Colin Harvey

So refined was the taste in England at the time that there was quite a lot of dislike of those "coarse and uncouth instruments" they had on the continent, like Haarlem, for example. Dreadfully loud thing. Green were so much sweeter and cultured. The reaction reminds me a bit of the reaction to the RFH organ in the '50s - RWV asserting that the best Bach was played by Harold Darke at St Michaels Cornhill, etc. Wasn't the term "Werkprinzip" coined in the 1920s and 1930s at the beginning of the organ reform movement? And I believe that ne plus ultra of werkprinzip organs, Arp Schnitger's masterpiece at the Hamburg Jacobikircke, has the overwerk situated 18 inches above the Haupwerk and behind it? I love the simplicity of aesthetic the Werkprinzip idea brings and I love the concepts of it - like Peter Williams assertion of the Innsbruck Hofkircke illustrating the difference of pitch being more important (?) than tone or dynamic between divisions of the organ. So, is the Jacobikircke werkprinzip? Or do we just see some elements of the style we invented in the 1920s which we can apply to something made in 1694?

The tradition is that English organs of that period were voiced quick and dull (no chiff). Pipe metal tends to be very thin. there was an interest in "sweetness" of sound. Green used tiny scales in his upperwork and the sound was distinctly unpowerful - more a box of whistles than thunder. Even an organ like St Mary at Hill produces little more power than a chamber organ. But a very refined sound. Get a recording of Bermondsley to get an idea of what they sound like. Bishop 1829, which suffered a little alteration in 1877 and subsequent neglect before restoration to original state in 2003.

Very Interesting. Also interesting to note that some older organs also speak quite slowly - there's not much chiff at Alkmaar. And Reger sounds fabulous at Alkmaar and Harlem - and I guess Naumberg too (whose strings speak really quite slowly, too). Also interesting to notice the attack of pipes on Skinner organs on Pitman chests, too! Wasn't it T.C.Lewis who said the art of voicing pipes was to make them speak slowly without the organist realising they were speaking slowly?

A few thoughts on all of this: * Because of the rather explosive nature of pneumatic and e-p actions opening pallets, the voicing of the pipes has to be set slower (and hence hornier) than set with pipes over tracker action, which speak quicker and duller. That's the real reason why pneumatics or e-p actions seem slower to respond than tracker actions (given the action is functioning correctly). A few thoughts spring from this: * We've got the chicken and egg argument with slow speaking romantic organs with pneumatic action. Which came first - the pneumatic action or the desire for slow speach? * It's the reason why changing the action changes the sound the pipes make, usually with poor results. Pipes regulated for tracker action have to have their speech reset (slower and hornier) and pipes regulated for pneumatic action need to be made quicker if they're put on tracker action. * There are many factors affecting the touch and weight of tracker action - the strength of the pallet spring, design of the pallet (affecting pluck), bushing (to an extent), how well set up the action is. To be quite honest, I find this pre-occupation on tracker weight to be a bit of a red herring. Yes, there are inertia effects, but we also need to consider the weight of the keys, pallets, backfalls, etc. And the focus should be on "an agreeable weight" rather than "a light weight"! I remember seeing a modern trackers in action and being rather alarmed by the amount of movement and deflection side to side. Surely the things need a bit of rigidity to give a direct touch, otherwise we may as well use string.

Hi Tony, I don't think I quite understand what you mean. Can you explain what you mean here? Excellent point!

Yes- if I'm playing an unfamiliar large organ, I like to have some kind of standard "formula" to manage the beast... All organs are different, of course, but large ones with buttons can be made less different.... I've noticed H&H have used the "hidden drawer" method, where there is a drawer hidden underneath the "table" on which the manuals, stop jambs etc are mounted. I think it was first used to re-use the pull-out drawers at the Usher hall and used since at places like Armley. It's a neat idea and doesn't compromise old consoles like adding stepper and scope controls above the uppermost console, which does rather detract from the amibance of an historic console...

Would this be Romsey Abbey, by any chance? I can't remember what those pedals did last time I played - but I guess it makes sense if they can switch between gens and dpts. V. nice organ, though. Perfect, really.

Well, in most country parish churches in this country, you've usually got this little old man or woman playing on voix celeste, flute and oboe (their favourite and only combination), ocassional pedal note at the end of the hymn, no sense of rhythm. Usually, the blazer comes from M&S rather than Gieves - normally with some crest on the front pocket - and the shoes are clarks rather than churches. They wrestle their way through the voluntaries and everyone is mightly relieved when each hymn finally comes to a finish at -1 mph, having endured consistent and extreme rallentando since line 2 as the organist fumbles their way through the last verse extravaganza from their book.

Interesting to hear your comments, Heva. You don't find any problems with your heels not having enough space? I remember having to stretch quite a lot on some 18 & 19th Century organs in holland to reach the extremities of the pedalboard. Some of them are BIG! I don't know how you guys cope with big modern romantic organs without divisionals. Re. console Standards - I know the RCO set up some standards for placement of the pedalboard, dimensions, etc. THey're a range of measurements but I think the only people who really used them were HN&B - so after your 1905 Hill. There are also the ISOB standards, which intersect with the RCO standards at the upright/baroque stance end of the RCO standards...

Hi Pierre, You make a very good point. In real life, yes, extension, etc would all be allowed and there is good reason and precedent from all schools of organ building (thinking of Harris and Byfield stops by communcation between Gt and Ch in this country) for it. But this is a purely academic paper exercise, and it needs clearly defined boundaries. If we start to blur them, then we open the floodgates and end up with a 15 stop organ very quickly. Sorry to be so anal - I'm not always like this (only about 93% of the time). I'll allow a cymbelstern, if you must, David.

Surprised but delighted by these results. I'm beginning to feel thoroughly vindicated. Keep up the voting!! If someone prefers R/C pedalboards, I'd be interested to know why! I'm beginning to wonder why have they have become such a de-facto standard in this country.

Well, some very interesting schemes developing! I find the flexibility and variety of something as dull as 8 & 4 principals and 8 & 4 flutes can give a lot of subtly different colour if the pipes are designed to work with each other. I think I'd have a 4' flute before a celeste, but that's just me. I'd try something like a tremulant first. One thing I've noticed about quite a lot of these schemes is the desire for some 16' tonality on the manuals. I can quite understand it in larger buildings but perhaps they would be a little overbearing in smaller rooms? Pierre's scheme - I find it very interesting and you could probably do loads with it, and wow, a zauber flote within 10 stops. Sorry, that should be 12 stops. I would be interested to see how a 3 1/5 pitch works in the smaller church - it could be inflexible - but it's a noble sound in a larger space. I agree an 8' bass flute is very, very useful. But not vital. I know I've cheated long enough in trios coupling the pedal through to one of the manuals (normally the LH) and only on a very few notes does it give any problems. But yes, yet to come across a bourdon that works by itself. And yes, extension and borrowing isn't allowed either. But I'd be interested to hear about Musing Muso's scheme if he can bear to part with just one stop...

After a conversation of pedalboard preferences at the weekend, I would be interested to know what design of pedalboard people prefer.

Dear all, We've had posts before on ideas for a 2 manual 20 stop scheme and on a 2 manual, 38 stop scheme, which until then, I thought only existed in the realms of electronic organs. I thought it would be more testing to go the other way and design a really small organ. The same conditions apply: 1. the organ must be designed for maximum versatility performing organ repertoire. 2. The organ can have a maximum of 10 speaking stops only (e.g. excluding tremulants and couplers). I will disqualify any that have 1 stop more. 3. The organ should be over 2 manuals and pedals unless you can justify otherwise. 4. The purpose of the organ is for a small chapel with a strong music department. The organ is expected to accompany the excellent choir, accompany the congregation and perform organ repertoire by a very competent organist. The chapel - for the sake of argument - can seat 140 people in pews in collegiate fashion. Appox dimensions 60ft by 25 ft by 20 feet high at the apex of the ceiling. The room is reverberant for the size of room. The organ is situated at ground level at the west end of the chapel, speaking down the main axis. Here's a scheme to get us started. It is based on a very similar situation at Twyford Prep School. The organ is a hybrid Walker/Burton of 1870/1895. Burton was a local builder based in Winchester - very traditional Victorian builder working on a small scale. No great shakes but quite servicable stuff most of the time. The organ has just been restored by Walkers without alteration. Great Organ Open Diapason 8 Stopt Diapason 8 Principal 4 Stopt flute 4 Fifteenth 2 Swell Organ Violin Diapason 8 Gemshorn 4 Mixture II (19.22) Trumpet 8 Pedal Organ Bourdon 16 Swell to Great Great to Pedal This organ is a lovely example of Multum in Parvo. Both Diapason chorus come alive and contrast nicely with each other in music by Bach, Buxtehude, etc. There is plenty of variety on the Great organ combining 8s and 4s for Romantic music, with the swell organ behind in the traditional English Romantic fashion. The Swell organ violin diapason either works as the basis for the chorus or a quiet string under expression. The trumpet is small scale and bridges the gap between a chorus reed for full organ and a solo stop - either as a trumpet or an oboe. I played this organ and was fully aware I was dealing with a "full-size" organ which could do nearly everything bretheren twice it size could do, rather than a scaled-up practice organ. I was very impressed by this organ's flexibility, range and ability to give a very fine performance of music from all periods, renaissance, baroque, romantic, modern. Music written for very big organs was not really appropriate for the chapel but it could handle just about anything else. Any other schemes people can think of?

Being in this area, there's no excuse for me saying no. So if I'm free be happy to tag along. Colin

Awww, s***. I'm going to an evening of Egyptology given by Nicole Doeuk, which is in aid of the organ fund at nearby Twyford tonight. It's all happening around here!! Romsey should be fantastic - great musician, great organ, fabulous building and I have no doubt great music. I'll send round a reminder email to people I know will be interested. Have a good time. Alternatively, if you fancy some respite from organs, nearby at 7.30, St Mary the Virgin, Twyford (hampshire) - a talk on Egyptology by one of the leading experts. £10 at the door, all proceeds to Twyford organ fund.

Jeez!! A bit garish...

Absolutely agree. This is what I did to get work started at my church to sort out the organ: first off, I got together with the tuner and the dioscean organ advisor (Jeffery Williams, who, incidentally was organist at Romsey Abbey) to look at the organ and identify its faults. I then wrote to the church steering group (ministry team, churchwardens, PCC treasurer and PCC secretary) explaining we had problems with the organ. We had a meeting and decided (on my suggestion) to get an Independant Organ Advisor to look at the organ and suggest what the options were to fix it. Through the AIOA, we comissioned Stephen Bicknell to inspect the organ and report on it, outline the options and recommend the best way forward. Stephen agreed with our feeling that the organ needed work. We set up a comittee to look into the options further and communicate the project through the church. I presented this report to the PCC and the Church AGM, where the church decided to go ahead with Stephen's recommendations for reconstructing the organ in its original state. We then went out to a tender process for the work, with Stephen acting as consultant. From a shortlist, we decided on a builder and the PCC accepted their proposals. We then started fundraising in earnest - having the proposal helped a lot so people knew what they were contributing to. When we reached a certain point in the fundraising, we signed the contract for the organ and work started in earnest on the organ. Hope this helps.... I don't think it's a good idea to get the builders to recommend ideas at the first stage. firstly, they may not be getting paid and I feel it's taking unfair advantange of them; also you don't have a clear brief to give them and a clear idea of your budget. We had Walkers visit pretty much univited at an early stage, who put together a scheme that didn't attact me at all (since it didn't really fix any of the problems with the organ and just introduced a few new ones) and it eventually found itself in the waste paper bin - partly because it was a bad scheme and partly because I hadn't yet been able to set up the provision in the church to consider it.

I thought it was one of the best Last nights for some time. The highlights for me were Andreas Scholl and John Williams - they somehow managed to pull off intimate performances really wonderfully - I had the thought "I'm hearing Andreas Scholl singing with John Williams accompnaying him - wow". And on last night of the proms. The organ sounded fine - seems to be holding up but I thought the recorded sound wasn't upto its usual standard, especially in the Constance Lambert.

I've had a look at the specs of this on NPOR. A rather nice 2 manual 14 stop Walker got mercilessly extended. In came EP action, thumb pistons, etc. This is the sort of work that should never happen to small organs. It affects everything - pipe speech needs altering for conversion from mechanical to EP action - it changes the entire instrument. There should be laws against that sort of thing. If they needed more power on the organ, they possibly could have filled the spare slides with a Trumpet and Mixture and not created a nasty behemoth that needs the maintenance schedule of a poorly cathedral organ to keep it running. Money badly spent. A straightforward overhaul, filling the spare slides if necessary with appropriate material would have cost less and have much better results. There used to be a similar walker organ in Winchester - same size and provenance, which had been untouched. It was easily one of the nicest organs in Winchester until its unfortunate departure last year.

In his piece in the Little Organ book in memory of Hubert Parry, Harold Darke calls for the Great Dulciana at the end. It's quite an important moment and the dulciana is just perfect for it. And you'd be accompayning it on the swell organ. So I'm afraid it's not as prescriptive as our flower boy says... But he is Belgian and I hope I can find it in myself to forgive him...

They do good restoration work - Romsey Abbey is often cited. But I know that a few people were upset to see the pedal action and stop action go there... Have'nt played one of their most recent new organs - what's the situation there- is Sebastian Mekin running the show. Peter Collins also does surprisingly good restoration work, so I'm told.

... I guess Robert Shaftoe falls into this category... only heard hearsay of his work from some eminent people... has anyone played and looked at one of his organs?

Interesting on 2 counts. We invited Bill Drake to look at our project - he seemed keen on it and our consultant was keen to introduce to Bill the idea of doing a project in the period you mention above. Unfortunately, this won't happen this time round. I also remember speaking with Bill about the organ at Exeter College while it was under construction. I got the impression that he didn't find the sounds emanating from Exeter were quite to his taste...

I understand that the fashion is for more foundational support these days and less upperwork. You could have your organ rebalanced this way with a bit of a rebuild - I understand the process is called "Romantisising your organ". There are some skilled men around that could romantisise your organ very well - our kind host, John Mander, would be one and I could recommend the services of a few others. I would go to someone reputable - otherwise you could end up with something very nasty that just won't last.