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Pierre Lauwers

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Everything posted by Pierre Lauwers

  1. "I played it my way at Armley" (Quote) Aaaargh ! Pierre
  2. Going back for a moment to the northern organ, I sometimes feel disconfortable with the way they are registred today, and found an example here: ....Though this is a superb organ, beautifully played, I am convinced that Sesquialter or Terzian was never intended to be used that way. Or Schnitger was going deaf like Beethoven... Pierre
  3. As we evoke Böhm on another thread, here is his "Vater unser" played by my friend Luc Devos on a belgian historic organ from...1866. Yes; hear for yourself the kind of organs that were still built here then: Pierre
  4. See here for the Hamburg organ: http://www.arpschnitger.nl/shamb.html The organ has four manuals, with three "Postivs", among which there is actually one tonal structure splitted between two manuals. Schnitger took ancient material over from a previous organ, which had already four manuals. (The "Hinterwerk" was already known at that time, by the way...) Pierre
  5. So weit, so gut. Let us then see the Specifications of the Lüneburg organ when Bach knew it: RÜCKPOSITIV, Principal 8' Quintaden 8' Octave 4' Hohlflöte 4' Sieflöte 1' Sesquialtera Mixtur Scharff Regal 8' Baarfeiffe 8' Schalmey 4' WERCK, Principal 16' Octave 8' Octave 4' Nachthorn 2' (basse) Mixtur Scharff Trommette 8' (basse) Cornette 2' (basse) OBERWERCK, Principal 8' Hohlflöte 8' Octave 4' Nasat 3' Superoctave 2' Cymbel Trommette 8' PEDAL Untersatz 16' (not full compass...) The Pedal was permanently coupled to the Werck by pull downs. Independent, "Werkprinzipisierter Pedal " ? Ach, so !!! (As you said, Böhm had a new Pedal division built.....After Bach's time there) Now another point. It seems the "modern late-Baroque Pedal" does indeed not always work for Bach. Here is a Video from Altenburg which might be interesting to illustrate the point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXQgeCq0QhE ....Here, we have a slight problem, oder ? But here, the Pedal is piccobello to the point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ2pZgMSMUI...feature=related Pierre
  6. "if Bach was (one of) the first to use the Pedal as a suboctave division, where does this leave the Werkprinzip? I always thought that one of its aims was to provide clear octave distinctions between the various divisions (or is this a neo-Baroque misunderstanding?)" (Quote) The organ evolved incredibly fast precisely during Bach's career, and precisely in his area; to the point the central german organ took over the leadership in tonal design upon the north afterwards. The Pedal went from one role to another: the "Cantus firmus Pedal", with high-pitched soloists, was replaced by a "Bass Pedal", with less high-pitched stops and more deep-pitched ones. As for the Werkprinzip, as I already wrote, this was completely foreign to the organs Bach played. The organs built in his area during his time did not even have a Rückpositiv save if there were a previous case to be re-used, while the Pedal division was at the back... Pierre
  7. ......And I guess it would even suit Bach better than a Schnitger. The Specifications can be found here towards the middle of the page: http://reliwiki.nl/index.php?title=Gorinch..._7_-_Grote_Kerk Pierre
  8. There is mine, which deals in french with organs from the whole world: http://organographia.cultureforum.net/ Pierre
  9. If you want an "all-purpose organ", this was done here in 1853, and I doubt we did better since: http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Ccf5jBalE Pierre
  10. Yes ! Trost's (an the others) reeds stops are very like Schnitger's. This is a point where the differencies between northern and central german organs is little. But there were fewer reeds stops in Thuringian organs than in Schnitgers; especially, the Regals were seldom save the Vox humana. The "Hautbois" (under differing writings like "hauboi" etc) was a kind of Schalmey, somewhere between the Regal and the modern Hautbois or Oboe. According to Boxberg's description of the Casparini organ of Görlitz, it was a chorus stop, not a soloist. Very fundamental tone, indeed, with wood resonators and leathered shallots. (Addenda): It is worthy of note, though, that Gottfried Silbermann introduced french reeds in the area. Joachim Wagner took those stops over, and built rather "frenchy" trumpets and Vox humanas, which correspond to the french standards; a "Grand jeu" can be made in Angermünde, for instance. Hear on this page the "Klangbeispiel" towards the middle of the page: http://www.angermuender-sommerkonzerte.de/wagner_orgel.htm Pierre
  11. The source is my experience in Situ. If you go there and try the organs, this becames soon obvious; the only real reed chorus you can find in those organs is on the Pedal; it goes from a 16' alone up to 32-16-8-4-2 (in the north). And they orvershadow the flues, in proportion, like in a romantic organ. On the manuals it is the reverse: the reeds never overtake the flue choruses. Have a trip there ! Pierre
  12. When, in a german baroque organ, you draw the 16' Posaune, no flue stop is to be heard any more, be them one or five. So the obvious way is to shut them whenever the reeds are used. Pierre
  13. "The chorus mixtures invariably include Tierces, in the 4' series in the bass but breaking back to the 16' series in the treble - yes - you'll find a 3 1/5 tierce in the Great mixture of even quite a modest 2 manual Trost." (Quote) .....And you will find just that in many others organs in that area, not only Trosts. And why ? Because the 8' tierce rank is in the Sesquialtera ! the Mixture "goes round the Sesquialtera", which is mandatorily drawn before the Mixture. Dura Lex.... Pierre
  14. Indeed, there are not many. First example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz6MlY3MVQ0...feature=related Another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CALzxblaOQ...feature=related Quite interesting registration here too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAGMogLQm1M...feature=related ....And also here. The crispness, the accuracy, the clarity, you need them in the foundation stops or nothing else will provide it. Demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjsZ9NDCHwo...feature=related .....And this remains true with rapid tempis, where there is no need for Schreinendwerk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7PdxPjtZRE...feature=related Pierre
  15. The Mixtures in Naumburg sound rather modern to my ears... Pierre
  16. I agree with MM about the playing. The registration could be more imaginative by far with this organ, but this would be immediately questionned by the "Mixture all the way long" theology.... As for the tierce Mixtures: 1)- Bach had precisely that, and only that, at hand with 90% of the organs he played in the area he lived in 90% of his lifetime. This was the normal Mixture scheme in that area, save with Silbermann (trained in France) and some "Ripieno" on secondary manuals in certain organs (Casparini pupils, Scheibe...) 2)- I agree they are tiresome if used too longly. But those strong stops were never intended to be used the way we do now ! As I said, there are plenty of alternatives for a P&F in a Trost organ. One would never draw, on a romantic organ, the strongest stops (Trumpets, Tromba, Tuba...) all the way through a 10' piece, agreed ? In a Trost organ the (only two!) Mixtures are the very last thing one has to draw, they are even stronger than the few chorus reed stops. They are meant for climaxes, or a short Prelude. I cannot imagine Bach would have used them for ten minutes at a time. "Perhaps not a zillion miles away from Schnitger pedal reeds, with their leather faced shallots." (Quote) Yes, agreed ! all the reed stops I could examine there have leathered shallots, but usually only in the bass. "Would I travel to hear this organ?" (Quote) I think you should. But then, you should be allowed to try for yourself, at lenght, to registrate and play it in a way that would suit your own musical sense. I believe the results could be interesting... Pierre
  17. So weit, so gut; here is the Specifications of an organ which works extremely well in Bach's P&Fs with only 30 stops: http://www.die-orgelseite.de/disp/D_Angermuende_StMarien.htm There is a tierce rank in the Scharff (HPTW), while the Quinta and Tertia of the OW can be added to the Principal chorus. Video: ....But this registration does not tell us all: the organ presents a wide palette of alternatives in those P&Fs. As absolutely all combinations work -you can draw blindly whatever stops and it works-, you could try, for example, a mini-Grand jeu (Trompet+Kornett), a 8-8-4, a 8-8-4-2, a Principal 8' + Flute 4' or a Bourdon 8' + Principal 4'...There is just enough chiff to get a fine articulation so that all styles of playing are possible, Legato included; no "Tschack-tschack" to be feared then. This is one of the best organs I know for Bach -and per se-. Pierre
  18. "What do the more disscerning amonst you think??" (Quote) As I am of course not among them, I shall let them discuss over the merits of this organ in Bach's music, and keep my tongue in cheek, he he he.... Pierre
  19. Kein Problem, MM, any contradictions & discussions are welcome ! "The more serious question musically, is to ask WHY Bach's music translates so well to such a wide variety of instruments, and indeed, to such a wide variety of organs." (Quote) My two Cents: Besides the huge value of the music itself, which will percolate through any instrumental means because of its quality: -The central and southern german baroque organs became the models to be followed towards the end of the 18th century. It "took the north over", and became the basis upon which the romantic organ evolved. (Central: Jehmlich, Ladegast, Schulze... Southern: Walcker). -And as all romantic organs worldwide were deeply influenced by this german development (Where do you think Cavaillé-Coll's "Viole de Gambe" came from ?), it is not surprising Bach's music can cope with them, and, to a certain degree, what followed, though I personnaly believe the neo-baroque organs do not fit that music. Here is an interesting example of how Bach goes upon an early Walcker organ, that is, like a hand in a glove -up to tierce Mixture-: .....It is interesting to compare that with a crude, "village" thuringian organ (built byVolkland): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV8qfMJew1I .....As for the "romantic foundation stops", here are authentic baroque ones to be heard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovFjxHj7PxE...feature=related Sorry, but this is genuine "Bach sound", and it is still available.... As for why Bach "goes better" on a romantic organ than Howells on a Trost, the half of the question is answered above, while it is evident it is easier to leave a swell pedal and a Crescendo Pedal alone than to have to imitate them with mechanical, heavy stop handles.... Pierre
  20. 1)- What means "best" ? 2)- So we should know how it sounded, an then do whatever ? The end result can only be: all electronic. Nein, Danke ! Pierre
  21. "So I have to suggest that any sort of historical or stylistic straight-jacket may well be counter productive and possibly inartistic, because once the performer is compelled to do this or that, we take the music out of one era and place it in another." (Quote) What I understand from this: 1)- It is uninteresting to study the organs Bach actually played; 2)- The organs Bach played were not the "good" ones, because we think he belonged to another era and place than his own one. Which one ? We decide. Am I wrong ? Pierre
  22. Ah, the Pedal Mixture Mantra ! Some hints: -The independant Pedal Mixtures were a northern feature. In the area where Bach lived 90% of his lifetime, save in the biggest Silbermanns (the little Silbermann had often just a few stops, 16-8 flues + 16 reed), there were either no Pedal Mixture, or it was borrowed from the great (this is the case with Scheibe and Trost). As an example, here is the Specifications of the Pedal in the Leipzig Scheibe organ Bach praised so much: PEDAL Gross Principal-Bass 16' (Borrowed from HPTW) Gross Quinta-Tön-bass 16'(HPTW) Sub-bass 16' Octav-bass 8' (HPTW) Jubal-Bass 8' Nacht-Horn-Bass 8' Gross-Hell-Quintbass 6' Octav Bass 4' (HPTW) Quint-Bass 3' (HPTW) Octav-Bass 2' Holl-Flöten-Bass 1' Mixtur-Bass 6r (HPTW) Posaunen-Bass 16' Trompeten-Bass 8' It is interesting to note we have here the "new style" Pedal, with a bias towards deep tones, and the "old style" as well (Cantus firmus, also with high-pitched stops), togheter. As Bach belonged to both styles, we may suppose this scheme might be interesting...) Pierre
  23. Dear Martin, At the point we are now, that is, mid-2010, I think an interesting way to question Bach's registration would be a tour in Saxe and Thuringia, plus the Brandenburg (because of the Joachim Wagner organs) with your pile of music scores. And play the organs, the village's ones included: the Trosts, the Wagners, but also the others, less well-known ones. (I suggested just that to some belgian organists, the result was a change in their practice. I already wrote here about that matter, but nothing can replace one's own discoveries). And finally, to make your own religion with it. Pierre
  24. This organ ranks very, very high on my "top-list"; one of the very finest we have. I cross my fingers. There, I would have changed nothing. Not a nail, nor the (thin) cushions of the chairs. Maybe not even their color ! Pierre
  25. "I cannot help but think that once one tampers with the original scheme everything starts to come "out of joint". " (Quote) YES ! (Whatever this original scheme may be). Pierre
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