather try this: http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=5HVaVpcfExI&...feature=related Pierre

The legendary recording of the "Messe à quatre voix" Opus 4 from Camille Saint-Saëns in Worcester, 1979, is now available on Youtube: http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=FuLu3CsdK0Q&...&feature=BF The Kyrie: http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=VZOD-qcMQAk&...&feature=BF The Sanctus: http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=P08bFAZN0_0&...&feature=BF O Salutaris: http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=oARhMfvIEnI&...&feature=BF Agnus Dei: http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=FuLu3CsdK0Q&...&feature=BF (Halas the MP3 does not justice to the splendid organ it was at that time). Pierre

This very idea is exactly what we began to think in Belgium since about 2000. Welcome to the 21st Century, an Epoch that will maybe be saved by the ability to doubt about ourselves. Pierre

Simply ask him to rebuild it ! as the firm is still there, without any historical break, there should obtain no problem to put Harrison's organs back in order. Pierre

There is the important historic organ of Nidaros Cathedral, Trondheim, built by Joachim Wagner: http://www.echo-organs.org/Nidaros-Wagner.211.0.html Pierre

There is also this one, by André Isoir at the Weingarten organ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JyFP-s_ZQc (in the conventionnal way!) Pierre

As no organ is perfect, be it "historical" or not, there will always be critics, whatever would be done. We already discussed that particular organ; there are several possible ways to go in that case without sacrifice of any historical "Substanz". Pierre

Genau, Mr Kropf, That period is one of the richest, fast-moving in the history of the organ. The approximate period is: 1890-1930. From the dissepearing of the leaders of the 19th century to the spread of the Orgelbewegung worldwide. Cavaillé-Coll, Willis I, E-F Walcker etc were gone, their successors could innovate without having to fear them any more ! And as E-M Skinner wrote, the modern organ actions had removed the limitations in organ design, enabling more creativity. This is what I call (with my teacher Jean-Pierre Felix) the "Post-romantic" organ. Those organs display a wide variety of experimental styles, from Hope-Jones to the first neo-baroque organs (1921!). Today, if we happen to encounter such an organ in original state, it convinces most of us...An Arthur Harrison, a late Sauer, an Oscar Walcker from before 1930, A Willis III, or indeed an E-M Skinner; nobody would still advise to get rid of such an organ. (save maybe some british patients ?) Halas, already during that period, some people had a dream: to invent new rules and enforce them in order to get their place in the History. And so one of the experimental, post-romantic styles won the game: the "Neo". With the incredible, but true, fact that 1960 Mixtures, for example, still had more in common with E-M Skinner's than with true baroque ones... The organ you are in charge of today sits right between those two periods, and, as such, has a strong historical significance. Pierre

.....And not only in Germany. It seems Straube had another kind of organ in mind than the german one when he laid his registrations out, especially in the ppp, where he used systematically the swellbox while the german organ of the period provided splendid soft stops aplenty.... Pierre

Thanks, Karsten ! Pierre

This is exactly the kind of music one heard in all churches in Belgium round 1900, when the Voix céleste stop-handles often were stick open for being never put off ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFLkClW7MfI...feature=related Pierre

Heinz Wunderlich in a Reger fugue on the Berliner Dom Sauer organ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMM7x3qUm34 Floppy pneumatic action, muddy tones ? Hear for yourselves ! Pierre

"the Trombas were packed away and they are still within the curtilage if the Cathedral " (Quote) It is to be hoped they are stocked properly. Because they will be wanted again in the years to come. If they are not sold to the continent in the meantime. Pierre

Just to show how sweet a northern german baroque organ can be when properly used: Pierre

Even with a dutch organ, even in the Kunst der Fuge, one can register in a way that refer to the rich colors of the organs Bach knew: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2swVtqsXjo Pierre